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Post by Beachbum on Jul 21, 2004 23:08:42 GMT -5
As a newbe I was wondering what experienced people thought about tumblers vs. vibes. My Kingsley Cat. has a nice little Raytech 5 for $85 that seems like a good place to start, but I have zero knowledge about this. Seems addictive though.
Peace.
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donwrob
has rocks in the head
Member since June 2003
Posts: 509
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Post by donwrob on Jul 21, 2004 23:30:26 GMT -5
Hey BB, welcome to the RTH site, and yes it is super addictive ;D Here is the short answer, I run both a vibe and a roller. Vibes are quicker and I think polish great. But rollers, although a little slower, do the heavy work better. They will run courser grit than a vibe can, you have to start with medium grit (120-220) on a vibe. If you want to polish beach rock that has already had mother nature working on it, a vibe would be perfect. If you want to take cruched or broken rock and round it down, a roller works much better. I hope this helps explain the difference some, good luck dude, later Don
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Post by Beachbum on Jul 21, 2004 23:44:00 GMT -5
Thanks don. I brought home 3 or 4 pounds of marble pebbles (1/2" to 2") from a greek beach that can be polished to a matte or satin finish by hand with 2000 grit paper in only a matter of minutes. Since that will be my first load I may try the vibe. Also, since I live beachfront here I have plenty of smooth rock to choose from.
Peace.
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Post by puppie96 on Jul 22, 2004 2:44:06 GMT -5
I pretty much agree with Don, I run both also, and each has advantages. If you are looking for a more uniform rounded look to your results, then you are better advised to use the barrels. If you are trying to preserve the original shape, or just want to get a run done fast, the vibe is better since it cuts the time tremendously. You can do things like geodes and other rocks with irregular surfaces in the vibe and retain their natural features more easily. Raytech V bowls have been wearing out quickly for me and I have been very very careful about following directions and always watching this thing. Which, by the way, is another downside, the vibe requires a lot more watching and is much much noisier than barrels. That about covers it for the moment!
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Post by puppie96 on Jul 22, 2004 2:50:59 GMT -5
Beach or other rounded rock, as Don said, is great for the vibe. You can run a very brief rough grind (like one day) or start at one of the other stages and compare results -- recently I've liked the very brief rough grind and then moving ahead.
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llanago
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2004
Posts: 1,714
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Post by llanago on Jul 22, 2004 8:46:27 GMT -5
Hi beachbum, welcome to the board.
I also have a vibe and rotary tumbers. I use the rotary tumblers for the coarse stage and have started running all the other stages in the vibe. It's so much faster. I don't have access to all those neat beach rocks, so what I tumble needs a couple of weeks in coarse, sometimes longer, to shape them.
llana
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beachbum
off to a rocking start
Member since July 2004
Posts: 8
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Post by beachbum on Jul 22, 2004 11:39:19 GMT -5
Thanks a bunch for the replies. I think I'll start with the vibe for my beach rocks. Is the Raytech a good starting place?
Peace
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Post by puppie96 on Jul 22, 2004 12:56:33 GMT -5
I bought the Raytech because it seemed to be the most reasonably priced and available starter vibe for hobbyists. I can't offer any comparison since it's the only one I've had. I haven't been able to find a lot of info on vibes although in the last couple months there have been more posts here about them than there used to be, and that has been helpful. You probably should read everything you can find on the Rock Shed site and maybe email Shawn who is a great guy and always follows up with emails after every order. I believe they carry a different manufacturer's vibe and he might be able to give you some comparison info. If he does, I'd appreciate it if you'd post it.
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beachbum
off to a rocking start
Member since July 2004
Posts: 8
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Post by beachbum on Jul 22, 2004 14:21:44 GMT -5
The Rock Shop doesn't sell the Raytech, they sell the Thumlers Ultravibe which has twice the capacity (8lbs vs. 4) as the Raytech, and twice+ the price ($195 vs. 85). As a rock infant, I think I'll try the Raytech first.
Peace.
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Post by puppie96 on Jul 23, 2004 2:58:43 GMT -5
The amount the Raytech holds surprises you if you've been using 3lb. barrels for a while.
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beachbum
off to a rocking start
Member since July 2004
Posts: 8
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Post by beachbum on Jul 23, 2004 12:15:02 GMT -5
Yes yes yes I agree. I think I'll order a Raytech from Kingsley for $85 unless one comes up on ebay for cheaper in the next couple of days.
Peace.
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Boiler
off to a rocking start
Member since July 2004
Posts: 6
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Post by Boiler on Jul 29, 2004 13:18:48 GMT -5
Anyone have any experience with the 'Lot-o-Tumbler' sold by Rockshed?
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llanago
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2004
Posts: 1,714
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Post by llanago on Jul 29, 2004 15:15:16 GMT -5
I'm not familiar with them, but I went over and took a look. Looks like a nice machine. And if it really does take rough to high luster as claimed, that might be my next tumbler.
Be sure and keep us posted of your progress and results!
llana
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Post by connrock on Jul 29, 2004 18:26:19 GMT -5
Boiler,,,,,, I have 2 Lot-O-Tumblers and I love them.I've had one for about 5 years now and it still works great.The other unit was given to me from a friend.It was a used unit and in need of some work.I fixed it up and away I went. The reason it was given to me is that the fellow who had it didn't know how to use it.I tried to explain to him how to use it but he refused and mailed it to me. The vibe units can be a tad tricky to use but once you get the hang of it you'll love them. Not to mention the money you'll save on grit and polish. Hope this helps a little. Tom
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Post by cookie3rocks on Jul 29, 2004 18:59:33 GMT -5
Tom, Tell me about the Lot-o-Tumblers. Are the indeed vibes? Are the bowls round or square? I've never seen them, are they like Mini sonic tumblers I've seen in the Kingsley North catalog? Could a five year old ask more questions?
cookie
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Post by cookie3rocks on Jul 29, 2004 19:03:22 GMT -5
I've got a Raytech V5, it's all I have, and now that I'm getting the hang of it, don't think I want to use anything else. Except maybe a V10, someday...
cookie
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Boiler
off to a rocking start
Member since July 2004
Posts: 6
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Post by Boiler on Jul 30, 2004 7:38:37 GMT -5
Thanks... I just got my Lot-O-Tumbler yesterday.... I got it ready to go and put a first batch of rock in about 11:00 last night.... I'll keep you posted.
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Post by connrock on Jul 30, 2004 21:33:22 GMT -5
Hi cookie,, LOL Five year olds and questions!!WOW !! Here's a pic of the tumbler and yes it is a vibe tumbler. It comes with very specific instructions and if you follow them you should do pretty good with it. Here's the instructions that are sent with the unit: Detailed Instructions for the Lot-O-Tumbler & Lot-O-Twin Tumbler Step 1: Roughing. In the roughing cut the goal is to remove the undesirable outer portion of the agate. This usually takes the longest time and is not as critical as some of the other steps. With the Lot-O-Tumbler, use of a medium grit such as 180-220 (we use 120-220 grit) will do the fastest of removing this outer material. (The use of a coarser grit such as 60-90 silicon carbide does not improve the performance.) The grit has to cling to the agate as it rotates in the barrel. Coarser grit tends to fall off the agate as it rolls and delays the roughing action. In order to grind away the rock, the grit must be in between the agates when they come together. It two rocks merely tumble together, there will be a buffing action but the outer portion will not be removed. Anything which keeps the agate from coming together on the silicon carbide grit will reduce the action of removing the undesirable rock. The best action is achieved by wetting the rock just enough for the silicon carbide grit to cling to the agate as it tumbles. This is achieved by putting just enough water in the unit to insure that the agate is wet. If too much water is used, it will cushion the vibration and increase the roughing time. For a full barrel of agate in a variety of sizes, start with only the agate wet. If the agate cannot be rinsed in 12 hours add 1 capful of water. The Lot-O-Tumbler breaks down the 180-200 grit rather rapidly. Therefore, on the first two days of tumbling, there should be a fair amount of grit placed in the unit. The usual amount is about two tablespoons of silicon carbide. When the agates are washed daily mud and grit will be observed coming out. There should be a small amount of the original grit remaining to insure that the unit is grinding over the full period of time. On the last day of the 180-220 grit, it is best to use a light charge of silicon carbide so that all the grit will break down and the agate will start to polish. This insures that none of the coarse grit is carried over into the next polish. As the grit breaks down and the excess material is removed from the agate, mud forms inside the barrel. This mud tends to reduce the action of the unit so regular removal is important. The barrel and agate should be washed every 12 hours if possible. In this washing, where the same grit is used, it is sufficient to simply fill the unit with water and swish it around. For a faster roughing the mud and excess material should be removed every 12 hours. Some difficulty may be encountered in this first step if the lid pops off the unit. This is due to the generation of gas during tumbling. The problem can be reduced by punching a small hole in the top of the cap to allow the gas to escape without removing the lid. The normal grip of the lid is gas tight and should remain on the unit unless it is stretched by some means. In this case, a substitute lid can be used from such items as potato chip, dog food, or cat food cans. Step 2: Start of Finishing Operation. In the first step of tumbling agate, a rough grinding action is used to remove the undesirable overburden of the agate. This rough grinding action produces a finish which is smooth and is dull in appearance. In order to obtain a bright luster the external surface of the agate must be smoothed so that no visible scratches are seen. This intermediate polish or 600 silicon carbide type is added (we use 500F Grit). This insures the breaking down of the grit and less difficulty of carry-over to the polish stages. After 24 hours of tumbling the agate should show an increase in luster. In the Lot-O-Tumbler process, all that is necessary is the rinsing of the agate and dumping of all the old mud and grit. 1/2 teaspoon of the fine or 500F silicon carbide type is added. This insures the breaking down of the grit and less difficulty of carry-over to the polish stages. After 24 hours of tumbling the agate should show an increase in luster. In order to polish materials such as Apache tears and quartz, it is necessary to cushion the action in the 600 grit (we use 500F) and polish of the tumbler. This cushioning is easy to do by adding more water with the grit to reduce the action and bring on a luster to these hard-to-tumble materials. The grit and agate are placed in the barrel and enough water is added to be visible through the top of the agates. This cushioning material is adequate to produce a fine finish on hard to tumble materials without the addition of any other materials such as tumbling pellets. Step 3: Final or Polish Step (A separate barrel is recommended for this step). Before proceeding into this step all the material being tumbled should be removed from the tumbler barrel and inspected for any residue grit left from the previous step. The barrel, too, should be inspected to be sure that it is clean. If any of this grit is carried over it will continue to scratch the surface and prevent development of a high luster. With the proper amount of 500 grit there is less chance of carry over and less washing to be done. This polishing operation is accomplished in the same ways as the previous steps except that a polishing compound such as Rapid Polish or Tin Oxide (We have used both Tin Oxide and our Aluminum Oxide Polish with good results) is added instead of the silicon carbide. Again only enough water to wet the agate is placed in the barrel. Then add about 1/2 teaspoon of polish - just enough to insure a light coating on the outside of the agate - indicating that enough polish has been added. On the hard to polish materials such as Apache tears and quartz., the polish is introduced along with sufficient water to submerse the agate. This provides the cushioning action necessary to produce a shine on these materials, In some instances it may be desirable to operate the unit for more than one day to produce the desired finish. Usually one day is enough time, but longer times will not materially effect the agate and may produce a higher shine on hard to polish material but not on agate. Special Operational Procedures SLABS: Aluminum oxide pellets are recommended for slabs. To keep them apart and for faster grinding action. It is possible to tumble a full load of slabs in the lot O Tumbler by using the regular techniques described. Some difficulty is encountered if the slabs are not completely smooth, or are stepped by the saw cut. A longer tumbling time will remove the step. If the slabs do not seem to polish adequately, the difficulty is usually in the roughing of the slabs prior to polish. A fair amount of material must be removed from the surface the slab prior to polishing. This may involve considerably more time than the three days necessary for the round agate. More frequent washing is needed. Follow the normal instructions being used for cabochons below, after roughing to achieve a high luster in 4 days. See reply no 2 for the rest of the instructions. Tom
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Post by connrock on Jul 30, 2004 21:35:13 GMT -5
Here's the rest of the instructions cookie. This should keep you busy for a while!! LOL. CABOCHONS OR FREE FORMS: The finishing of cabochons cab be completed in the Lot-O-Tumbler, normally if the cabochons have been taken from a 220 grit silicon wheel. Normally the amount of material removed in one day of tumbling in 220 grit is equivalent to the thickness of the pencil line used to mark the cab, and almost insignificant in the mounting of the cab. Cabochons finished with a tumbler are sometimes more desirable than those finished by hand because the tumbler polishes both front and back of the cab. Day 1: Put cabochons or performs that you want polished in barrel, fill with aluminum oxide pellets to 3/4 full, turn on machine and add aluminum oxide pellets to get best rotation. Add 1/2 of red cap of water, 1 1/2 tsp of 180-220 grit. Run for 24 hours. Wash out and put contents back into barrel. Day 2: Add 1/2 tsp of Fine Grit run for another 24 hours and wash out. Day 3: For the best results we have found that on the 3rd day, to add 1/2 tsp of 1000 or 1200 graded aluminum oxide grit. Run for another 24 hours then wash out. Day 4: 24 hours , add 1/2 tsp of polish. You should have a great polish if you follow this. To help you in cleaning out the tumbler, about 1 hour before you wash it out, add a few drops of liquid soap and a small amount of water. You will find the stones will wash off sparkling clean. Note: Use very little water in each step as to much water only washes the stones and slows the action of the tumbler. APACHE TEARS: In the finishing of Apache tear, it is important to remember that they are delicate and chip easily. Care should be taken in the final finishing to prevent chipping. Tears are started in the same way as agate with 200 grit (we use 120-220 grit) and a small amount of water in the tumbler to assure fast removal of the extra material. This requires two to three days of tumbling. Wash away the excess material that has been removed and replace the grit after each day. After roughing in 200 grit, all of the tears should have a uniform surface. When the tears have been ground so that most of the chips in the tears have disappeared , the finishing operation can be started. The tears are placed in the barrel with enough water so that the water is visible down through the top of the tears, and 1/2 teaspoon of 600 grit (we use 500F grit) added to begin the polishing . After18 hours the tears will begin to shine but will still look cloudy and non-transparent. At this point all evidence of grit is removed from the tears and the tumbler barrel. The tears are put back in the barrel with water to cover and one teaspoon of Rapid Polish 61 or tin oxide for polishing (we have used both Tin Oxide and our Aluminum Oxide Polish with good results).. Two days is usually sufficient to produce a high luster on the tears. (Experimentation with a long period of time in the 600 grit will help the operator find the fastest time for polishing this material. When tumbling tears it is recommended that one tear be removed daily to use as a comparison with the progress of the others. If the corners are shining while the flat portion is still cloudy, a longer period of tumbling is needed to improve appearance. If the corners are checking out and the flat portions are shiny, the action is too aggressive. It is important to keep the tumbler as full of tears a possible during the polishing operation in order to avoid the too aggressive action. QUARTZ: All styles of what is normally referred to as quartz are handled in the same way as the Apache tears. The same method of roughing and polishing will produce excellent results. TURQUOISE: Turquoise is an extremely soft material. Care must be taken in the roughing cut so that not too much material is removed. Start with a 200 grit, or better yet, plastic pellet with grit imbedded and check the operation periodically. Intervals of two or three hours are usually adequate in the roughing cut if turquoise. The finishing procedure is the same as for normal agate but the polish will be less than adequate. After normal polishing the unit can be filled with water on the polish cycle to obtain a more lustrous finish. A dry polish is then required to obtain the best results such as that used to polish silver to brass (walnut hulls and red rouge). SMALL STONES: Small stones are processed in the same manner as other material of similar hardness. Sometimes the smaller stones will increase the weight of the tumbler and reduce the action. If the stones are all less than 1/4 inch in diameter, the load size should be reduced. LARGE STONES: Normally anything that can be put thought the lid of the tumbler can be tumbled. If one or two large stones are tumbled, the remaining load should be of small size in order to obtain roper tumbling action. It is not advisable to tumble just two or three large stones by themselves. Large stones are handled in the same manner as other material of the same hardness. A mixture of sizes in a single load is suggested. WARNING: If the material in the tumbler does not roll, difficulty will be encountered in all steps. A small load is one reason for lack of rolling. The other reason may be mechanical., lack of adequate anchor weight, broken springs or faulty motor. Cerium oxide has not proved to be a good polish for use in the Lot-O-Tumbler Plastic pellets are not recommended for a vibratory tumbler. The unit as it is shipped from the factory is resonantly tuned to provide the maximum amplitude of vibration under a full load condition. The tuning is accomplished by the position of the tuning bar which is underneath the springs on the motor end of the unit. Moving the tuning bar changes the amplitude of vibration. It is not recommended that this be done until the operator has become familiar with the unit. With the tuning set for maximum vibration it is important to have a full load of agate. Anything less than the four pounds which the unit is designed to tumble will generate an action that is too aggressive and could result in damage to the unit or to the agate. Do not attempt to tumble small quantities of precious material without providing a filler to bring the weight close to four pounds. Use a tennis ball with a hole, set in barrel instead of the cap for a few stones. be sure to add agate to the regular barrel. Taken from Instruction booklet for the Lot-O-Tumbler Tom
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Post by cookie3rocks on Jul 30, 2004 22:33:52 GMT -5
OK Tom, WOW! Thanks for all the info, I have saved this thread to favorites to come back for later use. Right now it's WTMI. (Way too much info) for me to absorbe, but very usefull. It confirms some theories I had about vibes. I've just started a batch of rose quartz, aventuretrine and amathyst. I've got a lot of 80 grit, no 220 right now (it's on order) so I started in that. Checked after 24 hours and, tho there was a lot of grit left, there was also a lot of grinding and slurry. I'm gonna go to just 220 for coarse eventually, jusy using up what I have right now. Thanks for the excelent info!
cookie
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