conifer
off to a rocking start
Member since May 2018
Posts: 19
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Post by conifer on May 25, 2018 11:38:28 GMT -5
First of all - I appreciate everyone willing to share on this great (and friendly) forum. I have been reading a while, and have had some great results thanks to you.
Until recently I was rotary only but I just got a Lot-O to finish out my rocks. I have used it once, and I have a question:
During the polish stage the action slowed considerably and seemed to chip and/or undercut a few of the softer rocks. On day 1 of the polish cycle the lid popped off, and so I added some water since it seemed to be moving slowly, and I thought some water may have evaporated. I am wondering if I added too much water, or was it the evaporation (or something else) that caused the pitting on the softer stones? I should add that the harder rocks had an amazing polish.
I used the process outlined on the forum:
2 days 220 (with ceramics)
2 days 500 (with ceramics, and a few polished quartz pebbles to fill up the load since this was my first run with a lot-o, and I didn't want to introduce new ceramics.)
2 days 1000 (with ceramics)
1 day (with ceramics) in polish before aborting due to pitting on the quartz pebbles and undercutting on some jasper.
I was rather shocked when I pulled the rocks out after the 500 stage they had a very nice polish (likely passable results for a non-perfectionist). After the 1000 stage they had a very nice polish equivalent or better than any of my rotary attempts.
Thanks for your help!
John
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Post by grumpybill on May 25, 2018 12:11:03 GMT -5
I've only done about 8 or so loads in my Lot-O, so I'm no guru. What I've learned is that it's important to have lots of small filler in the later stages. Every nook and cranny needs to be filled. This does two things: 1. Having things tightly packed keeps the stones from being able to bounce against each other. 2. The extra weight dampens the vibrations, making the action gentler.
When you added water, did you do it slowly or just dump it in? I made that mistake once after the lid popped off. Washed the abrasive off the stones and it settled and packed in the bottom of bowl. Had to literally scrape it out and re-run that stage.
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conifer
off to a rocking start
Member since May 2018
Posts: 19
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Post by conifer on May 25, 2018 12:42:07 GMT -5
Thanks for your thoughts - You have 8x my experience ;-)
I just dumped the water in, although it wasn't much. The shrinking load could have also caused the pitting towards the end, but everything looked excellent after 1000.
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Post by grumpybill on May 25, 2018 12:54:29 GMT -5
Where did you get your polish? I used some generic polish (came with a used tumbler) in a load of glass and obsidian. It didn't add any more shine than what I had after 1000. I suspect the generic "polish" wasn't much finer than about 1200 like some of the stuff people were using 20 years ago.
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conifer
off to a rocking start
Member since May 2018
Posts: 19
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Post by conifer on May 25, 2018 13:38:29 GMT -5
The polish came from the rock shed. The rocks polished very well except for the few that were chipped.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,561
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Post by jamesp on May 25, 2018 14:26:09 GMT -5
Can you post some photos, they really help diagnoses conifer. Some rocks chip easily and make poor tumbling candidates, got to be stable enough to tumble. Impact forces in a vibe are substantial enough to break grit down quite a bit.
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Post by Jugglerguy on May 25, 2018 19:30:23 GMT -5
I’ve never had chipping in the Lot-O. I’ve had a few rocks break on a crack, but never multiple rocks chipping. The load should not reduce much in volume, except during the 220 stage, and that doesn’t even wear too much.
I’ve had the top come off before, but it has never caused a problem, even when it dries out a lot. I don’t ever dump water into my Lot-O except when washing the rocks between stages. If the action is slowing, I slowly add water from a squirt bottle. It doesn’t take much, just a squirt or two at a time until things speed up.
How much ceramic media are you using? You should be using about 30% for a load of typical rocks. More ceramics are used when tumbling cabs or something you want to baby a little more. They should be a mix of large and small or even just small.
The Rock Shed’s polish is good, so that’s not the problem.
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ingawh
starting to spend too much on rocks
The rock wants to shine, I just help it get there
Member since February 2011
Posts: 194
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Post by ingawh on May 26, 2018 3:27:42 GMT -5
Hi John, Welcome to the joys of the Lot-O! I've polished hundreds of loads in my Lot-O, and started with some botched batches, but once I got the hang of it, I fell in love with the darn thing, and now I swear by it! I agree with the folks that recommend adding water very sparingly. (Too much water can halt the rolling action and the stones just start chattering off each other. Been there, done that.) My polish slurry is made by starting with damp stones (no standing water), then I add 5-6 pumps of liquid handsoap and 1/4 tsp each of 500 AO and psyllium fiber (Metamucil) as a thickener. I use very small, well-polished quartz and agate filler. I usually let a 7-mohs load run for 24 hours. I check it after about 20 minutes and adjust, as needed, with either a squirt or two of water to loosen things up, or a sprinkle of psyllium if it's too foamy and thin. (My slurry is more of a gel than a liquid.) I check it again in an hour or so, then let it run about 12 hours, and check it one more time, and may add another spray or two of water, but usually not much. I do not follow the instructions that come with it and wash the stones and recharge with barrel after 12 hours. I let it keep running, because the AO is breaking down and becoming it's own polish. Often 24 hours is enough, but with softer stones like obsidian, 48 hours usually does the trick. Still, I do NOT recharge the barrel. I also use the quartz and agate filler with obsidian, (often at 1:1 or more of the filler, especially if you're working with larger pieces). I know my method is heresy to some folks, but the shine I get makes me really happy, and my method is so easy (once you get the feel of it) it's laughable! I have polished really finicky, chippy, stuff, like porcelanite, and my method is also super gentle and lets me coax a shine onto unusual stuff. I polished basalt recently that came out almost as shiny as my obsidian. (BTW, I make my polished filler out of aquarium gravel from Petco. It works better for me for bringing out a deep, liquid shine on obsidian than ceramic filler.) To keep the lid from popping off: Chain together some rubber bands (I use just 2 great-big ones, but a number of smaller ones would also work) and run them under the barrel, looping one rubber band around the lid from each side so that they cross each other and hold the lid in place. I like to polish large stones in the Lot-O, and sometimes they push the lid up, the rubber bands will pull it back in place and keep the slurry from drying out. Clean up is extra easy with my method, because the psyllium captures the grit and particles in the gel, which adheres to itself rather than the rock, so it pops out easily from any pits or cracks. In fact, when you get the recipe right, you'll find that at the end of the tumble, the lid is just damp, but doesn't even seem to have slurry on it. It's all down in the barrel and on the rocks, until you wash it off. Feel free to ask any other questions - lots of know-how in this group. And I love talking about this stuff! Best wishes, Inga Here's a load from the Lot-O, showing the actual proportion of filler to obsidian: Obsidian 2-14-15 by Inga Holmquist, on Flickr
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,561
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Post by jamesp on May 26, 2018 6:30:19 GMT -5
I polish 85 to 95 glass cabs every 2 days in the Lot-O using Rock Shed polish. 15 loads per month. I use use and swear by slurry thickeners in all stages. I am close to running 50 loads since purchasing the Lot-O a few months ago. They are repetitive loads so the statistics. For a 36 hour polish from pre-polish I use a 2:1 ratio glass cabs to polished quartz pea gravel. (about 86 glass cabs) For a 24 hour polish from pre-polish I use a 1:1 ratio glass cabs to polished quartz pea gravel. (about 75 glass cabs) For a 48 hour polish from pre-polish I use a 3:1 ratio glass cabs to polished quartz pea gravel. (about 95 glass cabs) The 2:1 ratio works best for a 2 day clean out schedule. The total weight glass cabs plus pea gravel is 3 pounds 8 ounces @ 2:1 ratio. An average glass cab weighs 12 grams. *There are no unusually large cabs that might cause bruising. This morning's batch: A few subsequent batches:
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Post by HankRocks on May 26, 2018 12:19:47 GMT -5
ingawh You mentioned using psyllium, Any issues with gas being created with this added organic matter. It may not be in the Lot-O a as the gas could bleed off(?) If I were to use it in a tightly seal rotary tumbler might be a different story. Thanks Henry
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ingawh
starting to spend too much on rocks
The rock wants to shine, I just help it get there
Member since February 2011
Posts: 194
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Post by ingawh on May 26, 2018 12:29:01 GMT -5
ingawh You mentioned using psyllium, Any issues with gas being created with this added organic matter. It may not be in the Lot-O a as the gas could bleed off(?) If I were to use it in a tightly seal rotary tumbler might be a different story. Thanks Henry Hi Henry, Thanks for the thoughts. However, the proof is in the results. I've used psyllium for years and years, no issues with gas build up. I don't think there's time for much organic action to take place, plus the handsoap quells the action. (I used to use psyllium in a rotary, where the time-span would allow gas build up. There, I used a tiny amount of bleach in the mix to stop the organic reactions.) I think a lot of the times the lid pops off for others, it may be the stones themselves pushing against the lid. But either way, using the rubber bands to secure the lid (see above) stops any such problem. Here, for comparison with my earlier image, is the amount of media I used in a batch of 7-mohs agates. (Disregard the Apache tears in the background - that was an earlier batch.) Laker batch with Media by Inga Holmquist, on Flickr
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ingawh
starting to spend too much on rocks
The rock wants to shine, I just help it get there
Member since February 2011
Posts: 194
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Post by ingawh on May 26, 2018 12:32:35 GMT -5
Jamesp - Your stuff is SO cool!!! Love what you're doing! (Fun to see your own shiny gravel filler - isn't that stuff awesome!) Cheers!
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Post by HankRocks on May 26, 2018 14:28:17 GMT -5
Ok, I will get a small container of the Psyllium to use and give it a try. Have been using pea gravel in my preform tumbles and in my clear quartz runs. May need to up the amount a bit based on what you and Jim posted. Performs have been coming out nice, the quartz not so much with the bigger pieces having some frosting on any sharp angles. Some of the Pea Gravel is not really rounded so I will do a sorting project to get a better set to use. Rounded makes sense as you would get longer contact time between all the stones.
Starting to cut some Obsidian slabs with the notion to make a good amount of preforms and begin tumbling those, hence the interest in the Psyllium.
Thanks
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,561
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Post by jamesp on May 26, 2018 14:35:01 GMT -5
Jamesp - Your stuff is SO cool!!! Love what you're doing! (Fun to see your own shiny gravel filler - isn't that stuff awesome!) Cheers! Thanks ingawh. The quartz pea gravel concept came from you and made a big change in tumbling. Georgia creeks are full of it and the landscape companies sell it by the ton. Often times 25% of it is the perfect quality for tumbling media. Interesting how the ratios effect the polish rate on a softer material like glass or obsidian. I did not mention that running 100% glass with no Mohs 7 pea gravel resulted in total failure to polish after the 4th day. These ratios sure seem to point at the need for harder media to break down the abrasives. And using unpolished pea gravel slows polish a lot. The pea gravel seems to get the polish done quicker as it gets a super polish and is well maintained. South Alabama is known for it's fine grained quartzite occurring in a myriad of colors from iron rich soils. Real easy to tumble polish. Next quartzite collecting trip the 1/2" and 3/4" classifier will be taken for sifting out multi-colored quartzite pea gravel. It would need to be tumbled and picked thru before serving as media. Might as well select the finest colors... Typical colors Typical quartzite gravel bar near Auburn AL.
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,561
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Post by jamesp on May 26, 2018 14:54:54 GMT -5
Ok, I will get a small container of the Psyllium to use and give it a try. Have been using pea gravel in my preform tumbles and in my clear quartz runs. May need to up the amount a bit based on what you and Jim posted. Performs have been coming out nice, the quartz not so much with the bigger pieces having some frosting on any sharp angles. Some of the Pea Gravel is not really rounded so I will do a sorting project to get a better set to use. Rounded makes sense as you would get longer contact time between all the stones. Starting to cut some Obsidian slabs with the notion to make a good amount of preforms and begin tumbling those, hence the interest in the Psyllium. Thanks Using higher media ratios and thicker slurry stones like fluorite and possibly even calcite might be tumble polished. Pick thru your quartz pea gravel and get the best - free of fractures and nice oval and round shapes. I bought a bag of ingawh's aquarium gravel the first time and ran 6 pounds of the best pickings till it was pre-polished using a 6 pound rotary. The landscape supply company sold a 5 gallon bucket full cheaply that easily produced over 10 pounds of el primo pea gravel. I just started running a few pounds at a time in the rotary with agate tumbles. I have a nice bucket full of them ready for service. Since you roll large rocks the pea gravel comes in real handy in the finishing stages of a large rock when using the rotary. The 85% barrel fill trick by increasing rock volume with pea gravel.
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ingawh
starting to spend too much on rocks
The rock wants to shine, I just help it get there
Member since February 2011
Posts: 194
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Post by ingawh on May 26, 2018 18:16:15 GMT -5
Jamesp: WOW - Love your quartzite gravel! I could happily just tumble THAT stuff [she says, trying not to be jealous :-D]
So glad you posted about trying to shine the glass with no gravel, and that it didn't work. That's absolutely my experience as well. We were all taught that you can't put a 7-mohs filler in with softer material, and it's hard to let that old wisdom go. But I find that when someone says the process didn't work for them, it usually turns out that their proportions were off, or the filler wasn't already well rounded and polished, or they didn't use the psyllium, or they used a different grit that doesn't work like the 500 AO, etc.
People also try using plastic pellets as a cushion instead - I did too, early on - but (aside from being a pain to deal with), I find they really just interrupt the actual polishing process. They SEEM like they should be a good idea, but they're counter productive, in my experience. It wasn't until I got rid of those "training wheels" that I started getting the polish I was looking for.
Anyway, don't mean to ramble, it's just fun to find someone else who's made the process work SO beautifully, and taken it new places. You're doing such crazy-great stuff with it, and it's really cool to see the photos of your masterpieces!
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Post by grumpybill on May 26, 2018 20:07:06 GMT -5
We were all taught that you can't put a 7-mohs filler in with softer material... And yet these same "teachers" recommend using ceramic pellets......
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ingawh
starting to spend too much on rocks
The rock wants to shine, I just help it get there
Member since February 2011
Posts: 194
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Post by ingawh on May 26, 2018 20:20:22 GMT -5
We were all taught that you can't put a 7-mohs filler in with softer material... And yet these same "teachers" recommend using ceramic pellets...... I won't argue with whatever works for each tumbler. I just like the shine I get better with my gravel.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,561
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Post by jamesp on May 27, 2018 1:48:01 GMT -5
Jamesp: WOW - Love your quartzite gravel! I could happily just tumble THAT stuff [she says, trying not to be jealous :-D] So glad you posted about trying to shine the glass with no gravel, and that it didn't work. That's absolutely my experience as well. We were all taught that you can't put a 7-mohs filler in with softer material, and it's hard to let that old wisdom go. But I find that when someone says the process didn't work for them, it usually turns out that their proportions were off, or the filler wasn't already well rounded and polished, or they didn't use the psyllium, or they used a different grit that doesn't work like the 500 AO, etc. People also try using plastic pellets as a cushion instead - I did too, early on - but (aside from being a pain to deal with), I find they really just interrupt the actual polishing process. They SEEM like they should be a good idea, but they're counter productive, in my experience. It wasn't until I got rid of those "training wheels" that I started getting the polish I was looking for. Anyway, don't mean to ramble, it's just fun to find someone else who's made the process work SO beautifully, and taken it new places. You're doing such crazy-great stuff with it, and it's really cool to see the photos of your masterpieces! Thanks for the words ingawh. The no media run had to happen. It was apparent after 24 hours a polish was behind schedule without media. That was easy. Running so many repetitive 2 day polish batches made experiments easy. Changing slurry thickness and percent (polished pea gravel) media told the story in a short amount of time. Mainly the media percentage because it takes up space. It all makes sense that the Mohs 7 media breaks down Mohs 9 abrasive because the silicon carbide breaks down much slower in the rotary tumblers tumbling 100% glass verses agate. When shaping it is desirable to not have the abrasive break down. Finishing another story of course. Similar pea gravel percentage in the Vibrasonic for pre-polish stage except closer to 1:1 ratio for the glass.(have not mastered the 2 step for glass ) Plastic pellets has no choice but to retard abrasive efficiency but if it serves as a protectant then a good thing. People should try to avoid them IMO and solve the protection problem using slurry and then media. Slurry seems the best because it has a good chance of being distributed equally by the mixing action and wastes no space.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,561
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Post by jamesp on May 27, 2018 2:30:20 GMT -5
We were all taught that you can't put a 7-mohs filler in with softer material... And yet these same "teachers" recommend using ceramic pellets...... If I used AO 500 on agate in the vibe the polished quartz media lost it polish the first day. The second day it started to regain it's polish. Early in the third day the quartz media had fully regained its polish in harmony with the agate. Replace the agate with glass and it took much longer to get the polish. Because agate will easily break down aluminum oxide abrasive. You have both agate and quartz media working on breaking down the AO 500, not with glass. Replace the Mohs 7 quartz media with polished Mohs 9 ceramic media and the same thing happens. The ceramic also initially loses it's polish when the fresh AO 500 hits it. But now you have a much harder media to re-polish, because the media whatever it is needs to get polished too. So my theory is that ceramic media prolongs your stages when it is used. The quartz media is a great balance. A good balance because it is hard enough to break down AO but soft enough to take a re-polish quickly. One media is Mohs 7 and the other is Mohs 9 and that can be a factor. Makes sense ? I have old round(ish) agate media and it behaves the same as the quartz pea gravel. Unpolishes and re-polishes quickly. But it was not as round and made it difficult to separate by screen through a 5/8 screener being a lot of flatter pieces. If we used diamond abrasives they would probably never break down. It is several times harder than AO and many times less brittle.(see Knoop scale of hardness). It would be great for shaping but would never conveniently breakdown like trusty SiC and AO for finishing. I think I got all this right. These are principles ?/philosophies ? that have worked.
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