EricD
Cave Dweller
High in the Mountains
Member since November 2019
Posts: 1,142
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Post by EricD on Jun 27, 2020 11:52:09 GMT -5
Wow! Terrific! So much for the sales guys claim that they dont make small HP motors with 3/8 inch shafts! I see these are both Air-Over motors. So am I wrong in thinking these motors require blowing air for cooling? I see the Motor Enclosure Design listed as "Open", not "Open/Air Over"
Edit: If you look at some pics on ebay you can see the fan blades inside Edit 2: Or the 360o view on grainger
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Post by HankRocks on Jun 27, 2020 12:31:29 GMT -5
So my replacement bearing arrived yesterday. Good news is that the 3/4" to 3/8" reducer in the old bearing was easy to tap out. Even better news was that the hole in the reducer where the bearing setscrew goes thru is not threaded and is quite a bit larger than the diameter of the setscrew so it was pretty easy to get the reducer properly placed in the new bearing. Put everything back together and the lap now runs much quieter, but now I can hear that the motor itself is kind of noisy making me think its days are numbered too. Since you guys were so helpful with the bearing, I was wondering if anyone can point me to a replacement motor. I called a local company which bills itself as the largest distributor of motors in the north east so I thought they could set me up. The guy I talked to wasn't too enthused to help me when I told him the motor didn't have a plate on it giving any specs. I told him it was a low HP motor, maybe 1/25 or 1/20 and it had a 4 post mount. Sounded like he'd reluctantly would do some searching until I told him my motor had a 3/8 inch shaft which is apparently not a standard size for these kinds of motors. I explained the bearing that is on the shaft and how it has a reducer that I could replace to fit any motor shaft he had, but at that point his only advice was to call a place that does motor restorations that would cost 300 to 400 dollars! This isn't my actual motor, but shows the type I'm looking for. I didn't want to completely disassemble my lap to snap a pic of the actual motor. Based on what knave said about his replacement motor, I think I would need something around 1/15 or 1/20 HP. It has 4 threaded mounting posts that are 2.75" (69mm) on center. The shaft is 3/8" diameter with a flattened side for a set screw although the diameter can be anything up to 3/4" and I'll get the proper reducer for the bearing. The shaft should be at least 1.5 inches long. It can probably be up to 2.25 inches long but I'd have to measure to confirm that. Motor_Example by Shiny Objects, on Flickr In looking at motors everything I've found so far are Air-Over motors which are designed to have air flowing over them for cooling. I don't know if this type of motor would live long without that airflow. My current motor has a build in fan inside the housing at the top that blows air over the windings and rotor while it is running. My current motor housing is 4.25 inches wide by 4.5 inches tall but the size of the replacement motor doesn't have to match that, it just can't be inches larger in either dimension. One other issue to be aware of, you might not be able to match the mounting hole spacing on the motor mounting plate if you get a different motor than what you currently have. The replacement motor I bought did not match so it was a matter of drilling new holes in the mounting plate. Getting them drilled so that the motor is still centered as much as possible is the only difficult part. It also helps to have access to a Drill Press. This is the motor I bought. Note the beefed up collar on the shaft protruding from the shaft. I seem to remember having to drill out the motor mounting plate for it. www.ebay.com/itm/Ao-Smith-CB2G011N-78-Ac-Motor-1-15hp-1ph-1550rpm-115v-ac/383575776742?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649Have you tired just searching Ebay for the same motor you have using the nameplate serial number? Henry
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herb
spending too much on rocks
Member since November 2011
Posts: 444
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Post by herb on Jun 27, 2020 14:08:44 GMT -5
Wow! Terrific! So much for the sales guys claim that they dont make small HP motors with 3/8 inch shafts! I see these are both Air-Over motors. So am I wrong in thinking these motors require blowing air for cooling? I see the Motor Enclosure Design listed as "Open", not "Open/Air Over" Edit: If you look at some pics on ebay you can see the fan blades inside Edit 2: Or the 360o view on grainger
My mistake! Great they are "Open" and not "Open/Air". Was looking at Grainger on my phone and don't get the 360 view there. Checked it out on my PC and was able to use the 360 view. Motor ordered, hopefully by mid week I'll be up and running again. PS: My old motor confirmed my suspicions that it might not have long to live! I started smelling a slight metallic burning smell. The motor was kind of warm but not hot, but I turned it off anyway. No need to wait for it to burst into flames ;-)
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herb
spending too much on rocks
Member since November 2011
Posts: 444
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Post by herb on Jun 27, 2020 14:12:17 GMT -5
So my replacement bearing arrived yesterday. Good news is that the 3/4" to 3/8" reducer in the old bearing was easy to tap out. Even better news was that the hole in the reducer where the bearing setscrew goes thru is not threaded and is quite a bit larger than the diameter of the setscrew so it was pretty easy to get the reducer properly placed in the new bearing. Put everything back together and the lap now runs much quieter, but now I can hear that the motor itself is kind of noisy making me think its days are numbered too. Since you guys were so helpful with the bearing, I was wondering if anyone can point me to a replacement motor. I called a local company which bills itself as the largest distributor of motors in the north east so I thought they could set me up. The guy I talked to wasn't too enthused to help me when I told him the motor didn't have a plate on it giving any specs. I told him it was a low HP motor, maybe 1/25 or 1/20 and it had a 4 post mount. Sounded like he'd reluctantly would do some searching until I told him my motor had a 3/8 inch shaft which is apparently not a standard size for these kinds of motors. I explained the bearing that is on the shaft and how it has a reducer that I could replace to fit any motor shaft he had, but at that point his only advice was to call a place that does motor restorations that would cost 300 to 400 dollars! This isn't my actual motor, but shows the type I'm looking for. I didn't want to completely disassemble my lap to snap a pic of the actual motor. Based on what knave said about his replacement motor, I think I would need something around 1/15 or 1/20 HP. It has 4 threaded mounting posts that are 2.75" (69mm) on center. The shaft is 3/8" diameter with a flattened side for a set screw although the diameter can be anything up to 3/4" and I'll get the proper reducer for the bearing. The shaft should be at least 1.5 inches long. It can probably be up to 2.25 inches long but I'd have to measure to confirm that. Motor_Example by Shiny Objects, on Flickr In looking at motors everything I've found so far are Air-Over motors which are designed to have air flowing over them for cooling. I don't know if this type of motor would live long without that airflow. My current motor has a build in fan inside the housing at the top that blows air over the windings and rotor while it is running. My current motor housing is 4.25 inches wide by 4.5 inches tall but the size of the replacement motor doesn't have to match that, it just can't be inches larger in either dimension. One other issue to be aware of, you might not be able to match the mounting hole spacing on the motor mounting plate if you get a different motor than what you currently have. The replacement motor I bought did not match so it was a matter of drilling new holes in the mounting plate. Getting them drilled so that the motor is still centered as much as possible is the only difficult part. It also helps to have access to a Drill Press. This is the motor I bought. Note the beefed up collar on the shaft protruding from the shaft. I seem to remember having to drill out the motor mounting plate for it. www.ebay.com/itm/Ao-Smith-CB2G011N-78-Ac-Motor-1-15hp-1ph-1550rpm-115v-ac/383575776742?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649Have you tired just searching Ebay for the same motor you have using the nameplate serial number? Henry There is absolutely no information on the motor! No name plate, specs, or anything. The motors EricD mentioned have the correct mounting hole spacing.
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herb
spending too much on rocks
Member since November 2011
Posts: 444
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Post by herb on Jul 4, 2020 15:30:33 GMT -5
So my new motor arrived the other day. I got the Dayton 3M573. The good news is that it is very quite. The bad news is that it appears to really be an "Open/Air" motor. I taped an indoor/outdoor thermometer probe on the bottom of the motor and ran it for less than 30 minutes with nothing attached to it, just the motor itself running. The temp went from a starting point of 19C (66F) to 59C (138F) before I turned it off since it hit its "40C Ambient" temp max. The Grainger website: www.grainger.com/product/DAYTON-1-15-HP-HVAC-MotorShaded-Pole1550-3M573Says the motor enclosure is "Open" I ended up getting the motor at electricmotorwarehouse.com: electricmotorwarehouse.com/4-4-fan-motor-1-15-hp-1550-rpm-cwse-115v-dayton-3m573/The electricmotorwarehouse site does say it is an "Open Air-Over" design. That is what I must have seen when I questioned the motor type but I ended up looking at the Grainger site later to confirm. As far as I can tell, the motors are the same. So now it looks like I am stuck with a motor I can't use. I have various left over computer fans. I suppose I could try rigging one of them up to blow over the motor. Not sure how much cooling these kinds of fans require. Probably will just have to try it and see what happens. I see the Motor Enclosure Design listed as "Open", not "Open/Air Over" Edit: If you look at some pics on ebay you can see the fan blades inside Edit 2: Or the 360o view on grainger
My mistake! Great they are "Open" and not "Open/Air". Was looking at Grainger on my phone and don't get the 360 view there. Checked it out on my PC and was able to use the 360 view. Motor ordered, hopefully by mid week I'll be up and running again. PS: My old motor confirmed my suspicions that it might not have long to live! I started smelling a slight metallic burning smell. The motor was kind of warm but not hot, but I turned it off anyway. No need to wait for it to burst into flames ;-)
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EricD
Cave Dweller
High in the Mountains
Member since November 2019
Posts: 1,142
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Post by EricD on Jul 4, 2020 21:12:56 GMT -5
That's funny herb . You can clearly see fan blades in the picture on grainger,can even see the blade tip in the photo on the site you bought it from, and it does not indicate that it is an air-over motor on grainger.
66oF + 40oC = 170oF
Edit: Disregard above temperatures. Max ambient temp 40oC means your motor can start at 40oC (104oF) room temperature and theoretically be fine. It is thermally protected, which means it'll shut down if the operating temperature goes beyond it's specifications
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herb
spending too much on rocks
Member since November 2011
Posts: 444
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Post by herb on Jul 5, 2020 7:27:22 GMT -5
That's funny herb . You can clearly see fan blades in the picture on grainger,can even see the blade tip in the photo on the site you bought it from, and it does not indicate that it is an air-over motor on grainger.
66oF + 40oC = 170oF Edit: Disregard above temperatures. Max ambient temp 40oC means your motor can start at 40oC (104oF) room temperature and theoretically be fine. It is thermally protected, which means it'll shut down if the operating temperature goes beyond it's specifications
Well, I learned something new about what "max ambient" means. The motor I got does have the internal fan blades and I confirmed they are actually turning. Sucks that grainger's site doesnt say "air over" since they own the motor manufacturer, Dayton. I think I'll try calling the place I bought it from and see what they say. Maybe they can tell me what a normal operating temperature for this motor should be but 140F seems very hot with no load
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EricD
Cave Dweller
High in the Mountains
Member since November 2019
Posts: 1,142
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Post by EricD on Jul 5, 2020 13:32:32 GMT -5
That's funny herb . You can clearly see fan blades in the picture on grainger,can even see the blade tip in the photo on the site you bought it from, and it does not indicate that it is an air-over motor on grainger.
66oF + 40oC = 170oF Edit: Disregard above temperatures. Max ambient temp 40oC means your motor can start at 40oC (104oF) room temperature and theoretically be fine. It is thermally protected, which means it'll shut down if the operating temperature goes beyond it's specifications
Well, I learned something new about what "max ambient" means. The motor I got does have the internal fan blades and I confirmed they are actually turning. Sucks that grainger's site doesnt say "air over" since they own the motor manufacturer, Dayton. I think I'll try calling the place I bought it from and see what they say. Maybe they can tell me what a normal operating temperature for this motor should be but 140F seems very hot with no load If it has an internal fan it's not an air-over motor. Most electric motors run in the 120-140o range in my experience. My Lot-O runs at 139o
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herb
spending too much on rocks
Member since November 2011
Posts: 444
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Post by herb on Jul 7, 2020 12:28:19 GMT -5
Well, I learned something new about what "max ambient" means. The motor I got does have the internal fan blades and I confirmed they are actually turning. Sucks that grainger's site doesnt say "air over" since they own the motor manufacturer, Dayton. I think I'll try calling the place I bought it from and see what they say. Maybe they can tell me what a normal operating temperature for this motor should be but 140F seems very hot with no load If it has an internal fan it's not an air-over motor. Most electric motors run in the 120-140o range in my experience. My Lot-O runs at 139o
I called electricmotorwarehouse but they have no technical support available at all. So I called Grainger and the tech support person I talked to said it is an Open motor, not Air-Over. He said it would be unusual for an Air-Over motor to have a fan in it. I asked him about the 140F running temp. He said that is kind of hot but not out of the realm of reasonable. He said the thermal protection in the motor is designed to shut off at 160-180F and that the wiring and insulation on the the windings is rated for 225F so I am not at the point of damaging the motor. I think I will rig up a small computer box fan to blow on the motor just to help keep the temp down. Hopefully my flat lap will be up and running again soon.
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EricD
Cave Dweller
High in the Mountains
Member since November 2019
Posts: 1,142
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Post by EricD on Jul 7, 2020 12:43:36 GMT -5
If it has an internal fan it's not an air-over motor. Most electric motors run in the 120-140o range in my experience. My Lot-O runs at 139o
I called electricmotorwarehouse but they have no technical support available at all. So I called Grainger and the tech support person I talked to said it is an Open motor, not Air-Over. He said it would be unusual for an Air-Over motor to have a fan in it. I asked him about the 140F running temp. He said that is kind of hot but not out of the realm of reasonable. He said the thermal protection in the motor is designed to shut off at 160-180F and that the wiring and insulation on the the windings is rated for 225F so I am not at the point of damaging the motor. I think I will rig up a small computer box fan to blow on the motor just to help keep the temp down. Hopefully my flat lap will be up and running again soon. Not necessary, but then again not a bad idea
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Post by HankRocks on Jul 8, 2020 8:41:24 GMT -5
If it has an internal fan it's not an air-over motor. Most electric motors run in the 120-140o range in my experience. My Lot-O runs at 139o
I called electricmotorwarehouse but they have no technical support available at all. So I called Grainger and the tech support person I talked to said it is an Open motor, not Air-Over. He said it would be unusual for an Air-Over motor to have a fan in it. I asked him about the 140F running temp. He said that is kind of hot but not out of the realm of reasonable. He said the thermal protection in the motor is designed to shut off at 160-180F and that the wiring and insulation on the the windings is rated for 225F so I am not at the point of damaging the motor. I think I will rig up a small computer box fan to blow on the motor just to help keep the temp down. Hopefully my flat lap will be up and running again soon. On a somewhat related note, I had to change out the motor on my FL-20 yesterday as the noise was getting a bit much. It took me just over an hour to disassemble, replace the motor, re-assemble and have it running. It was 92 degrees, humid and no fan in the garage, a real character-building opportunity.
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