jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Mar 3, 2018 10:52:17 GMT -5
Please help me with this receptacle issue. I bought a large box full of these pre-wired quadraplex receptacles. Well made spec grade receptacles. It looks like the electrician bought the HOT in on each receptacle seperately via the black wire and red wire. SO cable with 4 conductors. green white red black Can I not connect the red and black wire together and then connect them to the black feed wire ? I get the ground. I get the white wire. It is the power leads that have me in a quandary. Thanks in advance.
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spiritstone
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Post by spiritstone on Mar 3, 2018 11:04:43 GMT -5
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Mar 3, 2018 11:18:50 GMT -5
Spirit, I think your video shows them wired for commercial code with right receptacle on one breaker and left receptacle on another breaker. That way you can run a 15 amp tool on left and a 15 amp on the right receptacle. I think. I am using most of these for smaller tools. So a residential code allows both receptacles on one breaker. Again, I think... I think this guy did it the residential way:
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spiritstone
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Post by spiritstone on Mar 3, 2018 11:39:36 GMT -5
I wasnt sure if you were hooking to separate breakers. The vid you posted is correct to me if your on a residential single line, your just limited on your power draw.
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Post by Rockoonz on Mar 3, 2018 12:15:31 GMT -5
Looks like it was wired for separate breakers, as already stated. I would run a jumper the way they did with the white wire for the common side, preferably with black wire. Your video for residential describes what you should do as far as connecting them. Again, if someone might inspect it avoid red wire unless you're using conduit and running more than one breaker circuit through the same conduit. If you're surface wiring check your local code to see if there's a way you can use romax like the guy in the video, I think I would have to use some kind if tray here but I have only done wiring inside of new construction walls or in conduit.
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Post by parfive on Mar 3, 2018 13:33:22 GMT -5
Make a point of grounding the box before you make up all the receptacle connections.
You see that 10-32 tapped hole in the back?
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Mar 3, 2018 15:48:15 GMT -5
Thanks folks. Just double checking. Never seen the dual breaker arrangement before. Deducted it may be for lots of amp draw/receptacle but was not sure. These will be for lights/foredom/other little stuff, no need for such high loading. Another dedicated breaker/receptacle circuit for a kiln that draws absolute max for 20 amp 110VAC. No other load allowed on that one.
I found about 40 of those dual receptacle boxes pre-wired with the feed cable chopped off. Electrician wired the insides really nice. Real handy to have prewired like that with all heavy duty spec grade receptacles.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Mar 3, 2018 15:49:10 GMT -5
Make a point of grounding the box before you make up all the receptacle connections. You see that 10-32 tapped hole in the back? Steel box, must ground. Thanks Rich.
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Post by toiv0 on Mar 3, 2018 18:20:36 GMT -5
Probably hooked to a 220 plug. Each side has 110. If I had a welding plug I would wire it red and black to each power lead, white to center post then green to ground.
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Post by catmandewe on Mar 4, 2018 0:32:30 GMT -5
Yeah your box is wired to use a 220 line, both red and black are hot on a 220 line.
Tony
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Mar 4, 2018 6:46:39 GMT -5
Yeah your box is wired to use a 220 line, both red and black are hot on a 220 line. Tony Probably hooked to a 220 plug. Each side has 110. If I had a welding plug I would wire it red and black to each power lead, white to center post then green to ground. OK then, you guys are saying that these receptacles could be simply wired to a single 220VAC breaker. Red wire was one 110 leg and black was the other 110 leg. so all receptacles might be right receptacle (red wire) to one leg 220, and left receptacle(black wire) to other leg 220 ? That would give 20 amps 110 to right receptacle and 20 amps 110 to left receptacle using a single 20 amp 220 VAC breaker I believe. I believe this is the way they wire receptacles in metal conduit using separate stranded wire in a factory. Because I remember seeing red wires in 110 conduit runs along with black white green.
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Post by toiv0 on Mar 4, 2018 9:22:31 GMT -5
Yeah your box is wired to use a 220 line, both red and black are hot on a 220 line. Tony Probably hooked to a 220 plug. Each side has 110. If I had a welding plug I would wire it red and black to each power lead, white to center post then green to ground. OK then, you guys are saying that these receptacles could be simply wired to a single 220VAC breaker. Red wire was one 110 leg and black was the other 110 leg. so all receptacles might be right receptacle (red wire) to one leg 220, and left receptacle(black wire) to other leg 220 ? That would give 20 amps 110 to right receptacle and 20 amps 110 to left receptacle using a single 20 amp 220 VAC breaker I believe. I believe this is the way they wire receptacles in metal conduit using separate stranded wire in a factory. Because I remember seeing red wires in 110 conduit runs along with black white green. Yes I think so. I am not an electrician but worked around a lot of machinery wired 220, 220 three phase and 480 three phase. Some places require an electrician to do electrical and some only a competent person. Welders are a good example of something you understand and use every day. I have a small dc welder that cah be wired 220 single phase or 480 three phase.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Mar 4, 2018 9:33:44 GMT -5
OK then, you guys are saying that these receptacles could be simply wired to a single 220VAC breaker. Red wire was one 110 leg and black was the other 110 leg. so all receptacles might be right receptacle (red wire) to one leg 220, and left receptacle(black wire) to other leg 220 ? That would give 20 amps 110 to right receptacle and 20 amps 110 to left receptacle using a single 20 amp 220 VAC breaker I believe. I believe this is the way they wire receptacles in metal conduit using separate stranded wire in a factory. Because I remember seeing red wires in 110 conduit runs along with black white green. Yes I think so. I am not an electrician but worked around a lot of machinery wired 220, 220 three phase and 480 three phase. Some places require an electrician to do electrical and some only a competent person. Welders are a good example of something you understand and use every day. I have a small dc welder that cah be wired 220 single phase or 480 three phase. Yep, wiring welders and plasma cutters has taught me a enough to be dangerous Billy. Just 110 and 220. That 3 phase stuff is probably at your clay mining sites. Wished it was here at the farm.
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Post by toiv0 on Mar 4, 2018 9:48:18 GMT -5
Yes I think so. I am not an electrician but worked around a lot of machinery wired 220, 220 three phase and 480 three phase. Some places require an electrician to do electrical and some only a competent person. Welders are a good example of something you understand and use every day. I have a small dc welder that cah be wired 220 single phase or 480 three phase. Yep, wiring welders and plasma cutters has taught me a enough to be dangerous Billy. Just 110 and 220. That 3 phase stuff is probably at your clay mining sites. Wished it was here at the farm. pretty much where I am also, dangerous and lucky....Billy with his melted screw driver in his hand. An electrician at a local iron mine a few years ago touched a hot screwdriver to his metal eye glass frames working on a panel. He died, be careful Jim.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Mar 4, 2018 11:31:34 GMT -5
Yep, wiring welders and plasma cutters has taught me a enough to be dangerous Billy. Just 110 and 220. That 3 phase stuff is probably at your clay mining sites. Wished it was here at the farm. pretty much where I am also, dangerous and lucky....Billy with his melted screw driver in his hand. An electrician at a local iron mine a few years ago touched a hot screwdriver to his metal eye glass frames working on a panel. He died, be careful Jim. I was a maintenance engineer. 10 years of 3 phase 100HP motors and starters. Felt the sting and burn of 277 3 phase more than once. Seen faces of people scarred for life and near deaths. Full respect for the juice in wires. One hand behind back and NOT near ground metal at all times when hot. Got woke up from unconscious grabbing two legs of 480 after boss miscommunicated and said it was turned off. Left hand to right hand, luck w/me that day. That boss got a serious cussing. He was rushing me that day and for that reason they had to hold me from getting him. I wanted to lock out. He did not want to delay.
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Post by parfive on Mar 4, 2018 12:44:03 GMT -5
If you want two 120V circuits in that box, a single 2-pole breaker is best option for the average knucklehead maintenance man that might take the boss’s word it’s all dead. : ) Also avoids the possibility of some nitwit overloading the neutral.
Drawback – you trip one circuit, you lose ‘em both.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Mar 5, 2018 8:50:58 GMT -5
If you want two 120V circuits in that box, a single 2-pole breaker is best option for the average knucklehead maintenance man that might take the boss’s word it’s all dead. : ) Also avoids the possibility of some nitwit overloading the neutral. Drawback – you trip one circuit, you lose ‘em both. I'll just jump the red and black and run it to a single pole 110 Rich. I have a lot of room for breakers in the 200 amp. Am actually putting receptacles on all 4 walls of the 25' X 25' basement walls. Unfinished so the wires can be stapled overhead all day. Several different colored 12 gauge Romex, fancy. Plus a 50/60 amp 240 circuit for a welder and a kiln used only one at a time. Just my home but a wife boss. Probably not supposed to wire nut solid wire Romex feed to the industrial stranded wire neatly utilized in the receptacles...doing it anyway. Those receptacles were being fed with 10 gauge stranded wire SO cable, I figured they were being used w/heavy electrical loads. Someone simply hacked the 4 conductor SO feed an inch from the receptacle. Innards done nicely with wire lugs. $20 for ~40 dup boxes w/spec grade receptacles.
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kskid
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Post by kskid on Mar 8, 2018 3:00:23 GMT -5
Hi jamesp - In the interest of safety, I may be able to clean up some not quite complete suggestions that have been made here. It appears that those receptacles were indeed wired to have each duplex (right and left) on a different circuit. 120V circuits - the application shown has nothing to do with 240V as a fellow poster suggested. This is also what is shown in the first video. This is called a multi-wire branch circuit (MWBC) and is typically done as a time and cost efficiency measure. The two circuits (here supplied by red and black conductors) are sharing a common neutral (the white conductor). This is a perfectly safe and common practice provided that all the associated rules are followed. As I recall, two things were left out of the video - at the service panel the two hot conductors must be wire tied together to indicate the MWBC and the two breaker toggles must be locked together with an approved device (not a piece of wire, nail, etc.). The man in the video also stumbled around a bit concerning which leg feeds the hot conductors. What he was trying to convey is that they must be fed by different legs, which will be the case if you use two neighboring breakers that can be locked together. These details are very important. If the hot conductors are from the same leg, and the neutral is interrupted (say by damage or an unsuspecting person "rewiring" something) a 240V circuit may be created and will likely fry anything else on the circuit (and possibly burn your house down). Additionally, if either one of the hot conductors are interrupted either by damage, cutting, or turning off only one breaker, the normally not-energized neutral may be energized by the remaining hot circuit. The unsuspecting handyperson or electrician who then touches the neutral conductor would likely be injured or electrocuted. Someone also mentioned the "jumper" between the neutral screws on the two duplex receptacles. Just to clarify - It is a code violation to connect two conductors to one screw terminal as it appears was done on the left duplex. I suspect what was done (but can't be seen in the photo) is that one continuous wire was used by removing a section of insulation and bending the bare spot over the screw terminal then continuing on (insulated) to the splice under the wire nut. This wire should not be black as suggested by a fellow poster. You also mentioned having 20 amp 120 on one conductor and 20 amp 120 on the other. You kind of mixed apples and oranges there. You would indeed have 120V on each conductor. Each may carry a 20 amp draw if the conductor is sized appropriately and the receptacle is rated for 20 amps (it will say so on the receptacle and the holes will be of a particular shape). I've kind of summarized and paraphrased here in the interest of simplicity, but I believe it is substantially accurate. I hope I haven't offended any of the gracious and helpful members who offered assistance. Residential electrical work is well within the grasp of homeowners who are diligent about learning and following the permit process. I've seen what happens when well meaning homeowners work on their electrical system and overlook important details. I'm not an electrician, so please don't take my comments as instructions. Better to use them as a starting point to get the facts. I hope this is helpful. Best wishes with your shop wiring!
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Mar 8, 2018 5:56:47 GMT -5
Hi jamesp - In the interest of safety, I may be able to clean up some not quite complete suggestions that have been made here. It appears that those receptacles were indeed wired to have each duplex (right and left) on a different circuit. 120V circuits - the application shown has nothing to do with 240V as a fellow poster suggested. This is also what is shown in the first video. This is called a multi-wire branch circuit (MWBC) and is typically done as a time and cost efficiency measure. The two circuits (here supplied by red and black conductors) are sharing a common neutral (the white conductor). This is a perfectly safe and common practice provided that all the associated rules are followed. As I recall, two things were left out of the video - at the service panel the two hot conductors must be wire tied together to indicate the MWBC and the two breaker toggles must be locked together with an approved device (not a piece of wire, nail, etc.). The man in the video also stumbled around a bit concerning which leg feeds the hot conductors. What he was trying to convey is that they must be fed by the same leg, which will be the case if you use two neighboring breakers that can be locked together. These details are very important. If the hot conductors are from two different legs, and the neutral is interrupted (say by damage or an unsuspecting person "rewiring" something) a 240V circuit is created and will likely fry anything else on the circuit (and possibly burn your house down). Additionally, if either one of the hot conductors are interrupted either by damage, cutting, or turning off only one breaker, the normally not-energized neutral may be energized by the remaining hot circuit. The unsuspecting handyperson or electrician who then touches the neutral conductor would likely be injured or electrocuted. Someone also mentioned the "jumper" between the neutral screws on the two duplex receptacles. Just to clarify - It is a code violation to connect two conductors to one screw terminal as it appears was done on the left duplex. I suspect what was done (but can't be seen in the photo) is that one continuous wire was used by removing a section of insulation and bending the bare spot over the screw terminal then continuing on (insulated) to the splice under the wire nut. This wire should not be black as suggested by a fellow poster. You also mentioned having 20 amp 120 on one conductor and 20 amp 120 on the other. You kind of mixed apples and oranges there. You would indeed have 120V on each conductor. Each may carry a 20 amp draw if the conductor is sized appropriately and the receptacle is rated for 20 amps (it will say so on the receptacle and the holes will be of a particular shape). I've kind of summarized and paraphrased here in the interest of simplicity, but I believe it is substantially accurate. I hope I haven't offended any of the gracious and helpful members who offered assistance. Residential electrical work is well within the grasp of homeowners who are diligent about learning and following the permit process. I've seen what happens when well meaning homeowners work on their electrical system and overlook important details. I'm not an electrician, so please don't take my comments as instructions. Better to use them as a starting point to get the facts. I hope this is helpful. Best wishes with your shop wiring! Electrical codes and law books are one-in-the-same when it comes to complexity. Let me pose this question instead. I do not want to have anything to do with a 220 2 pole breaker. Forget the 220 2 pole. I just want to wire two duplex receptacles to a 20 amp 110 1 pole breaker. Is this allowable by code ? If so, can't the jumpered white/neutral be wire nutted to the single white feed and the 2 black/hots be wired to the single black feed ? And yes, the neutral jumper is one continuos wire with insulation removed a short distance for the left side 'single wire' receptacle connection. So I would just wire nut one white wire to the white feed, two blacks to the feed. But one of the black wires is red in this case which is fine for me.
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kskid
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Post by kskid on Mar 10, 2018 1:31:51 GMT -5
Hi jamesp - "I just want to wire two duplex receptacles to a 20 amp 110 1 pole breaker. Is this allowable by code ?" Forgive me for quibbling, but we are dealing with your safety and all I have to go on is what your're telling me and a picture... If - the wires attached to the receptacles are 12 gage or thicker
- the receptacles are rated for 20 amps (the amp rating will be stamped on the receptacle & one of the slots will have a sideways "T" shape)
- the "power supply" wire is 12 gage or thicker and only has one hot conductor (typically black) plus one neutral conductor (white) plus one ground (typically bare copper)
then I believe it would be allowed by code (assuming you follow all the other rules like protecting the wire, using the right size wire nuts, etc, etc.) and should work as you described. And I agree with you - just treat the red pigtail as though it were also black. As I said before, I'm not an electrician. I only knew about the other stuff because I just recently had to deal with it in my house. I'm restoring a 1928 Craftsman bungalow that still has knob & tube wiring. I visit here regularly but am seldom able to contribute anything meaningful (shout out to Walt who was the first to welcome me!). I have a Lortone QT6 & have learned so much following all of you regulars. I think it's great the way you guys all share information & help everyone out. Thanks so much!
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