hnhstngs
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since September 2018
Posts: 93
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Post by hnhstngs on Sept 4, 2018 21:17:51 GMT -5
Hi Folks,
First I'd like to thank everyone for this forum. It is an invaluable resource!
Now for my story/problem. I spent a little while on the Oregon coast and was lucky enough to find a mess of agates on the beaches there. Thought I'd like to have a go at tumbling so I got set up with a Lortone 45C and some grit and had at it. Two batches later I had a bunch of shiny rocks. Did some research and started hearing about 5 stage processes, slurry development, thickeners, etc. Figured it was time to get a little more serious about the process so I started a log and decided to add in some of the new techniques I'd been reading about. Third batch went in as usual (agates, some ceramic media, 60/90 grit, water, barrel filled to 3/4, in short everything I'd done before). Did a cleanout after about 17 days and went to 220 grit. This is when I decided to do something new and added a couple Tbs of sugar to the mix. Now I didn't have any white sugar so I added brown because that's what I had. Buttoned it all up and back to the tumbler. Everything seemed fine for a couple days but then I had to leave for the weekend and when I got back I had a leaking barrel and slurry on the floor. Opened the barrel and while there was some slurry left it was thick and not what I would call fluid. Rinsed the load and I could see there had been a fair amount of smoothing in the five days it had been tumbling but I'm not happy about the leakage. Now when I did the cleanout after the 60/90 grit I followed the same routine I had every other time. Scrubbed the barrel and lid down and used a brush on the lip to make sure there was no residual grit to cause problems. I cleaned everything again after the mess and recharged with fresh 220 and no sugar and the barrel has been turning away with no problems for the past two days.
So is this an instance that it wasn't if my barrel was going to leak but when and this was the time? Or did the brown sugar introduce something that made it go wonky? I have a sense that the sugar did improve the consistency of the slurry while it was in there and increased the effectiveness of the tumbling and may be something I just need to keep a closer eye on in the future. Or don't use brown sugar .....
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Post by gmitch067 on Sept 4, 2018 23:42:30 GMT -5
Can't give you a definitive answer to your problem hnhstngs... I have never used sugar as a slurry thickener. Your procedure seems adequate and I can see no fault there, although 17 days at 60/90 grit is rather lengthy - but not anything that would cause problems with the 220 grit stage. It kind of sounds like you had gas buildup that caused the seal to become unseated. This might be an isolated incident. I experienced a few "almost" blow-out incidents, but managed to catch them before they happened...one happened 2 days into the tumble (about the time you experienced when you went on your trip). I got into the habit of checking the drums a few times a day for internal pressure. It seems that when all is well, the bottom of the drum is sucked in a little (like there is a vacuum inside). If there is internal pressure the bottom pushes out a little. I then stop the tumble and open the lid to release the pressure (best cover it with a towel before you open it... messy!). I then check for water and add a tablespoon or so of baking soda to neutralize the acidity. You should also ensure that when you put the top on the drum, it sinks down a little below the rubber drum's top lip. The metal top is slightly beveled so when it seats on the rubber drum it pushes the drum lip over on top of the inner lid to keep the lid from blowing out. Glenn
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surreality
starting to spend too much on rocks
is picking up too many rocks at the beach again
Member since January 2012
Posts: 217
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Post by surreality on Sept 5, 2018 4:47:25 GMT -5
For what it's worth, I've heard a fair bit about it being 'only a matter of time' before this happens at least once. I'm pretty new, too, and the rotary I use is also a Lortone, with the same kind of barrel/lid system, albeit a different size. gmitch067's advice about being sure the barrel is very snug is excellent. (I'm taking notes about the baking soda, too.) You've probably heard all the tips about making sure the barrel -- around the rim where the lid sinks in, and the edges of the rim itself -- are super clean. Grit and tiny flecks of rock get trapped there easily and can be very hard to see on those black barrels, especially with the SiC grit. Make sure to scrub it really well with an old tooth brush around these areas for a good seal. It sounds like it's a lot of fuss until you really feel around the rim and see just how rough even a little bit of grit makes it, and that makes it much harder to get that solid seal you need. I go over it again with a toothbrush and some water and a paper towel after I fill the barrel but before I put the lid on, because it seems like there's always a few little flecks of grit that are almost invisible sitting there waiting to trip me up. Thanks to fernwood, I tried clay cat litter (not the clumping kind, it has to be clay) and found it worked very well. It doesn't even take very much. I've not tried sugar, but I'd recommend this over sugar for one reason only: if something does go wrong, it's going to be a much less sticky cleanup. I only need a very small amount proportionally and it gets the job done well. (I use a half cup for a 12lb barrel, to give you some idea. More than that and everything turns to very thick mud, fast.) Beach rocks (which are what I'm working with, too) sometimes have an outer layer of calcification on them from being in the ocean that I think causes some of the gas and bubbling, if you ever find bubbling in the first stages of running your tumbler. Rocks with an outer matrix seem to do this sometimes, too, and a lot of agates have a 'skin' like this on them. Whichever barrel (I have three running at once) has new material in it that's going in for the first time through will often have a little bubbling as this happens, though thankfully not too much (with one notable exception). Instead of running them for 17 days, I'd suggest doing a quick cleanout once a week instead. You'll use more grit, but if any of the stones have finished more quickly, you can pull those out to set them aside (keep them wet, a small bucket of water or a tupperware container will do!) and add in new material to fill the barrel (either plastic pellets or more of your rocks) as the rest keep going to smooth out.
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hnhstngs
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since September 2018
Posts: 93
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Post by hnhstngs on Sept 5, 2018 6:28:06 GMT -5
Thanks for ypur help! I thought seventeen days was a bit long too but I had checked and cleaned the load after seven days then five and five again. I regharged each time with fresh grit. They just didn't seem to be rounding as much as I would have liked. I will say the agates were pretty rough to start with. It seems like they were pretty fresh from the matrix and hadn't spent a lot of time tumbling on the beach before I found them. The clay sounds interesting and I can see where it would create a more viscous slurry. If I can find the right stuff I'll give it a try. Seems like I remember cat litter being made from bentonite or maybe it was kaolinite? At any rate the learning curve here if steep and so far I'm enjoying the climb!
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surreality
starting to spend too much on rocks
is picking up too many rocks at the beach again
Member since January 2012
Posts: 217
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Post by surreality on Sept 5, 2018 8:13:56 GMT -5
A lot of the guides that come with tumblers say to do a week in each stage, but that's almost never enough. Some folks have stuff running in the coarse stage for a couple of months, depending on the material.
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Post by grumpybill on Sept 5, 2018 8:22:30 GMT -5
The problem was likely the sugar fermenting in the barrel.
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Fossilman
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2009
Posts: 20,709
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Post by Fossilman on Sept 5, 2018 9:10:08 GMT -5
Why change your way of tumbling, if it was working for you? I'm also sure it was the sugar that caused the leakage also.... I always say, if its not broke, don't fix it.... Good luck..
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tkvancil
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since September 2011
Posts: 1,547
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Post by tkvancil on Sept 5, 2018 9:30:46 GMT -5
It was the sugar that caused the blowout. Anything organic can make this happen.
With all due respect to the OP who brought this up ... DO NOT use baking soda in a Lortone barrel, it is one of the things they specifically say not to do with their barrels.
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Post by Jugglerguy on Sept 5, 2018 14:47:05 GMT -5
I really think that all the additives recommended to new tumblers just complicate things more than necessary. Before taking anyone’s advice, I always want to see their results. If I’m not seeing excellent results from someone, I’m going to be very cautious about taking advice from them. I haven’t been good about posting pictures lately because I have been doing the same kind of rocks all summer. Here is a thread with pictures of rocks I tumbled in a rotary tumbler.. I also have much more experience with my vibratory tumbler than with rotary tumblers, so I don’t feel comfortable making too many suggestions here. I have done several batches start to finish in a rotary tumbler though, and have had decent success. The recipes I followed were from some people here who had outstanding results. The first member I read up on was rollingstone. This thread has some of the best looking tumbled rocks I have ever seen and they were all done in a rotary tumbler. He gives detailed instructions and there are no additives in his recipe, unless you consider plastic pellets to be additives. rollingstone doesn’t post as much anymore, but the current member that I see the best rotary tumbled rocks from is aDave. aDave doesn’t use any additives that I know about either. The only person on here who uses additives (clay) for rotary tumbling and posts excellent results is jamesp. I do admire Jim’s tumbling skills, but his tumbling methods are not the norm (PVC barrels that run at high speeds) and he has tons of experience. I feel that newbies with commercial tumblers should start out with basic methods and fewer variables. After they have a few successful batches completed then it’s easier to experiment because they have a control to compare to. Although I finish my rocks in a Lot-O, my batches start in rotary tumblers. I have six years of experience and have taken first and second places in the World Rock Tumbling Competition. When I started hearing jamesp talk about clay, I tried adding some kitty litter to my batches. I have found that by adding a bit too much, my slurry has become super thick and made cleanouts a real hassle. I have also added less kitty litter and had thicker slurry, but not too thick. I find it a tricky balance to get just the right amount. I haven’t found that the results are different than my normal results so I no longer use any additives. I do use a little borax in my Lot-O, but that’s for a vibe, not a rotary. I’m not saying that people shouldn’t use whatever additives they want to in their tumblers. I’m not saying that some people may find it helpful. I just don’t think that beginners should confuse things by adding anything but the basics. If additives are recommended to beginners, there should be very clear amounts included.
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Post by Jugglerguy on Sept 5, 2018 14:48:27 GMT -5
Oops, I forgot to say “welcome to the forum hnhstngs!”
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Post by gmitch067 on Sept 6, 2018 1:03:08 GMT -5
It was the sugar that caused the blowout. Anything organic can make this happen. With all due respect to the OP who brought this up ... DO NOT use baking soda in a Lortone barrel, it is one of the things they specifically say not to do with their barrels. Good to know tkvancil ... Thank you for pointing this out! I will stop using baking soda. If there is something happening that causes gas buildup, is there something else I can add? Glenn
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,561
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Post by jamesp on Sept 6, 2018 8:17:52 GMT -5
Clay, kitty litter, used slurry, it is all basically finely ground up rocks. They are all slick and help lubricate, and make the water heavier to help float coarse grit. It also sticks the coarse grit to the rocks and keeps the abrasive attached to the rocks for more efficient grinding. It also creates more grinding force by sucking your rocks together via cohesive forces.
I never coarse grind with out it. It speeds my coarse grind 3X to 4X faster. But I add coarse grit every 2 days, not on weekly intervals because my coarse grit is spent after 2 days using clay. Not a fan of rolling rocks with spent grit. Most all commercial abrasive operations use abrasive carriers(slurry). Just my way. Many ways, many paths.
No organics during coarse grind, only makes trouble.
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Post by fernwood on Sept 6, 2018 9:05:03 GMT -5
I am following jamesp advice on the kitty litter and have had great results. Also save the slurry as a starter for all stages, even polish. That helps as well. Saves a couple of days. Found that when I do not use the litter, my current coarse and medium grits do not break down. Been washing everything between stages and filtering out the unspent grit. When dried it looks just like the unused grit. Very strange. The litter helps encourage the grit to do what it should. I have never changed out the coarse grit when using the litter. After 7-10 days, all in tumbler were ready for next stage. These were mostly harder stones. The only time I am adding anything now is detergent for a cleaning tumble between stages and final cleaning after polish. Seems to be working good. Granted, I am only on my 5th and 6th modern day tumble, but did many in the 70's through the 90's. My how things have changed since then.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,561
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Post by jamesp on Sept 6, 2018 9:21:42 GMT -5
I am following jamesp advice on the kitty litter and have had great results. Also save the slurry as a starter for all stages, even polish. That helps as well. Saves a couple of days. Found that when I do not use the litter, my current coarse and medium grits do not break down. Been washing everything between stages and filtering out the unspent grit. When dried it looks just like the unused grit. Very strange. The litter helps encourage the grit to do what it should. I have never changed out the coarse grit when using the litter. After 7-10 days, all in tumbler were ready for next stage. These were mostly harder stones. The only time I am adding anything now is detergent for a cleaning tumble between stages and final cleaning after polish. Seems to be working good. Granted, I am only on my 5th and 6th modern day tumble, but did many in the 70's through the 90's. My how things have changed since then. Best to use a clay/slurry base thickener to get that coarse grit circulating well the minute you turn that tumbler on Beth. For those on 7 day clean outs or grit additions it doesn't matter so much.
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hnhstngs
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since September 2018
Posts: 93
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Post by hnhstngs on Sept 6, 2018 9:41:08 GMT -5
This place is great! The information, suggestions, and advice are greatly appreciated and invaluable for folks like me who are just getting started. It is especially helpful to read about different techniques all designed to reach the same goal and the rationale behind why they are used.
Only got two tumblers running so far but I can see this is going to be a slippery slope ...
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Sept 6, 2018 10:14:49 GMT -5
I am on the no additives side of the fence. I only rotary in stage one and I only use Lortone 12 pound barrels for stage one. My one pound of 46/70 grit is 100% used after 5-7 days and I have always been pleased with the amount of change to the rocks per week. Barrel size makes a difference. If you are using a 3 pound barrel it will not be as effective at breaking down grit. 60/90 is better suited for 3 pound barrels and even then sometimes grit is remaining after 7 days even with no additives. I agree with the advice of sticking with a basic (common) set of instructions then with experience you can start experimenting if needed.
Chuck
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Post by fernwood on Sept 6, 2018 10:40:40 GMT -5
Oh yes. The litter goes in at the start before the barrel is started. Makes a huge difference.
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Post by miket on Sept 6, 2018 11:04:18 GMT -5
This place is great! The information, suggestions, and advice are greatly appreciated and invaluable for folks like me who are just getting started. It is especially helpful to read about different techniques all designed to reach the same goal and the rationale behind why they are used. Only got two tumblers running so far but I can see this is going to be a slippery slope ... Welcome to the slippery slope! I only started collecting in March of this year. Then I borrowed a tumbler. Then started cutting rocks with my tile saw. Now I want a bigger tumbler(or tumblers) and a better saw, and I'd like to start cabbing. A slippery slope, indeed. This is a very, very good site with great people.
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Post by TheRock on Sept 6, 2018 17:23:43 GMT -5
I Used to use a Lortone Tumbler I have had the 33B's and the QT66's I Only use them for Dry Use Now aka Corn Cob Media. I Use all Wing Nut Type Lids Thumbler B's I Spin 4 of them along with a Diamond Pacific 40T and haven't had not 1 Problem. Like Rob I was using too much Kitty Litter I now use two Tablespoons in The Thumbler B's and with the Wing Nutts Id like to see the Lid start leaking NOW! The Clay Kitty Litter works keeping the Grit In Suspension and contacting the Rock's. I don't have time to play the by guess or by Golly I solved it by taking the problem out of the equation plain and simple!
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Sept 6, 2018 18:01:54 GMT -5
I Used to use a Lortone Tumbler I have had the 33B's and the QT66's I Only use them for Dry Use Now aka Corn Cob Media. I Use all Wing Nut Type Lids Thumbler B's I Spin 4 of them along with a Diamond Pacific 40T and haven't had not 1 Problem. Like Rob I was using too much Kitty Litter I now use two Tablespoons in The Thumbler B's and with the Wing Nutts Id like to see the Lid start leaking NOW! The Clay Kitty Litter works keeping the Grit In Suspension and contacting the Rock's. I don't have time to play the by guess or by Golly I solved it by taking the problem out of the equation plain and simple! I disagree. How many batches did you finish in your pretty Lortone tumblers (without any additives) before deciding they were no good and started bashing them here? I have been tumbling in large quantities in nothing but Lortone barrels for six years and have not had one single leak. In those six years I have finished about 250-300 batches so do the math on how much rock I keep rolling in stage one. If there were any issue with Lortone barrels I would have switched long ago. As far as additives go show me some data. There have been studies done by a long time tumbler here that showed kitty litter in stage one was not worth the headache. I post enough pictures here of my finished tumbles to back up my methods. Chuck
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