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Post by stephan on Sept 18, 2020 22:27:05 GMT -5
James, from the literature I've read the answer is yes, they are considered to be a fossil. Years ago we attended a lecture given by a somewhat arrogant BLM paleontologist who insisted they were only agate nodules. Since then the consensus of the scientific community is they are indeed coprolite. I did not know if a fossil had to be alive at one time to be classified as a fossil, say plant or animal. In this case the production of an animal. If not mistaken petrified or silicified clay can be considered to be jasper and never knew it to be referred to as fossilized clay. may be wrong here. Just tossing definitions around since this one is in a category to it's own ! It depends on the origin of the clay. Here in California, we have what is called the Franciscan Complex. Much of chert and jasper found in it is composed of solidified radiolarians, so it has origins in life, and is sort of a fossil. These ophiolites include some of our more famous jaspers, such as Stone Canyon and poppy jaspers. As for coprolites, they (and dinosaur footprints, gastroliths, tooth marks and nests) are known as trace fossils.
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Post by rockpickerforever on Sept 19, 2020 1:32:47 GMT -5
James, from the literature I've read the answer is yes, they are considered to be a fossil. Years ago we attended a lecture given by a somewhat arrogant BLM paleontologist who insisted they were only agate nodules. Since then the consensus of the scientific community is they are indeed coprolite. I did not know if a fossil had to be alive at one time to be classified as a fossil, say plant or animal. In this case the production of an animal. If not mistaken petrified or silicified clay can be considered to be jasper and never knew it to be referred to as fossilized clay. may be wrong here. Just tossing definitions around since this one is in a category to it's own ! Although they can hardly be considered to have been alive, there are sand dunes in Utah that are considered fossilized. At least, that is what they are called. Here's a couple of links: Snow Canyon State Park Petrified Sand DunesA Lesson in Geology: Utah's Petrified Sand Dunes - KÜHL Blog - Kuhl
The sand dunes are not "petrified" in the way we'd normally expect, i.e., silica, agate or opal replacement in stones, but rather, the grains of sandstone have cemented together, and compressed into solid rock. Looks like a great place to visit, breathtaking scenery.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 19, 2020 5:02:06 GMT -5
Wow rockpickerforever, spectacular scenery with unique hexagonal structures like basalt columns. Consider coal, diatomaceous limestone and perhaps Karst formations as being similar formations composed of living organisms. These are massive deposits. Trace fossils nails the definition for RWA3006's coprolites. That answers my question stephan. Consider this: If one to compare the amount of feces of the average human to the average dinosaur and consider the shear volume of a dinosaur's feces output they would find that the quantity is staggering. Then relate this to fossil fuels and ask if we heat our homes with a substance heavily composed of animal excrement Certainly fossil fuels are likely a high percent vegetative matter, but could be a substantial percentage of excrement. "In the U.S., the average life expectancy for men is about 76 years old, and for women, it is around 81 years old. Therefore, a man living to age 76 would produce about 24,320 lbs. (11,030 kg) of poop over his lifetime, and a woman living to age 81 would produce about 25,920 lbs. (11,757 kg) — so a lifetime of a woman's poop weighs about as much as three adult male hippos." No wonder RWA3006 finds so much coprolite ! Of course conditions have to be favorable for feces to fossilize.
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Post by dreamrocks on Sept 19, 2020 5:04:46 GMT -5
I did not know if a fossil had to be alive at one time to be classified as a fossil, say plant or animal. In this case the production of an animal. If not mistaken petrified or silicified clay can be considered to be jasper and never knew it to be referred to as fossilized clay. may be wrong here. Just tossing definitions around since this one is in a category to it's own ! Although they can hardly be considered to have been alive, there are sand dunes in Utah that are considered fossilized. At least, that is what they are called. Here's a couple of links: Snow Canyon State Park Petrified Sand DunesA Lesson in Geology: Utah's Petrified Sand Dunes - KÜHL Blog - Kuhl
The sand dunes are not "petrified" in the way we'd normally expect, i.e., silica, agate or opal replacement in stones, but rather, the grains of sandstone have cemented together, and compressed into solid rock. Looks like a great place to visit, breathtaking scenery. rockpickerforever that does look like a pretty cool place to spend the day exploring around Thanks for posting it I scrolled about half way through those pictures and saw what looks like a field of fossilized giant rabbit turds. With those fossilized sand dunes, sandstone everywhere then out of the blue a section of round boulders not really in a line but sort of just like a rabbits do a few pellets here a few more over there Got it ancient fossilized jack-a-lope turds wow they must have been big
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Post by jamesp on Sept 19, 2020 5:45:17 GMT -5
Say an average human weighs 175 pounds and creates 25,000 pounds of feces over 75 years. 143 times his body weight. Say an average dinosaur weighs 10,000 pounds he may create 143 x 10,000 pounds = 1,430,000 pounds if he lived to 75. Even if a dinosaur lives a shorter life he is going to produce extreme amounts of feces. Certainly most of his feces was processed by some serious organisms that converted his feces into compost. Ever walked into the small pasture of a dairy farm where a farmer holds his cattle for milking ? talk about needing waders. Certainly dinosaurs had social areas where they herded together and created great masses of feces. Add super high temperatures and humidity and consider the stench and increased metabolisms of the living organisms related to breaking down such massive amounts of feces. Related diseases...dino diarrhea OMG, giant 5 foot hard balls due to constipation extruded from a 100 ton dinosaur rolling down a mountain slope at high speed and crashing thru your house ! Or those giant dino birds exhausting say 300 gallons from 3000 feet in the sky. Bird poop is extremely intense chemically. The impact of dino feces may have changed the entire world. Not to be overly dramatic but these are things of nightmares.
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Post by rockpickerforever on Sept 19, 2020 5:49:58 GMT -5
Uh, no, not turds from giant rabbits, lol. They are either regular concretions, or maybe something like Moqui marbles. Out in Ocotillo Wells, there are areas where the ground is just covered with sandstone concretions..
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Post by jamesp on Sept 19, 2020 5:59:54 GMT -5
related article www.quora.com/What-s-the-world-record-for-largest-dump-ever-taken-by-a-human"From this perspective, whales aren't just gardeners, but geoengineers as well. Marine biologist Trish Lavery of Australia's Flinders University estimated that defecation by the Southern Ocean's sperm whales ultimately sequesters some 400,000 tons of carbon dioxide every year. Prior to their commercial whaling decline, that population alone would have accounted for about roughly the amount emitted by one decent-sized coal-fired power plant." Is this possible ? check out this guy's putrid expression This is
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Post by rockpickerforever on Sept 19, 2020 6:02:20 GMT -5
jamesp loves his poo threads, lol. Speaking of trace fossils not being something that at one time was living, I remembered that I have a a fossilized ghost shrimp burrow I picked up at a sale years ago. The burrow had filled with pellets of sand, which then turned to stone. It is burrow shaped, and the surface looks kind of like a corn cob. Photo in my desktop computer, I can post later, if anybody is interested.
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Post by jamesp on Sept 19, 2020 8:13:44 GMT -5
RWA3006's coprolites are without doubt one of the most interesting fossilized items rockpickerforever. I can't help but believe that dino poop must have been incredibly large. Perhaps the fossilizing process requires a large specimen to start with and the end product is much smaller. In the case of mass silicifications like coral down this way the bigger the coral the less chance of it silicifying completely. The smaller silicifications by far yield more gemmy well silicified specimens. It seems denser harder materials have a better chance of fossilizing like bone/wood/coral, etc. Dino poop seems way on the soft end and seems to be on the rare end of the spectrum.
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Post by mohs on Sept 19, 2020 8:31:35 GMT -5
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Post by RWA3006 on Sept 19, 2020 10:03:10 GMT -5
RWA3006's coprolites are without doubt one of the most interesting fossilized items rockpickerforever. I can't help but believe that dino poop must have been incredibly large. Perhaps the fossilizing process requires a large specimen to start with and the end product is much smaller. In the case of mass silicifications like coral down this way the bigger the coral the less chance of it silicifying completely. The smaller silicifications by far yield more gemmy well silicified specimens. It seems denser harder materials have a better chance of fossilizing like bone/wood/coral, etc. Dino poop seems way on the soft end and seems to be on the rare end of the spectrum. The largest coprolites I've found so far are about the size of a 20 gallon tank. They appear as boulders lodged in steep rocky ravines which discouraged any notions I had of getting them to the truck. I often find broken large ones and it's interesting that they are usually devoid of the beautiful colors and contrasts that I love in smaller specimens. The best colors and patterns seem most prevalent in the sizes ranging from egg to grapefruit size. I fancy that the texture of the original poo was very coarse and prolific ... much like that shot of the rhino, but on a grander scale. Many of us have heard the phrase "eat like a horse" and it comes from agricultural culture where people who were around horses and cows were well aware of the fact that horses, not being ruminants like cows, required substantially more feed than cows to derive their energy. I have no idea what kind of digestive tract these hadrosaurs had, but we do know that the variety of their buffet options was quite limited. Most of the literature I've read indicates that primitive plants like conifers, ferns, etc. were dominant and if you can imagine a diet of conifer boughs you can conclude that the texture might have been like the stuff you see shooting out of a chipper/shredder. Take into account that these critters had crude peg-like teeth and it adds to the hypothesis that the material being swallowed was very coarse. I suspect that the vibrant colors and spider webbing in the sub grapefruit sized specimens are due to them drying out and forming large cracks before whatever burial event covered them up. I think these inconsistencies provided opportunity for the concentration of silica from the ancient beach gravels they were entombed in. It's obvious these coprolites are eroding from a strata of beach gravel and petrified banks of beach sand. When I get a little time I'll post photos relating to these ideas ...
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Post by mohs on Sept 19, 2020 10:59:45 GMT -5
That why x-tra sized the the LadMo Bag Try to avoid 888lbs of in 555 lb bag! Of coarse, we all knohs corpro happens...mostly
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 19, 2020 15:49:38 GMT -5
RWA3006's coprolites are without doubt one of the most interesting fossilized items rockpickerforever. I can't help but believe that dino poop must have been incredibly large. Perhaps the fossilizing process requires a large specimen to start with and the end product is much smaller. In the case of mass silicifications like coral down this way the bigger the coral the less chance of it silicifying completely. The smaller silicifications by far yield more gemmy well silicified specimens. It seems denser harder materials have a better chance of fossilizing like bone/wood/coral, etc. Dino poop seems way on the soft end and seems to be on the rare end of the spectrum. The largest coprolites I've found so far are about the size of a 20 gallon tank. They appear as boulders lodged in steep rocky ravines which discouraged any notions I had of getting them to the truck. I often find broken large ones and it's interesting that they are usually devoid of the beautiful colors and contrasts that I love in smaller specimens. The best colors and patterns seem most prevalent in the sizes ranging from egg to grapefruit size. I fancy that the texture of the original poo was very coarse and prolific ... much like that shot of the rhino, but on a grander scale. Many of us have heard the phrase "eat like a horse" and it comes from agricultural culture where people who were around horses and cows were well aware of the fact that horses, not being ruminants like cows, required substantially more feed than cows to derive their energy. I have no idea what kind of digestive tract these hadrosaurs had, but we do know that the variety of their buffet options was quite limited. Most of the literature I've read indicates that primitive plants like conifers, ferns, etc. were dominant and if you can imagine a diet of conifer boughs you can conclude that the texture might have been like the stuff you see shooting out of a chipper/shredder. Take into account that these critters had crude peg-like teeth and it adds to the hypothesis that the material being swallowed was very coarse. I suspect that the vibrant colors and spider webbing in the sub grapefruit sized specimens are due to them drying out and forming large cracks before whatever burial event covered them up. I think these inconsistencies provided opportunity for the concentration of silica from the ancient beach gravels they were entombed in. It's obvious these coprolites are eroding from a strata of beach gravel and petrified banks of beach sand. When I get a little time I'll post photos relating to these ideas ... Copralite really present a lot of investigative opportunities about these monsters of the past. Especially if the piles are somewhat in order. Florida is loaded with well preserved fossils and has almost zero tectonic activity allowing many finds that are closely in tact as they were long ago. This may be the case with your hunting grounds. You mentioned the strata and this is telling. The thunder egg like shape seems to insinuate a shape akin to something related to it's fossilization perhaps. Anyway it is fun to assume the why and whats of particular fossils. You are fortunate enough to see them as found in nature. Collectors are often overlooked for their findings yet they often know more about a given fossil than any well educated geologist. So you do find larger specimens and they are of lower quality but this is important. Betcha there are clues that would lead to important discoveries about dinosaurs. There is a big difference in the quality of the silicification in many types of fossils depending on their size. The diatomaceous silica found in limestone can be quite soluble and available in large amount allowing large silicifications. I would guess the silica involved in making copralite would be volcanic ash. Your imagination must run wild knowing such large and dangerous creatures were crawling all over the areas you collect at. Like finding large shark's teeth while swimming in a river.
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RWA3006
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Post by RWA3006 on Sept 19, 2020 17:02:32 GMT -5
jamesp you are correct about the volcanic ash because there are layers of it superior to the coprolite host layers. I've thought it was an ideal source of silica to percolate downward through the strata in addition to the high quantities found in the quartzite sand and cobbles found within the ground zero layer. Another thing I find to be odd is I can't detect coprolites that have been deformed by trampling. I suspect the trampled material was dispersed and did not fossilize. I can see how it could have mixed in with the tremendous amount of plant matter that is present in the layer. I've read literature that describes how so much plant material altered the layers so they are visible today as purple and green bands in the hills.
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RWA3006
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Post by RWA3006 on Sept 19, 2020 17:04:32 GMT -5
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Post by RWA3006 on Sept 19, 2020 17:06:50 GMT -5
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Post by RWA3006 on Sept 19, 2020 17:09:14 GMT -5
In the above photo there are dozens of coprolites in the foreground. They are hard to differentiate in this photo but if you were walking among the stones they would be easily identifiable.
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RWA3006
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Post by RWA3006 on Sept 19, 2020 19:31:07 GMT -5
Here's some typical Blue forest limbs. Look at the structure of the cross sections.
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Post by RWA3006 on Sept 19, 2020 19:32:30 GMT -5
Here's a couple of coprolite slabs. What do you see?
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Post by RWA3006 on Sept 19, 2020 19:33:20 GMT -5
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