jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 26, 2019 11:27:25 GMT -5
Why so many different acids in this top soil vegasjames ? Was the soil at this location or washed in from another location ? A product of a lava flow ? The limestone layer is/was below and basically got dissolved by the acids trickling down from above forming the crystals ? Nice polish for such a soft stone, must have appreciation for high polish on soft materials.
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Post by vegasjames on Feb 26, 2019 18:34:36 GMT -5
Why so many different acids in this top soil vegasjames ? Was the soil at this location or washed in from another location ? A product of a lava flow ? The limestone layer is/was below and basically got dissolved by the acids trickling down from above forming the crystals ? Nice polish for such a soft stone, must have appreciation for high polish on soft materials. This area was once a hot spot for volcanic activity. Volcanic rock is found all over the place and you can find the remnants of various extinct volcanoes. Our soil now is actually very alkaline but back when this area was young and even tropical it was a different story. Some of the original acids would have come from the volcanic activity, which forms various acids but primarily carbonic acid and sulfuric acid. The sulfuric acid and iron from the volcanic activity would have led to the formation of the iron pyrite that eventually formed the laterite layer by oxidation and reaction with water mainly by rain to form sulfuric acid again and the iron hydroxide. Soil acids would also have formed during the tropical period here primarily by both plant acids and acids formed by soil bacteria as well. Soil bacteria can also convert elemental sulfur in to sulfuric acid.
The ancient ocean bed that was in that area is now about 30' under the surface below the crystal layer, which was formed as the upper layers of the seabed reacted with the sulfuric acid.
From what I can tell the water table had risen and fell several times as there is the beach rubble above that layer followed by another layer of crystal growth then the layer of dirt, decomposed gypsum and smaller rocks that were most likely deposited by dust storms and flash floods .
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Post by vegasjames on Feb 26, 2019 18:35:41 GMT -5
If you want to play with some of the mud and crystals let me know. I can throw some in a package and send them to you.
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cosmetal
starting to spend too much on rocks
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Post by cosmetal on Feb 26, 2019 20:21:38 GMT -5
vegasjames,
Is that an open offer?
I would appreciate playing in the mud - PM me with the cost to Sacramento, CA 95828.
Thanks! James
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Post by vegasjames on Feb 26, 2019 21:03:44 GMT -5
vegasjames, Is that an open offer? I would appreciate playing in the mud - PM me with the cost to Sacramento, CA 95828. Thanks! James Yes, I can send you some as well. Do you just want mud or some mud and crystals? I can put together a padded flat rate that ships for $7.35. Send me your address and I will get that together and go to the Post Office as soon as I can.
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cosmetal
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since September 2018
Posts: 115
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Post by cosmetal on Feb 26, 2019 21:50:28 GMT -5
vegasjames, Is that an open offer? I would appreciate playing in the mud - PM me with the cost to Sacramento, CA 95828. Thanks! James Yes, I can send you some as well. Do you just want mud or some mud and crystals? I can put together a padded flat rate that ships for $7.35. Send me your address and I will get that together and go to the Post Office as soon as I can. Many thanks! Will send you a PM. James
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 27, 2019 11:02:11 GMT -5
Why so many different acids in this top soil vegasjames ? Was the soil at this location or washed in from another location ? A product of a lava flow ? The limestone layer is/was below and basically got dissolved by the acids trickling down from above forming the crystals ? Nice polish for such a soft stone, must have appreciation for high polish on soft materials. This area was once a hot spot for volcanic activity. Volcanic rock is found all over the place and you can find the remnants of various extinct volcanoes. Our soil now is actually very alkaline but back when this area was young and even tropical it was a different story. Some of the original acids would have come from the volcanic activity, which forms various acids but primarily carbonic acid and sulfuric acid. The sulfuric acid and iron from the volcanic activity would have led to the formation of the iron pyrite that eventually formed the laterite layer by oxidation and reaction with water mainly by rain to form sulfuric acid again and the iron hydroxide. Soil acids would also have formed during the tropical period here primarily by both plant acids and acids formed by soil bacteria as well. Soil bacteria can also convert elemental sulfur in to sulfuric acid. The ancient ocean bed that was in that area is now about 30' under the surface below the crystal layer, which was formed as the upper layers of the seabed reacted with the sulfuric acid. From what I can tell the water table had risen and fell several times as there is the beach rubble above that layer followed by another layer of crystal growth then the layer of dirt, decomposed gypsum and smaller rocks that were most likely deposited by dust storms and flash floods .
Obviously carbonic and sulfuric acid have serious impacts on geology. This was information I have sought for a long time. It is more complicated that my tannic acid theory and thank you for correcting me. By the way, where the modern day floodplain topography has tannic seeps since the ice age ?? trickling/flowing down the banks of these tannic acid rivers it stains the coral to fine colors in these micro-habitats. Now I understand carbonic acid is a big player in the limestone rivers that I spend so much time collecting. Now I have an idea of how these river channels were formed and a direction to study. The forces at work ay your site seem quite a bit more complicated than the river channels over this way. Especially with the input of volcanic activity and related added chemistry. You might be interested in this typical 20 foot limestone wall created by the acid process. This deep limestone bedrock formed from a much older long lived ocean(or series of oceans). The coral was from a much more recent shallower ocean and it only formed on the top of this bed limestone at the modern day soil line so they call it shelf coral. It was a shallow (0 to 20 feet deep coral needing strong sunlight). It lays on top of about 10,000 sq miles of this sand/clay covered bedrock from Georgia to Florida. All at about 80 to 100 feet above present sea level. The top of the bedrock varies from below river level to as in this case 20 feet above this given river level greatly altering the quality of the silicification of the coral, not to mention if clay or sand soil is covering the bed limestone. The botryoidal pseudomorphs are generally found at or around this low river level, above or below this water level and only in clay. the bottom of these rivers is paved with coral, river being 100 to 200 feet wide, all of the coral sitting on the 100 to 200 foot width of limestone is now laying in the bottom of the river because the limestone dissolve out from under it. Anyway, it is a massive geological formation with regularity covering a large area and seems undisturbed by tectonic activity. And many of the silicifications buried and protected from freezes. The rivers cut across a long 'ridge' where I-75 basically follows from Valdosta GA to Tampa FL. Suwannee River about 20 miles west and downstream from I-75 in central Florida. This limestone bedrock averages 25 miles east and west of I-75 for about 200 miles. The dissolved limestone bedrock left some incredibly sharp chert and coral imbedded in the river bottom that will cut the bottom of a boat to shreds at the low water needed for collecting. Very few people travel this stretch at low water. So in this case the coral would be sitting on the shelf above the bedrock 20 feet above the river level. The dissolved limestone walls have crazy shapes. Most dissolve leaving a plethora of fossils and shapes of large living organisms that were silicified to some extent. So my interest in the acids. These are just plain demonic. Likely the small tunnels formed by bivalves. This is the typical shoreline for miles. No shortage of fossils and coral. Crazy limestone. Lack of tectonic activity...
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Post by grumpybill on Feb 27, 2019 12:40:13 GMT -5
jamespDo you know if fossil coral in FL falls under the same permitting, restrictions, etc. as fossil hunting on the Peace river?
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 27, 2019 14:16:17 GMT -5
jamespDo you know if fossil coral in FL falls under the same permitting, restrictions, etc. as fossil hunting on the Peace river? This is a complicated issue. NO digging for coral in any water way including floodplain. Loose coral is fair game in some cases. Park shorelines are off limits, however collecting seems to depend on which DNR officer has jurisdiction at a particular location. Florida has claimed all navigable waterways as state land recently and collecting may not be permitted at any of them. The Peace probably has the least restrictions.
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Post by grumpybill on Feb 27, 2019 14:33:54 GMT -5
Last fall I read up on the rules and came away thinking fossil hunting was OK anywhere in the state as long as you got the permit and followed the guidelines. Lots of gray areas, though.
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Post by vegasjames on Feb 27, 2019 20:45:50 GMT -5
The close up of the cliff looks like it was formed from a coral like maybe staghorn coral pieces that silicified.
Would be nice to kayak around the river. Very beautiful.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 27, 2019 21:08:56 GMT -5
Last fall I read up on the rules and came away thinking fossil hunting was OK anywhere in the state as long as you got the permit and followed the guidelines. Lots of gray areas, though. Since they declared waterways state property I believe the do issue permits for collecting. But many people dig coral and this is prohibited. So coral presents issues. I just quite going down into Florida and stay on the coral rich Georgia section of the Withlacochee. From Valdosta and down to the Florida line and the Florida border(The river is the state border for many miles).
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 27, 2019 21:11:03 GMT -5
The close up of the cliff looks like it was formed from a coral like maybe staghorn coral pieces that silicified. Would be nice to kayak around the river. Very beautiful. Yes these rivers are a trip. Lots of different types of treasures. Especially nice in the hot season.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Feb 27, 2019 21:14:24 GMT -5
The close up of the cliff looks like it was formed from a coral like maybe staghorn coral pieces that silicified. Would be nice to kayak around the river. Very beautiful. Could be staghorn James. There are hundreds of strange patterns left behind in those walls. Most leave fossil experts guessing.
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Post by arghvark on Feb 28, 2019 12:00:47 GMT -5
Super informative thread. Thanks to all.
But I'm still hung up on the idea of polishing bee-butts (opal stingers.)
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