entropy
having dreams about rocks
Member since June 2020
Posts: 71
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Post by entropy on Jul 7, 2020 23:16:14 GMT -5
I'm gathering parts to put an LS3 crate engine into a Miata (a completely separate project I'm working on). Is my Miata project a waste of resources - probably. It my Miata project a waste of time - probably. It my Miata project a waste of money - probably. Is my Miata project a waste of gasoline - probably. Am I ruining a perfectly good factory-built Miata - yes. So why put an LS3 crate engine into a Miata? In a way, it's for the same reason I want to clamp my HDPE tumbler barrels when I weld them.
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entropy
having dreams about rocks
Member since June 2020
Posts: 71
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Post by entropy on Jul 7, 2020 23:32:02 GMT -5
Its just my opinion, but since you asked: (Keep in mind, this started as a way to upcycle an inexpensive scrap of large diameter steel pipe...) To engineer and fabricate a 4 clamp system for 2 pipe diameters to achieve specified “bead-up” pressure, “heat soak” pressure, and “weld” pressure, all while staying within the “transfer time” window from mirror release to full weld pressure, then maintain that exact pressure throughout weld cooldown, etc. would take significant resources, time, money, brain cells, etc. When you COULD be tumbling already with a nice large DP tumbler at less expense. Why reinvent the wheel? 😎 fdotwww.blob.core.windows.net/sitefinity/docs/default-source/structures/cadd/standards/approvedptdrawings/hdpe-pipe-butt-welding-procedure_2-27-2018.pdfGood luck on your adventures. I’m hoping my skepticism can serve to goad you onward headstrong into the project, past the point of no return, so the world can benefit from near-eternal tumbler barrels. You would have a market with the reloading crowd. I'm not making a 4 clamp system. I'm not sure that radial-clamping is even feasible with 1" long rounds. Nor am I going to attempt making more than one weld at a time. My plan is to weld a short piece of 6" DR-11 pipe onto the 9" round (1" thick). I'd be using a simple hand-pump hydraulic press - no clamps (just pressing the 6" pipe onto the 1" flat). Then weld the cap/plate assembly (fabricated above) onto the 8" DR-11 pipe. Again, simple press - no clamps. Then weld a 9" round 1" thick cap on the other end - simple press - no clamps. Then I'd turn the whole assembly on the lathe - taking the caps & weld-bead flush with the OD of the 8" pipe, then bore the hand-hole within the 6" pipe. It seems pretty straight forward. EDIT: Clamping force can be achieved without literally having to use pipe clamps. For butt welding, clamping force simply implies an axial force applied to the joint. (edit complete)
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,155
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Post by jamesp on Jul 8, 2020 5:55:16 GMT -5
I used a 5 inch stainless steel water bowl with a vulcanized rubber bottom to set the rounded end of the end cap fitting on a corner of the kitchen countertop. Then I took the reducer fitting and carefully lined it up, then pressed down on it with my upper body weight to push it down onto the end cap(which was seated in the stainless bowl). Now this part is important. By soaking enough heat into the HDPE I could easily control the bead size that was pinched out. By 'soaking' both weld faces I could make a big bead or a little bead with little pressure. On both the inside and outside of barrel. I found the heat soak had much more to do with the bead size/quality than the amount of pressure. I did this on 8 barrels in one day. It took a few hours. I learned the soak time at proper temp controlled the weld bead. Not clamping pressure. This is why I posted the whole project on the forum, i.e. so most any average person with an electric stove and 2 teflon coated frying pans can make one of these barrels in his kitchen. And attain a sledge hammer proof weld quality. "If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear."(take the hint entropy). Lol, I am impressed with your sophisticated path entropy but hell's bell's son let this process be simple for the sake of RTH members.
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Post by MrP on Jul 8, 2020 7:16:51 GMT -5
I sure am glad that I did not have all this information when I built my tumblers. 8" scrap HDPE, 3/4" used white cutting board from a used restaurant supply store, 6" gray electrical conduit and two old electric fry pans. For what we use these for, even if the weld is not perfect, it is not going to break, mine are proof of that. I am very sure yours are going to look way better than mine but I have been using mine steady for 3 years. It sure is fun watching this thread though.................MrP Do you ever watch the TV show Gold Rush? I really enjoy it. It's too bad the environmental-activist politicians are killing the gold mining industry (by vindictively withholding water permits) - but that's a tangent. . . . They use HDPE pipe for gold mining - lots of pressure (well over 100 psi), lots of volume (thousands of GPM), and they drag around 1000 foot sections of pipe across the dirt with a dozer - and the welds virtually never fail (joints as strong as the pipe itself). Question: are pipe-quality welds necessary for tumbler barrels? Probably not (you have the proof). That being said - if something as simple as clamping the joint results in pipe-quality welds, then why not do it? entropy I have nothing against how you are making your barrels, in fact it is fun to see it done in the right way. I worked at a utility and once or twice a year they would rent a HDPE welder so I could have bought the correct ends, like jamesp did, and have used the machine to weld them. I have more $$ in this hobby, with no return, so being cheap I have made many of the things I need at little cost so I can put the money into buying rocks and equipment I can't make. I am also into melting glass, which makes tumbling seem cheap. All I was doing, by telling you what I did, was to maybe let you, and others, know that a person can do it on the cheap and make it work. I was born and raised on a farm and we had no money to put into hobbies. We picked 'pickles' cucumbers so we could have presents for Christmas, so that may be the reason I have a hard time spending money that I don't have too spend to get similar results. I will continue to watch this being done the right way...............MrP
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,155
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Post by jamesp on Jul 8, 2020 8:01:25 GMT -5
Shoestring budgets and jury rigging is what is cool about this hobby MrP. Not to mention hounding rocks for free. I take great pride in accomplishing our process goals on a recycle/repurpose trajectory. I too am fascinated by entropy's thought path. Flattered to have a person with a high level of knowledge and serious resources to join the forum. I presently have the raw materials down to $18/6" HDPE barrel plus labor/time to assemble. The contracted cheaply machined end plate stock was the saving grace on the cost. To avoid buying the costly fittings. There is easy access to miles of used pipe being sold or leased cheap.
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entropy
having dreams about rocks
Member since June 2020
Posts: 71
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Post by entropy on Jul 8, 2020 8:10:26 GMT -5
The only thing I've done thus far is cut some 8" pipe on a band-saw, and practice dressing the ends on the lathe. I wouldn't exactly call that sophisticated, but whatever. I'll post pictures when I'm done.
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Post by knave on Jul 8, 2020 8:20:02 GMT -5
I won’t lie, this is how progress is made. Doing extra planning and investing on the front end will/could result in great workflow and durability.
When you compare it to 10mm shafts and plastic bushings on some OEM tumblers vs 4” shafts, it puts a big ole smile on my face.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,155
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Post by jamesp on Jul 8, 2020 8:56:27 GMT -5
Its just my opinion, but since you asked: (Keep in mind, this started as a way to upcycle an inexpensive scrap of large diameter steel pipe...) To engineer and fabricate a 4 clamp system for 2 pipe diameters to achieve specified “bead-up” pressure, “heat soak” pressure, and “weld” pressure, all while staying within the “transfer time” window from mirror release to full weld pressure, then maintain that exact pressure throughout weld cooldown, etc. would take significant resources, time, money, brain cells, etc. When you COULD be tumbling already with a nice large DP tumbler at less expense. (and working on your Miata project) Why reinvent the wheel? 😎 fdotwww.blob.core.windows.net/sitefinity/docs/default-source/structures/cadd/standards/approvedptdrawings/hdpe-pipe-butt-welding-procedure_2-27-2018.pdfGood luck on your adventures. I’m hoping to goad you onward headstrong into the project, past the point of no return, so the world can benefit from near-eternal tumbler barrels. You would have a market with the reloading crowd. A fairly unknown but likely lucrative market is the hammer mill market. Rugged enough. Check out the cost of hammer mill barrels. These will serve well as hammer mill barrels for many applications like perfume and skin product manufacture, abrasive crushing, powder creation of a million uses.
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Tommy
Administrator
Member since January 2013
Posts: 12,663
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Post by Tommy on Jul 8, 2020 9:35:52 GMT -5
Nine solid pages of information packed posts and one reported thread later, we need to let this one cool off a bit. entropy I think what the group is trying to say, each in his own way, most being civil as far as I've seen, is in a world of (as jamesp put it) shoestring budgets and jury rigging (workbench innovation), to come at it again and again from such a technical Jetx platform leads to thread-fatigue, as well-meaning folks try to talk the person down over and over. It's a credit to everyone's calm demeanor that this valuable thread has reached nine pages and I would hate any other option than letting it wind down naturally. My sincere hope is you stick around and reach the point in your project where you show off your bad-ass creation and get everyone excited to follow your lead wondering why we didn't think of it.
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Post by MrP on Jul 8, 2020 11:29:41 GMT -5
Don't include me as part of a group making any statement. I like what entropy is doing, I just threw my 2 bit crap out there. I love the fact that we all do things in a different way!....................MrP
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,155
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Post by jamesp on Jul 9, 2020 7:20:05 GMT -5
Maybe some one will build HPDE barrels to sell on the open market. My barrels have been a game changer when it comes to shaping rocks in step 1. I was considering manufacturing HPDE tumbling barrels but my slate is full. To produce these barrels on a production level two tools would make it work. A substantially sized long lathe to make the end plates and cut the long lengths of pipe into short sections squarely. And an industrial grade specialized shop made welding machine utilizing a press. Your approach is a logical route to take for dependable production rates entropy. Completed barrel can run the coarsest of abrasive and easily run at higher speeds yet last a lifetime. Easily adding the coarsest of cheap raw silicon carbide every day or two and increasing barrel speed can really speed up the grueling step 1 part of rock tumbling. The easy open cap on these barrels makes abrasive additions a breeze. Also, there are many small businesses that need hammermills to make powders. One of these barrels would stand up to rolling 1.5 inch steel balls for powdering anything from flowers to silicon carbide. This company will do some cheap HPDE pipe machine work. I shopped this service thoroughly. 6.625" X 1/2" end caps at $6.50 each per 100 units. $15 each per 12 units. I did not get a price on cutting short pipe sections but discussed it. Pricing was quite fair. Shipping might be another matter. Speaking of fast cars entropy, I have been putting bids in on used Ariel Atoms powered by a 4 cyl. turbo Honda. 21 mpg. 0-60 under 3 seconds. 11 second quarter mile. Handles like a Ferrari. This one for $19,000, 2006 model with 7000 miles with only an Ecotech supercharged 4cyl. engine 0-60 in 3.5 seconds:
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,155
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Post by jamesp on Jul 12, 2020 11:33:21 GMT -5
Or a rock collecting ariel Nomad that only does a 12 second quarter mile.
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entropy
having dreams about rocks
Member since June 2020
Posts: 71
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Post by entropy on Jul 13, 2020 23:38:25 GMT -5
I picked up a 4’ x 8’ sheet of 1” thick pipe-grade HDPE. Its very close to an inch thick (within a few thousandths). Very shiny – not a scratch on it. I also grabbed some aggressive wood-cutting jigsaw blades. From what I’ve read, an aggressive wood blade on medium speed will cut HDPE effortlessly. A dull blade, or too fast, and the plastic will heat and become a sticky mess. We shall see. . .
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jamesp
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Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,155
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Post by jamesp on Jul 14, 2020 7:01:21 GMT -5
Far out. A 10 inch table saw with a 60 tooth trim blade with a fairly fast feed rate ate thru it with no effort and no melt. The center of the end cap is the highest wear point. Next is the shoulders at the reduction. Then the corners at the end plate connection. 5/8 to 3/4 plate should last a life time just saying. Checked into budget welding machines. Amazon has a few. They sell a $300 unit for 6 inch pipe. This one says in fine print max weld time is 20 minutes suggesting heat soak is critical. 'Electric fusion' welds may be a faster approach, no idea what they are. Betcha you simply crank the pressure till the bead oozes inside and out. Heat soak controls clamping force is my experience.
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Post by MrP on Sept 3, 2020 7:57:55 GMT -5
Nine solid pages of information packed posts and one reported thread later, we need to let this one cool off a bit. entropy I think what the group is trying to say, each in his own way, most being civil as far as I've seen, is in a world of (as jamesp put it) shoestring budgets and jury rigging (workbench innovation), to come at it again and again from such a technical Jetx platform leads to thread-fatigue, as well-meaning folks try to talk the person down over and over. It's a credit to everyone's calm demeanor that this valuable thread has reached nine pages and I would hate any other option than letting it wind down naturally. My sincere hope is you stick around and reach the point in your project where you show off yo ur bad-ass creation and get everyone excited to follow your lead wondering why we didn't think of it. Tommy I sure am glad you got this thread shut down. We have all been much better off not watching entropy build his tumblers. I don't think anybody, except me, wanted to see how a person, who has the right tools, would go about building tumbler equipment in a professional way. This is not the first time you have run good people off the board but I guess you know what is best for this board!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Tommy
Administrator
Member since January 2013
Posts: 12,663
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Post by Tommy on Sept 3, 2020 11:42:21 GMT -5
Tommy I sure am glad you got this thread shut down. We have all been much better off not watching entropy build his tumblers. I don't think anybody, except me, wanted to see how a person, who has the right tools, would go about building tumbler equipment in a professional way. MrP I consider you a valuable member of the community and you are entitled to your opinions about me and the decisions and actions I take on the board. I almost said this the first time you publicly scolded me in this thread but I decided to take the high road and let it lie. This is a public forum where everyone is welcome to join and also leave if they don't like it here, but as staff it is our job to not let it turn into the wild west and at times moderation is required. I don't believe in airing stuff like this publicly but since we've gone there, entropy reported this, his own thread, to staff because he didn't like the way he was being treated in the thread. If you care to read back in through the whole thread I'm sure you can figure things out, but in case you can't, you were not included in why the thread was reported - that was an assumption on your part it seems. Anyway, I read through the entire thread and made the decision that no lines had been crossed that had irreparably damaged the thread and I merely asked for a cooling off period. My decision was to leave the thread open and not lock it, not delete it, not publicly name or shame anyone, not privately scold anyone, not warn anyone, not ban anyone, or any other of what I would consider heavy-handed approaches to handling a reported thread. What occurred here was about as soft of an approach as I can think of short of simply ignoring it. entropy and some of the others made the decision to discontinue participating in the thread which is every bit their rights to do so. It's kind of sad that you chose this issue to drag something up from the past which I have zero idea what you're referring to but if you care to continue this I'd love hear by private message what it was I didn't that pissed you off in the past. As I said up top I consider you a valuable member of this community and it's too bad that something is eating at you like this. I'm not on any power trip and this is not an ego thing for me - I'm just enjoying the fact that we kept it going and thriving and based on the massive amount of glowing comments we get every day from new members we must be doing something right yes?
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Post by Bob on Sept 3, 2020 17:22:20 GMT -5
I saw the title of this thread and the first post but haven't tried to read the intervening 8 or 9 pages. All I wanted to mention, was that my first reaction was a large steel tumbler full of rough grit and rocks would just wear through, though I have no idea how long it would take. Just seems to me like it would have to happen. So I wonder how much grit would be "consumed" by the desired abrasion of the rocks vs. the undesired abrasion of the barrel?
My largest barrel is the Lortone C40, the 40lb steel barrel with the rubber liner. It took 6 years for the liner to finally need replacement, and it was only the bottom of it. And it was only the middle of the bottom that got about 1/8" thin. Given all the rough rocks I had thrown in there for years, I was stunned it held up this long. So I recently put in a new liner I had ready, and am going to easily buildup the inside of the worn one by mixing urethane or gluing in a cutout from a truck mudflap or something similar.
And my God how much grit it might consume! Rough grit lasts 7 days in my 20lb, 12lb, or 6lb barrels. But in the 40lb one, it last only 4 days in summer, and 5-6 days in winter. The 20lb barrel actually lasts only 6 days when the heat of summer is over 90 degrees. So if your really large tumbler is an extrapolation of this kind of trend, your grit bills are going to be very high.
My barrels total 114lb running 24/7. Not until this very moment did I wonder which is more efficient, all these barrels like I have, or only 1 big one that would hold 114lb.
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EricD
Cave Dweller
High in the Mountains
Member since November 2019
Posts: 1,142
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Post by EricD on Sept 3, 2020 17:36:46 GMT -5
Tommy I sure am glad you got this thread shut down. We have all been much better off not watching entropy build his tumblers. I don't think anybody, except me, wanted to see how a person, who has the right tools, would go about building tumbler equipment in a professional way. This is not the first time you have run good people off the board but I guess you know what is best for this board!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm pretty sure I'm the only one that deserves any backlash from this, but it's nice to know where you stand! And I also already said I regretted saying the thing that ticked the guy off. Was a bad choice of words.
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Post by parfive on Sept 3, 2020 19:22:15 GMT -5
Two questions, Bob . What kind of property do you have and what do you use for a slurry pit?
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pizzano
Cave Dweller
Member since February 2018
Posts: 1,390
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Post by pizzano on Sept 3, 2020 20:03:33 GMT -5
Tommy I sure am glad you got this thread shut down. We have all been much better off not watching entropy build his tumblers. I don't think anybody, except me, wanted to see how a person, who has the right tools, would go about building tumbler equipment in a professional way. This is not the first time you have run good people off the board but I guess you know what is best for this board!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm pretty sure I'm the only one that deserves any backlash from this, but it's nice to know where you stand! And I also already said I regretted saying the thing that ticked the guy off. Was a bad choice of words.
Eric......Don't beat yourself up to much (I know you're not).....lol
A slip of the tongue was not the real issue here. Yes, the comment lit a fuse, thus the reporting......but, in my opinion after having communicated with the OP via PM, he was looking for solutions to a curiosity he had related to a bigger project he and his wife were/are planning. Just thought running some ideas by a few here would help accelerate his intentions.........he and his wife are both academically trained, very successful engineer's, at a level only some of us would aspire to if we had the economic resources they have....that's all, plain and simple....!
As an example, at a little different level of aptitude........you, yourself, have had conversations, here at RTH, related to mechanical brake system's, which you are obviously well informed, that started to diminish to less than helpful or informative. Where you backed out of the conversation gently because you knew, from experience, there would be nothing gained or nothing lost by doing so.......on both ends.
I'm more than sure entropy may have felt the same........his tossing out another project, unrelated to the original subject, within the same thread, to drive more interest, may have been the bait that didn't get a bite here.......cut bait and walk away to fish another day.....maybe.
He may still drop by and show us his results........or he may have just taken another direction to achieve his goal.......who knows, I don't, but still interested in his process.
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