dilow
off to a rocking start
French woman from Brittany and not very good in english speaking :)
Member since March 2018
Posts: 11
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Post by dilow on Mar 21, 2018 15:04:32 GMT -5
Hello! A few years ago I invested in a lortone rotary trumbler (Model 33B) to polish the stones I usually pick up on beaches. Since i do, i have polished some of them with more or less success. My first difficulty is to evoluate the hardness. at the beginning, I sorted my stones by beach. My first tumbling was very disappointing. After a month of work, The stones were not bright and seamed "porous". Since then, I have corrected some things, such as cleaning the stones well before and after the steps. I also deleted stage 1 and decreased the time of the second and third Grinding stages. Finally, I am not totally satisfied with the result. Do I have the right size of abrasive? Do I let them trumbling long enough? Are the plastic pellets a good idea to make them clear shine? What about the soap to clean them? Here are some pictures of my stones. My last tumbling The next one! I look forward to your tips and tricks! Good evening
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Post by Pat on Mar 21, 2018 15:20:18 GMT -5
I don’t tumble stones, but there a lot of tumbling experts here.
Welcome from California. Where are you?
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dilow
off to a rocking start
French woman from Brittany and not very good in english speaking :)
Member since March 2018
Posts: 11
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Post by dilow on Mar 21, 2018 15:35:39 GMT -5
I don’t tumble stones, but there a lot of tumbling experts here. Welcome from California. Where are you? Hello Pat! I am French. I am from Brittany.
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Post by Peruano on Mar 22, 2018 7:14:52 GMT -5
You have obviously learned a lot. Because you are selecting your stones from the beach, you do not need the coarse (first) stages as much as you would if you were tumbling rocks from quarry or mine sites. If your rocks were photographed dry, then you have a good polish. There are many opinions on plastic pellets, but I avoid them and use other stones or ceramics to cushion or fill the load. Tell us more about the process you are using . We are interested in details. As to sorting for hardness, there are simple tables of ways to evaluate, but experience is a good teacher too. If it wears down faster than other stones it is soft, and if it doesn't it is hard. When you are tumbling a large variety of material sorting into the two basic categories is probably enough (it would be in my vibratory tumbler). Soft material does not slow the polishing of hard material, but when tumbled with hard material, the soft stones will remain matt or dull finished due to scratches from the harder material. At least that's the way it seems to me. Welcome.
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Post by gmitch067 on Mar 22, 2018 8:54:04 GMT -5
Welcome to the Forum dilow from Northern California! Mother Nature has done a good job of shaping your stones. I agree that the first stage can be either shortened or eliminated altogether. I think that I would NOT shorten the 220-grit run... I would make it longer... 1-week followed by a clean-out, and then a second week in fresh 220-grit. (Reason: The rocks might feel smooth in your hand, but for the purpose of polishing they are still too rough.) The amount of grit I use in a Lortone 3A drum (ALL stages) is 3 tablespoons. I also use 1-tablespoon of BORAX (for stages 2,3,4, and the polish stage). DO NOT poor out the loads that use BORAX on plants or the lawn... it will kill the plants. Stage-1 ~80-grit (your rocks probably do not need it) Stage-2 220-grit Silicon Carbide (SiC) - at least 2-weeks.. maybe 3-weeks Stage-3 500-grit Aluminum Oxide (AO) - 1-week Stage-4 (optional... but I like... especially for softer stones) 1000-grit AO - 1-week Stage-5 AO Polish (14,000-grit AO) - 1-week, then check (DO NOT clean out yet. The polish is still usable if you want to continue a second week) Burnish - 1-week (water with 1-tablespoon BORAX and a small amount of Ivory soap - or dish soap that does not have any extra additives) I started out tumbling using plastic pellets in the final polish stage but was never satisfied. I quickly changed over to using 20% small and 80% large ceramic media. If you are tumbling a brittle stone like Obsidian or beach glass, the ratio should be changed to allow more small ceramics (50% rocks and 50% ceramics). You should avoid ceramic media that has abrasives mixed with the clay. It will grind rocks too much in the finer grit stages, and you will loose your polish. I get good ceramic media from The Rock Shed in South Dakota USA, but that might not be cost effective in France ($$$!!!). A good lapidary store in your area will probably have it. www.google.com/search?ei=AbqzWoGRD5HQjwPr6Yj4DQ&q=rock%20shop%20BRETAGNE%2C%20FRANCE&oq=rock+shop+BRETAGNE%2C+FRANCE&gs_l=psy-ab.3...30519.35722.0.36903.10.10.0.0.0.0.94.838.10.10.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.3.270...0i13k1j0i7i30k1j0i13i10k1j0i8i7i30k1.0.FGSjQh3dGos&npsic=0&rflfq=1&rlha=0&rllag=47907909,-3225619,26312&tbm=lcl&rldimm=16302511501112009860&ved=0ahUKEwjLyd7ZjoDaAhVUVWMKHcqzDp4QvS4IRzAA&rldoc=1&tbs=lrf:!2m1!1e2!2m1!1e3!3sIAE,lf:1,lf_ui:10#rlfi=hd:;si:3496313526064986856;mv:!1m3!1d1210595.1490424555!2d-2.6070015359375702!3d48.36170957366231!3m2!1i742!2i685!4f13.1 To add to the above post by Tom Peruano ... 2 or 3 larger stones (greater than 4 cm) in a 33B drum will beat-up smaller stones and sometimes prevent them from getting a good polish. Only use one of those large stones per drum (along with the smaller stones). I hope this helps you. Glenn
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dilow
off to a rocking start
French woman from Brittany and not very good in english speaking :)
Member since March 2018
Posts: 11
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Post by dilow on Mar 22, 2018 15:36:52 GMT -5
Peruano Thanks for the advices !On my first picture, the stones are dry and poolished. On the second one, they are wet and rudes; I put them into the barril of my Lotone this afternoon! Stage-1 ~90-grit ( I deleted this step for those of the first photo) Stage-2 400-grit Silicon Carbide - 1 week Stage-3 800-grit Silicon Carbide - 1 week Stage-4 polish with aluminium oxyde - 1 week too I washed them with my dish soap. I read everyone here use Borax. Very hard to find it in France. I have to think of an alternative. I'm not sure what ivory soap is ...
gmitch067 Thanks too! your answer is well detailed.
I'll try this! Thanks for the advice What ceramic media looks like? I'm not sûre of what it is I have had a good laugh when I follow your google link. It brings me to rock (n roll) shops ! A lot! Thanks for time spending !
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Post by gmitch067 on Mar 22, 2018 23:07:23 GMT -5
Ivory soap is a bar soap relatively free of sweet smelling additives. I have a rather advanced phobia against the stuff... My Mother used to wash my mouth out with it as a kid because I was a potty-mouth... quite often... She finally gave up the practice when I joined the Navy and got a much worse case of potty-mouth. Then I joined the Submarine Service... She just locked the front door on me. Sorry about the link to the rock-n-roll shops... I tried... Here is the link (I hope) to The Rock Shed Home page. Goto "Rock Tumblers and Supplies" and "Rock Tumbling Grit and Accessories" and Page-3. You will get an idea of sizes, shapes, and cost USD. The 2mm ceramic media will work in a rotary tumbler as a cushion for fragile rocks during the polish stage - like Obsidian, but are a real mess to use in a vibratory tumbler (also a real mess in the rotary tumbler polish stage clean-out!!!). therockshed.com/index.htmlGlenn
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Post by rockpickerforever on Mar 23, 2018 7:49:55 GMT -5
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Post by Garage Rocker on Mar 23, 2018 8:29:24 GMT -5
Leave it to Jean. Doesn't matter what language, what continent...she's on it!
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Post by rockpickerforever on Mar 23, 2018 9:24:19 GMT -5
Thank you, I try my best. Just thought about it a moment, and realized searching French language webpages for words in English, not the ideal! Excepting, of course, internationally ubiquitous words, such as "Rock." Rock and roll knows no boundaries!
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dilow
off to a rocking start
French woman from Brittany and not very good in english speaking :)
Member since March 2018
Posts: 11
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Post by dilow on Apr 3, 2018 8:09:17 GMT -5
here are some news. Can not find ceramic media and borax. So I bought cracked walnut husks and chips of "Marseille soap". I still tumble my stones in the 90 SIC for 3 days. Now they are tumbling with 220 SIC since 1 week. I read the forum lengthwise, broadly, crosswise and I still have so many questions and uncertainty about the tumbling process !
What is the problem with silicon carbide in pre-polish stage? You seem rather privileged aluminum oxide. I have these kinds of silicon carbide 400, 800 and 1200. Can I use them serenely? And how many days for each great?
thank you in advance to all those who want to enlighten my lantern!
Edit: Just one more question. How to know it's time for pre-polish? what should my stones look like? If they are like scales on it, should I extend them to 220 grit?
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notjustone
spending too much on rocks
Member since January 2017
Posts: 426
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Post by notjustone on Apr 3, 2018 9:48:37 GMT -5
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notjustone
spending too much on rocks
Member since January 2017
Posts: 426
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Post by notjustone on Apr 3, 2018 10:09:10 GMT -5
coarse grit is to remove any pits or defects from the surface of the rock. not just round but smooth. even rounded beach rocks I run through coarse grind. they just don't stay in coarse grind as long. every week open barrel and clean rocks. then feel rocks if any part of it does not feel smooth it goes back into coarse. pull the good ones load new stones back in to make up for the ones you took out then start it again for another week. you cannot put a time on coarse grit like you can others. well rounded beach rocks may take a week where as broken chunks of rocks can take months.
when you switch to finer grits they remove only the scratches left from the previous grit. replacing them with smaller scratches. till the scratches are so small you cant see them anymore which gives you a polish. any defect in the stone after coarse grind will not be taken out by the finer grits.
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Post by aDave on Apr 3, 2018 19:47:17 GMT -5
Welcome to the Forum dilow from Northern California! Stage-1 ~80-grit (your rocks probably do not need it) Stage-2 220-grit Silicon Carbide (SiC) - at least 2-weeks.. maybe 3-weeks Stage-3 500-grit Aluminum Oxide (AO) - 1-week Stage-4 (optional... but I like... especially for softer stones) 1000-grit AO - 1-week Stage-5 AO Polish (14,000-grit AO) - 1-week, then check (DO NOT clean out yet. The polish is still usable if you want to continue a second week) Burnish - 1-week (water with 1-tablespoon BORAX and a small amount of Ivory soap - or dish soap that does not have any extra additives) Glenn, simply a few notes for comparison sake... 2-3 weeks in 120/220? Probably not needed based upon results I've seen with my stuff. Can it hurt? No. Is there a benefit? Not sure. We're not speaking apples to apples, though, as I'm using a 45C for all of my finish work. My 120/220 stage is only one week. I'm with you on the one week 500 AO, if you have inserted a prepolish stage for an additional week (1000 AO). But to this point, I simply do a two week, no recharge stage of 500 AO to try to accomplish the same thing. Fewer cleanouts make me happy. My polish stage with the same grit will kill you if you are impatient. I'm at three weeks right now...no recharge...just let it run. I was at one week, then 1.5 weeks, then 2, and now I'm where I'm at. Visually, there is a noticeable difference (no surprise) between one week and three week polish stages. I have not used a loupe to compare at any point, so all of my observations are subjective. My biggest issue, and it's only offered to save you some time, is your one-week burnish stage. I'm only burnishing for 4-6 hours before polish and after polish, just to help cleaning the rocks of grit or film. You can certainly run for a week, but I'm not sure that's needed. The Borax has no additional polishing effects...it only helps to clean. A few hours with that is probably all that you need. Of course, like many here offering input, my advice is only based upon my work. Take it for what it's worth. I'm just looking to save you some time down the road if it can happen. Oh yeah, I have to mention I'm a plastic pellet fan. They're used in all stages after coarse. Works well for me.
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Post by gmitch067 on Apr 4, 2018 2:51:40 GMT -5
Thank you aDave . The number of weeks to run Stage-2 220-grit is really subjective. I gather from her pictures that dilow has some well formed rocks due to natural beach surf grinding. If after a week of rotary tumbling with 220-grit she still sees a difference in textures under magnification (using a 10X magnifying glass), she might opt to recharge the drum with fresh 220-grit and go another week. When using rotary tumblers, I seem to have trouble getting polish out of some pits and crevices in some rocks. At the end of each week, I have been doing a complete clean-out by hand... toothbrush each rock under water, and use a water pic to irrigate the crevices and pits. The long burnishing stage helps clean them also. Maybe it is a bit overkill to run a final 1-week burnish stage, but it seems to help. I enjoy the hands-on experience. If the rocks show caked polish after they finally dry out and are on display I am unhappy. I also have a 300X microscope which I use to enjoy a really up-close experience... Any leftover grit or polish in the pits and and cracks is very noticeable. An exception to the 1-week burnishing... If the rocks are amethyst quartz or obsidian I only burnish for about 12 hours to lessen the possibility bruising (I also use more cushioning media). Glenn
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Post by aDave on Apr 4, 2018 11:30:06 GMT -5
Thank you aDave . The number of weeks to run Stage-2 220-grit is really subjective. I gather from her pictures that dilow has some well formed rocks due to natural beach surf grinding. If after a week of rotary tumbling with 220-grit she still sees a difference in textures under magnification (using a 10X magnifying glass), she might opt to recharge the drum with fresh 220-grit and go another week. When using rotary tumblers, I seem to have trouble getting polish out of some pits and crevices in some rocks. At the end of each week, I have been doing a complete clean-out by hand... toothbrush each rock under water, and use a water pic to irrigate the crevices and pits. The long burnishing stage helps clean them also. Maybe it is a bit overkill to run a final 1-week burnish stage, but it seems to help. I enjoy the hands-on experience. If the rocks show caked polish after they finally dry out and are on display I am unhappy. I also have a 300X microscope which I use to enjoy a really up-close experience... Any leftover grit or polish in the pits and and cracks is very noticeable. An exception to the 1-week burnishing... If the rocks are amethyst quartz or obsidian I only burnish for about 12 hours to lessen the possibility bruising (I also use more cushioning media). Glenn Hi Glenn. Actually you made a great point about the 120/220 stage as it related to the OP. I can see that length of time for someone who is bypassing stage 1, since there's no previous smoothing from a coarse grit stage. Since you mentioned those steps after the reference to your tumbler, I kind of read it as those were the steps that you used. I wasn't smart enough realize the length of time you mentioned was for her specifically. I completely understand the desire to clean the rocks completely. That's actually why I burnish as you do. I have to admit, I've never looked at my rocks under a microscope, so I've got nothing to compare to. I do know, however, that there's a significant difference in no burnish stage at all (since I can see polish in some cracks), but the 4-6 hours completely takes care of that. Again, and I think you realized it, I wasn't being critical at all. I was just offering to save you some time if it made a difference to you.
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dilow
off to a rocking start
French woman from Brittany and not very good in english speaking :)
Member since March 2018
Posts: 11
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Post by dilow on Apr 4, 2018 15:02:07 GMT -5
All this is fine gentlemen, but it does not answer my questions XD I decided to tumbler one more week in 220 for my hardest stones and the most tender, I decided to pass them to the pre-polish with 800. Wait and see
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Post by aDave on Apr 4, 2018 17:20:32 GMT -5
All this is fine gentlemen, but it does not answer my questions XD I decided to tumbler one more week in 220 for my hardest stones and the most tender, I decided to pass them to the pre-polish with 800. Wait and see What questions do you still want answered? There was alot of information above, and since English is not your first language, perhaps something can be explained better. The one thing that I am getting from you is that you are still tumbling hard and soft stones...maybe even together. While the soft stones won't hurt the harder stones, the hard stones will definitely effect the softer stones. Find information on the internet about the Mohs Hardness Scale. This may help you understand the difference. Just because rocks come from the same beach does not mean they are all the same hardness. You want to tumble rocks together that have similar hardness (7-8 for instance). And it is much easier to get a shine on harder rocks (agates and jaspers in the 7-8 range) then it is to get a polish on much softer stones in the 5-6 range on the Mohs Scale. For now, I would focus on the harder material. Once you get that dialed in, then perhaps you can experiment with the softer stones. Good luck. ETA: I did see one question or so that may not have been clearly answered for you. You asked, " Are the plastic pellets a good idea to make them clear shine?"
Some people like using plastic pellets, and others do not. I am one who likes to use them, and I use them in all steps after my first stage of 46/70 grit. They really don't have a direct effect on a final polish, as they are typically used for cushioning (to help prevent fractures, bruising, chips) or building up volume to the proper level in the barrel. The pellets also help to carry grit as you tumble your material. If you decide to use them, do not move the pellets with the rocks to another stage. Keep dedicated pellets for each stage. Grit can be captured in the pellets, so moving them along may cause contamination. If and when you decide to buy pellets, make sure they are the type that float in water. This makes it easier to skim the pellets from the surface of the water. You asked about soap. Many people here use Borax or shaved pieces from bars of Ivory soap. You mentioned you could not find Borax. The full name here in the United States is "20 Mule Team Borax." "Ivory" is a brand of soap here. It is unscented and has no additives from what I understand. It comes in a bar, and it is considered a very mild soap. If you can't find those items, do you have "Deft" brand soap? That would work for you as well. Lastly, "20 Mule Team Borax" is a laundry additive. A similar product would be called, "Boraxo." It's a hand soap that I believe is the same as the laundry soap.
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Post by gmitch067 on Apr 5, 2018 1:35:07 GMT -5
All this is fine gentlemen, but it does not answer my questions XD I decided to tumbler one more week in 220 for my hardest stones and the most tender, I decided to pass them to the pre-polish with 800. Wait and see The added week in the 220- Silicon Carbide grit is probably good for both 33B drums (one soft stones - one hard stones)... it certainly will not hurt. Take a few stones out after the week and wash and dry them (a hair dryer works well for this). Using a magnifier lens inspect the surface. If you see patches of beach-ground rough alongside patches of 220 grit fine surface area, put them back in 220 grit for a week more. (Note: after the 220 grit stage, it is more difficult to see any difference in the rock's surface texture - a 10X - 20X magnifier becomes useless at 800 grit.) You said that you are using 220 800 and 1200 grit silicon carbide abrasives. I started out tumbling with the same. Silicon Carbide (SiC) grit has sharp edges, and when it breaks down during the tumble, each resulting fracture will retain the sharp edges... it will continue to produce an efficient grind even as it breaks down. In 7-days of tumbling, the 220 grit SiC might break down to 440 grit and 880 grit (and grit sizes in between). So... the next stage is to use your 800 grit SiC for a week (both 33B barrels). The 800 grit SiC will also break down into finer grit during the week of tumble... 800-1600 etc. So far both 33B barrels (one soft stones, one hard stones) has gone through the same process. Now, after the 800 SiC grit runs, things change a little between the 33B barrels... The jump from 800 grit to 1200 grit SiC for HARD stones (6.5-8 Mohs hardness) is not really necessary. You can jump from 800 grit straight to polish (example: 14,000 grit Aluminum Oxide) and still get a nice shine. But for those stones which are soft (4-6 Mohs hardness) that jump from 800 grit to 1200 grit might be just what they need to produce a nice polish... many soft stones need that extra finish before the polish. Polish can be reused. After a week tumble in the polish. Do not throw away the polish slurry just yet... take out a few stones to wash and dry. Inspect the polish to see if you are satisfied... If you are not satisfied, throw the stones back into the barrel and go another week - or two with hopes for a better polish. Do not be discouraged if some of the soft stones do not polish well... or not at all. We all have our batches of failures... No matter how hard we try... Oh well... I hope this helps you. Glenn
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,561
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Post by jamesp on Apr 5, 2018 8:18:05 GMT -5
Since I have been tumbling glass over and over and over again I am learning a lot about the effects of abrasives because unlike rocks glass is all about the same. The glass takes out many variables.
I have a bottle neck at the vibe so I am running a plethora of different menus in the rotary tumblers since the rotary times are really quick on glass. You titled your thread 'questions jostle in my head'. As far as the effects in the rotary on glass using coarse-220-500-1000 in a variety of abrasive types I have about no more questions.
I have learned there is many ways to get to the end polish. 220 and 500 and 1000 can be done equally as well with aluminum oxide or silicon carbide. Just roll long enough to let the abrasives break down and is simple as that. However it is not easy to tell if 220-500-1000 sizes have broken down using naked eye. Reflection at sharp angles of distant objects or a lamp will tell you. 7 to 10 days for rocks of Mohs hardness 7 is a great rule of thumb for each step. 7 days for 6 -8 inch barrels and 10 days for small barrels.
Glass does not break abrasives down well but it cuts super fast. Going from SiC 30 to SiC 500 in the rotary with glass is not a problem because SiC 500 removes a lot of material off the glass since it does not break down fast at all. I was surprised at how much wear I was getting with SiC 500. Too much in many cases, I would have never guessed. It removes the pits from SiC 30 on glass many times over in 5 days in the rotary.
Aluminum oxide is a much slower cutting abrasive. But it sure does prepare the surface for a high polish.
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