Wooferhound
Cave Dweller
Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,423
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Post by Wooferhound on Dec 23, 2018 19:36:18 GMT -5
If the clumping is only happening at the bottom, then the settling is only happening after you remove the barrel from the tumbler and lay it flat. If it were clumping while it was spinning, it would all be collecting around the outside. I suspect that everything is fine while it is spinning.
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Post by aDave on Dec 23, 2018 20:40:28 GMT -5
FWIW, the only time I had a caking issue is when there was too much unused grit at the bottom of the barrel. It was painfully obvious that the unused grit contributed to the problem..along with any other sediment to add to the problem. It's only happened once when I experimented with "recharging" and not doing a cleanout. That's why I suspect it's actually related to your unused grit (solids) immediately settling when you set your barrel down.
As far as a "soft stones" or a slurry issue, that in and of itself shouldn't cause a problem IMHO. I add old dried slurry at the start of my coarse grinds, and nothing has happened out of the ordinary. I add slurry...even if you had rocks that were too soft, I can't imagine them being the root of your problem. Besides, it sounds like you're on top of what you are putting in oonyour barrel.
I guess I'll ask this to go along with my thought process: As you broke up the "cake" at the bottom of your barrel, was it really gritty? If so, I'd lean to the lack of grit breakdown and the settling of the solids. If you were to tell me the mud was totally smooth, I'd rethink my thoughts. Then again, I think I know the answer since you're speaking to only 24 hours.
I don't know how you're loading your barrels, but I typically fill with rocks, add water, and then add grit.
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Wooferhound
Cave Dweller
Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,423
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Post by Wooferhound on Dec 24, 2018 7:41:58 GMT -5
The only time I have ever had this happen was when I was using AO Aluminum Oxide grit.
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Post by grumpybill on Dec 24, 2018 8:50:39 GMT -5
If it were clumping while it was spinning, it would all be collecting around the outside.
^^^ This ^^^ I've had that happen a couple times when my slurry got too thick and I wasn't checking it often enough. There was a layer of stones/mud "glued" around the wall of the barrel with only the stones in the center tumbling. I can't think of any mechanism whereby the mud/grit would build up and cake anywhere other than the lowest point.
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sactorick
having dreams about rocks
gemfield
Member since October 2017
Posts: 67
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Post by sactorick on Dec 24, 2018 10:40:37 GMT -5
I am using silicon carbide grit that I purchase from a well respected retailer that many here also use. At any rate, the method I use is standard according to instructions I've had and read here and what came with my Lortone tumblers. I put in the rocks, add water to bottom of the top layer of rocks then add the git. Then immeadiatly place on tumbler. I feel I'm doing this right, especially the last time as I'm being exact in how I do this because of the problem. I took the tumbler off and drained it right then, no time to sit and collect. The clump has always been at the bottom, not the sides. Also, this has happened with just agate in the tumbler with NO softer stones mixed in and the last time it was clumped too. Within just 24 hours. ( I know, it's too soon to check but it had happened after I tumbled for a week and it ended up clumped so I wanted to check it.) I appreciate all the input. I'm using all the suggestions I haven't already been doing. The only thing I can think of is to just tumble slightly over a half full tumbler instead of trying to load up 3/4 full. I still don't get it though. It must be the rain cloud over my head that follows me......
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Post by johnw on Dec 25, 2018 2:44:28 GMT -5
I am using silicon carbide grit that I purchase from a well respected retailer that many here also use. At any rate, the method I use is standard according to instructions I've had and read here and what came with my Lortone tumblers. I put in the rocks, add water to bottom of the top layer of rocks then add the git. Then immeadiatly place on tumbler. I feel I'm doing this right, especially the last time as I'm being exact in how I do this because of the problem. I took the tumbler off and drained it right then, no time to sit and collect. The clump has always been at the bottom, not the sides. Also, this has happened with just agate in the tumbler with NO softer stones mixed in and the last time it was clumped too. Within just 24 hours. ( I know, it's too soon to check but it had happened after I tumbled for a week and it ended up clumped so I wanted to check it.) I appreciate all the input. I'm using all the suggestions I haven't already been doing. The only thing I can think of is to just tumble slightly over a half full tumbler instead of trying to load up 3/4 full. I still don't get it though. It must be the rain cloud over my head that follows me...... I had the same issue with "clumping" of grit and stones at the bottom of my Thumler Model B after one week of running and figured the barrel was running too slow at about 21 rpm so I changed out the motor and got the high speed one that runs at 41 rpm. The clumping issue went away. If you can you may want to try and experiment with rpm speeds.. My Covington half gallon set-up runs at 40rpm with no clumping. In both cases I was always running Bahia's and ceramics as fill, so that part never changed. Good Luck and I hope you can sort your issue. Cheers, johnw
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sactorick
having dreams about rocks
gemfield
Member since October 2017
Posts: 67
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Post by sactorick on Dec 25, 2018 8:30:17 GMT -5
I am using silicon carbide grit that I purchase from a well respected retailer that many here also use. At any rate, the method I use is standard according to instructions I've had and read here and what came with my Lortone tumblers. I put in the rocks, add water to bottom of the top layer of rocks then add the git. Then immeadiatly place on tumbler. I feel I'm doing this right, especially the last time as I'm being exact in how I do this because of the problem. I took the tumbler off and drained it right then, no time to sit and collect. The clump has always been at the bottom, not the sides. Also, this has happened with just agate in the tumbler with NO softer stones mixed in and the last time it was clumped too. Within just 24 hours. ( I know, it's too soon to check but it had happened after I tumbled for a week and it ended up clumped so I wanted to check it.) I appreciate all the input. I'm using all the suggestions I haven't already been doing. The only thing I can think of is to just tumble slightly over a half full tumbler instead of trying to load up 3/4 full. I still don't get it though. It must be the rain cloud over my head that follows me...... I had the same issue with "clumping" of grit and stones at the bottom of my Thumler Model B after one week of running and figured the barrel was running too slow at about 21 rpm so I changed out the motor and got the high speed one that runs at 41 rpm. The clumping issue went away. If you can you may want to try and experiment with rpm speeds.. My Covington half gallon set-up runs at 40rpm with no clumping. In both cases I was always running Bahia's and ceramics as fill, so that part never changed. Good Luck and I hope you can sort your issue. Cheers, johnw I think you might have come up with the problem, John. As I think about it, the Lortone 33B looks to be running maybe just a little slower. I don't think I'll change the motor but perhaps the belt needs tightening. I'll check it out.
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Post by arghvark on Dec 25, 2018 8:37:14 GMT -5
If the clumping is only happening at the bottom, then the settling is only happening after you remove the barrel from the tumbler and lay it flat. If it were clumping while it was spinning, it would all be collecting around the outside. I suspect that everything is fine while it is spinning. +1 on this. It just doesn't make sense for this clumping/caking at the bottom only to be occurring when the barrel is horizontal. Be patient, let 'er roll. Argh
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sactorick
having dreams about rocks
gemfield
Member since October 2017
Posts: 67
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Post by sactorick on Dec 25, 2018 8:50:55 GMT -5
If the clumping is only happening at the bottom, then the settling is only happening after you remove the barrel from the tumbler and lay it flat. If it were clumping while it was spinning, it would all be collecting around the outside. I suspect that everything is fine while it is spinning. +1 on this. It just doesn't make sense for this clumping/caking at the bottom only to be occurring when the barrel is horizontal. Be patient, let 'er roll. Argh I agree, that's why it's so hard for me to figure out. I can say for sure that wasn't the case last time because I purposely emptied the barrell as soon as it came off the tumbler to see if that was the case. One thing I want to mention is that this doesn't happen every time. Most of the time, everything works as it's supposed to...
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sactorick
having dreams about rocks
gemfield
Member since October 2017
Posts: 67
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Post by sactorick on Dec 25, 2018 8:53:04 GMT -5
After reading Johnw's post, I checked the rpm on the lortone 33b. It has 3lb barrells. I timed it and it's making 46 rpm's. Is that within good operating speed for this unit?
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Post by toiv0 on Dec 25, 2018 9:48:19 GMT -5
If the clumping is only happening at the bottom, then the settling is only happening after you remove the barrel from the tumbler and lay it flat. If it were clumping while it was spinning, it would all be collecting around the outside. I suspect that everything is fine while it is spinning. +1 on this. It just doesn't make sense for this clumping/caking at the bottom only to be occurring when the barrel is horizontal. Be patient, let 'er roll. Argh When you take the barrel off hold it upside down. Cover down and open over a bucket and see if the clumping reverses in the barrel.
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Post by aDave on Dec 25, 2018 13:49:45 GMT -5
After reading Johnw's post, I checked the rpm on the lortone 33b. It has 3lb barrells. I timed it and it's making 46 rpm's. Is that within good operating speed for this unit? From what I recall, that is the proper speed + or - a revolution or so. I had an RPM discussion with Lortone a while back when I was dealing with one of my tumblers.
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Wooferhound
Cave Dweller
Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,423
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Post by Wooferhound on Dec 25, 2018 15:49:06 GMT -5
+1 on this. It just doesn't make sense for this clumping/caking at the bottom only to be occurring when the barrel is horizontal. Be patient, let 'er roll. Argh When you take the barrel off hold it upside down. Cover down and open over a bucket and see if the clumping reverses in the barrel. A little messy . . . maybe pick the barrel off the tumbler and keep it in that position, on it's side until the last second when you open it.
I am remembering that I flip the barrel a few times before I get to the cleanout sink to open it, to try and prevent this very thing from happening to me again.
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Post by johnw on Dec 25, 2018 15:49:26 GMT -5
After reading Johnw's post, I checked the rpm on the lortone 33b. It has 3lb barrells. I timed it and it's making 46 rpm's. Is that within good operating speed for this unit? Read this from Tumbler RMP thread from 2005: joe The Creator of the Rock God and Master of the Universe *********** joe Avatar Posts: 4,900 Location: Ft. Collins, Co. Nov 12, 2005 at 8:56pm QuotelikePost Options Post by joe on Nov 12, 2005 at 8:56pm Hi. I've clocked my Lortone 33b at 64 RPM right after cleaning, belt replacement, and lube. Then it slows down to around 50 RPM as the belt wears down. Sactorick: Also check this out there is a lot of really good information from the guys posting 13 years ago. forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/3096/tumbler-rpm
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Post by aDave on Dec 25, 2018 17:39:43 GMT -5
Read this from Tumbler RMP thread from 2005: joe The Creator of the Rock God and Master of the Universe *********** joe Avatar Posts: 4,900 Location: Ft. Collins, Co. Nov 12, 2005 at 8:56pm QuotelikePost Options Post by joe on Nov 12, 2005 at 8:56pm Hi. I've clocked my Lortone 33b at 64 RPM right after cleaning, belt replacement, and lube. Then it slows down to around 50 RPM as the belt wears down. Sactorick: Also check this out there is a lot of really good information from the guys posting 13 years ago. forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/thread/3096/tumbler-rpm Based upon a quick search, this guy's 64 seems to be a bit on the high side. Not saying that's a good or a bad thing, but there are plenty of posts speaking to the 33B running from high 30's to high 40's. This guy also participated in a few RPM threads, and his observations seem to be more the norm: Not trying to get involved in picking and choosing posts, but there seems to be a wide range of performance in terms of barrel speed with this tumbler. I don't own one, so I can't speak to it directly.
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Post by arghvark on Dec 25, 2018 18:54:56 GMT -5
+1 on this. It just doesn't make sense for this clumping/caking at the bottom only to be occurring when the barrel is horizontal. Be patient, let 'er roll. Argh When you take the barrel off hold it upside down. Cover down and open over a bucket and see if the clumping reverses in the barrel. Lol, of course! Such a simple method of verification.
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rockcat11
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since August 2017
Posts: 176
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Post by rockcat11 on Dec 25, 2018 19:30:39 GMT -5
Just throwing my two cents in. Has you water source changed at all? Maybe it’s harder water and some mineral in the water is reacting?
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Post by arghvark on Dec 25, 2018 19:32:24 GMT -5
I agree, that's why it's so hard for me to figure out. I can say for sure that wasn't the case last time because I purposely emptied the barrell as soon as it came off the tumbler to see if that was the case. One thing I want to mention is that this doesn't happen every time. Most of the time, everything works as it's supposed to... There are lots of folks on this forum who have vastly more experience and expertise than I do. But I thought I'd share: I have similar experience with obsidian only, and it's virtually every time. I've always attributed it to the material, partly because adding agate smalls diminishes the effect. But in considering all the experiences here, I'm convinced aDave's comment about grit that isn't exhausted is spot on. Lots of input here, and it seems to occur to different people, with different stones, at different speeds and different loading. When it occurs with my obsidian loads, there is invariably unused grit in that "concrete". Often after 2 weeks of roll. Going forward I'll be concentrating on developing a completely different slurry recipe to better use grit when rolling obsidian. As always, thanks to all for their perspectives. Argh
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kskid
Cave Dweller
Member since July 2014
Posts: 98
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Post by kskid on Dec 30, 2018 0:18:18 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply sactorick. Rocks & water at the top and clay at the bottom when the barrel is spinning on its side is puzzling. aDave beat me to my next thought - How long, in minutes and seconds, from the time you lift it from the rollers to the time you empty the barrel? Better yet is the suggestion to carry the barrel upside down or sideways. That will tell you if it's a "settling in transit" problem. Otherwise, we've exhausted my theories. Sorry I couldn't be more help. FWIW, my new Lortone QT 12 (thank you, Santa!) runs at 34 rpm.
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sactorick
having dreams about rocks
gemfield
Member since October 2017
Posts: 67
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Post by sactorick on Dec 30, 2018 13:13:59 GMT -5
Well, the last time I emptied it, all was perfect. I'm beginning to think that 3/4 full is still too much to fill these barrels. I don't seem to have the problem with slightly over a half barrel. I'd like to be able to fill it to 3/4 though. That's what most of you guys do, right? At any rate, the barrels weren't sitting upright at all because I empty them straight away. I'll have to keep experimenting but so far, I think filling too full is the problem.
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