EricD
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Post by EricD on Jul 14, 2020 19:03:17 GMT -5
I've heard of it done, I've read tutorials on it. Now I'm trying it. As usual, I am not following instructions  Instructions are for, dare I even say it... sheep... and nuclear scientists exploring things that are well known already. I'll let you know how it turns out, what I did, and if it fails, what I did next. So far I mixed two equal (maybe equal, I didn't measure. eyeballed it.) parts of sodium silicate (40%) and water infused with about 3/4 of a teaspoon of citric acid powder (also didn't measure) and 2 drops of dish soap. The dish soap was measured. Two drops. Might be too much citric acid. It immediately started to thicken and "clump". Added two layers of slabs to the small plastic container with a lid, with a layer of plastic coated freezer paper in between slabs. From tutorials I've read I need to keep it heated at 180oF for 24 hours. Lets see if I can do away with that. I won't be heating it until I want to evaporate off the water, after I drip dry them.
Here it starts, where it ends will be interesting, I'm sure. The bubbles escaped from the fractures in the slabs.
Update in about 2 days  |
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agatewhisperer
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since May 2020
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Post by agatewhisperer on Jul 15, 2020 10:44:09 GMT -5
Very interesting. Would you mind giving some more details on what this does and when to do it? Does it basically just fill in cracks and hold a slab together?
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EricD
Cave Dweller
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Member since November 2019
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Post by EricD on Jul 15, 2020 11:03:57 GMT -5
Very interesting. Would you mind giving some more details on what this does and when to do it? Does it basically just fill in cracks and hold a slab together? From what I've heard it's like synthetic agate that will fill cracks and voids and "heal" a fractured stone, or strengthen a stone that would otherwise be unworkable. |
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EricD
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Post by EricD on Jul 16, 2020 18:45:03 GMT -5
Alright, an update: I soaked the slabs in the solution for about 12 hours at which point I checked and I think the plastic coated freezer paper was clouding the mixture (dissolving the plastic perhaps). Nothing was sticking together. I removed the paper, and allowed it to soak another 12 hours, maybe more. I removed the slabs and allowed them to drain through my sieve into my slurry bucket overnight. In the morning the slabs were dry and had a nice crust on the top-side:
Most of it flaked off and left a nice shiny surface that you can see on the other two stones.
I dunked a slab in a cup of water to see if it dissolves, or is indeed tough as stone. It has been in there for almost 12 hours with no change in texture.
Any other testing I should do? Acid?
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Post by stardiamond on Jul 16, 2020 19:02:56 GMT -5
I gave up being a chemistry major because I was color blind and that was over 55 years ago. I use sodium silicate to glue rocks to a piece of 2x4 because it is water soluble and will allow the last slab to soak off the board. I cut slabs in oil but work slabs using a lot of water. I don't know how your mixture becomes water proof.
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EricD
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Post by EricD on Jul 16, 2020 20:06:44 GMT -5
I gave up being a chemistry major because I was color blind and that was over 55 years ago. I use sodium silicate to glue rocks to a piece of 2x4 because it is water soluble and will allow the last slab to soak off the board. I cut slabs in oil but work slabs using a lot of water. I don't know how your mixture becomes water proof. The solution is polymerized by using citric acid, that then makes it more like rock and impervious. Supposedly |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2020 20:18:17 GMT -5
I would pre-cut the slabs into
Pre-forms first
That way it will soak in superiorly
Yeah. Thats a word
Superiorly
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Post by stardiamond on Jul 16, 2020 20:21:43 GMT -5
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Post by catmandewe on Jul 16, 2020 21:08:30 GMT -5
So did it work without heating it?
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EricD
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Post by EricD on Jul 17, 2020 7:39:09 GMT -5
I would pre-cut the slabs into Pre-forms first That way it will soak in superiorly Yeah. Thats a word Superiorly The main reason I'm trying this is to avoid having them come apart on the trim saw. So did it work without heating it? So far it's been in a cup of water for 24 hours with no change, so it's not dissolving. I'll get to working the material and stress testing this weekend and see if it breaks at the former fractures. I would pre-cut the slabs into Pre-forms first That way it will soak in superiorly Yeah. Thats a word Superiorly I’m thinking the same, possibly after rough grinding/sanding. The pre form and grinding would test the stability of the stone and ensure that you are only filling voids, not expecting structural stability from stabilizing. I'm actually looking for structural stability, not just an outer coating for filling pits. But I'd like to achieve it in a lot simpler of a way than heating it at 180o in the solution for 24 hours and then baking it on "warm" overnight. Those steps seemed like overkill to me, even though heating may achieve deeper penetration of microscopic fractures by expanding the air within, forcing it out, allowing the solution to replace it when the slab is cooled.
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Post by rmf on Jul 17, 2020 13:58:20 GMT -5
Based on you use case I would think that after cleaning the slab. Putting in Hot water would cause the stone to expand slightly and that adding a thin solution of sodium silicate over night would cause it to penetrate. Then once that was completed add the citric acid to polymerize the sodium silicate. The polymerization should continue down into the pores of the stone. I have dyed some agate to see if I could. Some agate will dye and some will not. It is my understanding that sodium silicate is what is in many desiccant bags. But that will turn brown if heated to strongly. does your method stay clear? Thanks for the info.
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EricD
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Post by EricD on Jul 17, 2020 14:36:26 GMT -5
Based on you use case I would think that after cleaning the slab. Putting in Hot water would cause the stone to expand slightly and that adding a thin solution of sodium silicate over night would cause it to penetrate. Then once that was completed add the citric acid to polymerize the sodium silicate. The polymerization should continue down into the pores of the stone. I have dyed some agate to see if I could. Some agate will dye and some will not. It is my understanding that sodium silicate is what is in many desiccant bags. But that will turn brown if heated to strongly. does your method stay clear? Thanks for the info. Having only just begun to experiment with it, I can only say that after 48 hours it was still clear. I haven't used any heat on it. I'm trying without heat first, trying to get a user-friendly recipe to work. |
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Post by knave on Jul 17, 2020 14:44:56 GMT -5
I’m really digging this, man!
What is your next step in the experiment?
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Post by stardiamond on Jul 17, 2020 15:40:01 GMT -5
A good experiment. I got a large piece of Mescalero and when slabbing it there were a lot of fractures. I contacted the seller and he said the material needs to be stabilized. As a large piece of rough I doubt anything would adequately penetrate. I don't stabilize anything and the only stabilized material I would consider buying is turquoise. I cut a lot of material that tends to fracture; Morgan Hill, Tahoma, Blue Tide and anything brecciate including stefoinite, youngite, Mescalero and Blue Dream. My approach has always been avoid the fractures, recut when they appear and disclose minor defects. When buying material that fractures my strategy is to calculate cost and yield. The more fractures to work around, the lower the yield and the higher the cost of a preform.
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gemfeller
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Post by gemfeller on Jul 17, 2020 17:14:26 GMT -5
stardiamond , I agree with your approach. I've stabilized a few stones (dinosaur bone, some Feather Ridge plume and a couple of others) because they were so beautiful I simply had to save them. But as an ordinary practice I totally shun fractures. I cut and re-cut until no problems are detectable. Rarely I'll leave very small fractures that don't visually detract from stones and don't threaten their integrity, especially any that might fail during stresses of setting. I always make those issues known if the stones are sold.
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EricD
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Post by EricD on Jul 17, 2020 19:13:43 GMT -5
I’m really digging this, man! What is your next step in the experiment? Toss them around a bit, try to break them where they would obviously be weak before treating. Grind cabs A good experiment. I got a large piece of Mescalero and when slabbing it there were a lot of fractures. I contacted the seller and he said the material needs to be stabilized. As a large piece of rough I doubt anything would adequately penetrate. I don't stabilize anything and the only stabilized material I would consider buying is turquoise. I cut a lot of material that tends to fracture; Morgan Hill, Tahoma, Blue Tide and anything brecciate including stefoinite, youngite, Mescalero and Blue Dream. My approach has always been avoid the fractures, recut when they appear and disclose minor defects. When buying material that fractures my strategy is to calculate cost and yield. The more fractures to work around, the lower the yield and the higher the cost of a preform. I don't like it when a perfectly good stone blows apart on the saw because of a tiny invisible fracture I didn't see. This is a big reason I'm doing this experiment. I would like to offer the cab, wrap, whatever to someone even if it is treated. Some person out there will be overjoyed to have it. Definitely going to go into great detail in my listing to describe how it's treated, why, and set my price a bit lower because of it. I chose some really cracked up slabs to try it on. No offense to @hookedonrocks. I think the slabs he sent me was worth 10 times the price I paid! I picked the most fractured ones to test it on first. Most of them are great the way they are! stardiamond , I agree with your approach. I've stabilized a few stones (dinosaur bone, some Feather Ridge plume and a couple of others) because they were so beautiful I simply had to save them. But as an ordinary practice I totally shun fractures. I cut and re-cut until no problems are detectable. Rarely I'll leave very small fractures that don't visually detract from stones and don't threaten their integrity, especially any that might fail during stresses of setting. I always make those issues known if the stones are sold. I also avoid fractures like a plague. I'm trying to detect the fractures first, and stabilize and cut them once, instead. To me it's as normal as slabbing with oil. Something is added to the stone, soaked in. Oil or sodium silicate... which is worse? |
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Post by stardiamond on Jul 17, 2020 19:48:00 GMT -5
Oil is a byproduct of the slabbing and trimming process and depending on the material can be difficult to get rid of. A stabilizing agent is different and needs to be disclosed when sold. A person gets to choose how they treat the material they are working on. It's their work. If I saw a beautiful and unusual pattern that I knew would fall apart, I would consider stabilizing to be able to complete the work.
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EricD
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Post by EricD on Jul 17, 2020 20:00:52 GMT -5
Oil is a byproduct of the slabbing and trimming process and depending on the material can be difficult to get rid of. A stabilizing agent is different and needs to be disclosed when sold. A person gets to choose how they treat the material they are working on. It's their work. If I saw a beautiful and unusual pattern that I knew would fall apart, I would consider stabilizing to be able to complete the work. Other than the difference of oil being added to a stone or sodium silicate (They are both not natural to the stone), I fully agree with that post.
I love to cut out a shape, grind the dome, and have it all work out as planned the same as the next guy.
But, when I know the outcome will not be good, and I can enhance my chance of producing a salable item, disclosed, then I will find ways to do so. Just the way I do things. I don't like waste
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2020 22:25:51 GMT -5
I have worked with stabilized poppy Jasper,
I mean this material i had was professionally done back in the
Back in the ‘’70’s
It was a dream to cut and cab
And held a better polish than one could hope for.
If your experiment comes through?
I will pay you 1 billion dollars for the recipe
( or a rock)
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Post by stardiamond on Jul 17, 2020 23:10:26 GMT -5
My lapidary experience goes back to 2000. I remember buying Tiffany stone slabs thoroughly drenched in goop and maybe one MHPJ.
What fun would it be working with MHPJ without having to deal with fractures? I remember supergluing all the fractures on some MHPJ slabs and then putting them away. Maybe I was teaching them a lesson.
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Instructions are for, dare I even say it... sheep... and nuclear scientists exploring things that are well known already.
