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Post by Bob on Oct 9, 2020 10:52:22 GMT -5
jamessp I share your enthusiasm about bamboo. My minor was in botany, and I took the dreaded agrostology (the study of grasses) course as a senior taught by a feared plant taxonomist who revelled in his reputation to just kill people with this course. Was I scared yes. Was it difficult oh God yes. But I survived and my perspective about grasses has never been the same since. Two things really got to me. One was the world of bamboos. The other was the scary hygroscopic awns on some grass seeds that allow self-planting. I have shown these in action to people and had them jump back in fright and I almost did that too.
So I go out of my way when travelling to see bamboos. Have seen some monsters in Venezuela, Costa Rica, and Ecuador particularly. Have stayed in 3 story structures built from bamboo. In Xianning China recently, I entered a bamboo "arboretum" that contained over 80 species planted in one hectare each and a scientific museum dedicated to bamboo (perhaps the only one in the world). Some were so fine and delicate in foliage and branching that if I didn't know what to look for I might not have known it was bamboo. The striped species were breathtaking. I have been asked, but have refused, to help plan neighbor-to-neighbor warfare using Phyllostachys. I wish I lived closer to you and could ask to see your collection! Have you planted any of the particularly invasive species of Phyllostachys and built underground barriers successfully to contain the beast?
I have heard there is some incredible bamboo collection on the west coast of the US somewhere.
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Post by rockpickerforever on Oct 9, 2020 11:37:15 GMT -5
I have heard there is some incredible bamboo collection on the west coast of the US somewhere. Bob, don't know if this is where you are thinking of - www.huntington.org/gardensThe Huntington Botanical Gardens are located in San Merino, 12 miles from downtown LA. I mainly have visited to enjoy the Cactus Gardens, but they also have quite a collection of bamboos.
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Post by Bob on Oct 9, 2020 11:46:32 GMT -5
No, I think it's more of a bamboo only type place. Now that I think about it, I've heard of one on the west coast and also one in Florida or Georgia or somewhere similar. They may not be widely advertised.
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gemfeller
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Post by gemfeller on Oct 9, 2020 14:44:00 GMT -5
I do not know this RWA3006 . I do want to research this. I know there is about 6 varieties of native palm trees presently in the US. In Texas alone over 400 fossil varieties of palm have been found. A very diverse world back in those days. I've found a fair amount of pet palm in Wyoming at 6800' elevation and average of only 60ish frost free days per year. The world has changed in numerous ways ... latitudes, elevations, glaciation, etc. It would have been interesting to see a perfect replay of what transpired. Have you read John McFee's "Rising from the Plains?" It's one of the books in his amazing and wonderful "Annals of the Former World" collection. It's a "must" if you're interested in Wyoming geology. It's not technical either. Despite its abundance of fascinating information about "high country" geology, it reads like a novel, complete with a heartwarming love story. It was a gift to me from my daughter several years ago and it motivated me to read the entire collection. It's part of his tale of plate tectonics as it has affected the U.S. It's beautifully written as a bonus.
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Post by Bob on Oct 9, 2020 15:43:05 GMT -5
I had to go looking for a photo of that amazing bamboo museum building and I found two. Unfortunately, it has crazy hours and each time I've been there it's been closed. But the Chinese spared no effort in making the building a real attention getter. While looking for these, I found something else I've got to share with my friends here. There are two photos of food items on plates. Those are rocks! Every single one of them! This is in a geology museum in Wuhan. There is a quartz crystal in there the size of a Volkswagon Beetle too. The food photos are lousy because this was all displayed underneath the glass cover of a large museum case. In some cases, even from a few inches away peering in, I could hardly tell these were rocks. Someone spent a WHOLE LOT of time on this! Let me tell you, you know they are rocks because the sign says so, then you lean in, and wonder why you are getting hungry, then you double-check and yes they are rocks, but then you look again in disbelief. If only I had had whatever it would take to properly light up and photograph this display. I spent a good 20 mins inspecting all those plates. Even though I saw it with my own eyes, just like the glass flowers at Harvard Univ, I could hardly trust my own eyes to be telling me the truth. All the rocks looks unaltered as if found in nature in those exact forms.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 10, 2020 7:14:25 GMT -5
You can see a bamboo forest like this on Maui too. 200’ tall. Pretty amazing that it’s botanically a grass. That’s one heck of a lawn! If horsetail reached a diameter of 10 inches and likely 50+ feet imagine the potential height for a plant as strong and tall as bamboo back in pre-historic times. These gigantic grasses lead to another subject. The biologic mass they create. Many types of bamboo canes reach full height in one or 2 cycles of the moon, 30 to 60 days. Horsetail similar. Many don't realize that bamboo reaches full height in a month often growing 4 feet a day for a tall variety. Each year a grove can multiply in surface area exponentially. Especially running bamboos where the canes shoot from the grove a distance of the height of the bamboo. In good conditions: A 50 foot tall running bamboo stand can grow from a 100 foot diameter circle to a 1100 foot circle in 10 years. A 100 foot tall running bamboo can go from a 100 foot circle(.18 acres) to a 2100 foot diameter circle(80 acres) in 10 years. After 50 years the 100 foot tall bamboo could cover 1800 acres. And the organic litter increases exponentially as the height of the bamboo is increased. The height of new canes increases as the short lived(5 to 7 years) canes die because bamboo increases in height as it's own litter/compost increases in depth and richness. Bamboo prospers in it's own silica rich litter. A viscous circle in many ways. Another property of bamboo is that it creates biological mass from it's heavy leaf litter. 50 year old stands of bamboo imported to the US have generated rich topsoil faster than any native plant growing here. In locations like China where bamboo has grown for say several thousand(10,000, 20,000 ?) years since the last ice age the rich top soil generated is like 100 feet deep. It is mined as if it is an ore at these locations. Looks like fossil fuels are in large supply !
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 10, 2020 7:47:21 GMT -5
jamessp I share your enthusiasm about bamboo. My minor was in botany, and I took the dreaded agrostology (the study of grasses) course as a senior taught by a feared plant taxonomist who revelled in his reputation to just kill people with this course. Was I scared yes. Was it difficult oh God yes. But I survived and my perspective about grasses has never been the same since. Two things really got to me. One was the world of bamboos. The other was the scary hygroscopic awns on some grass seeds that allow self-planting. I have shown these in action to people and had them jump back in fright and I almost did that too. So I go out of my way when travelling to see bamboos. Have seen some monsters in Venezuela, Costa Rica, and Ecuador particularly. Have stayed in 3 story structures built from bamboo. In Xianning China recently, I entered a bamboo "arboretum" that contained over 80 species planted in one hectare each and a scientific museum dedicated to bamboo (perhaps the only one in the world). Some were so fine and delicate in foliage and branching that if I didn't know what to look for I might not have known it was bamboo. The striped species were breathtaking. I have been asked, but have refused, to help plan neighbor-to-neighbor warfare using Phyllostachys. I wish I lived closer to you and could ask to see your collection! Have you planted any of the particularly invasive species of Phyllostachys and built underground barriers successfully to contain the beast? I have heard there is some incredible bamboo collection on the west coast of the US somewhere. Down here in the south we have bush hogs pulled behind diesel powered tractors. These mowers that can mow down 3 inch trees. Some bigger units can mow 5 inch trees. These machines are not heavy enough to enter a bamboo forest. The bamboo simply lifts the tractor off the ground when entering the grove. Even medium sized 30,000 pound bulldozers do not have enough weight or power to push it's way into a grove. After 25 years of advising the residents of the city of Atlanta I give them one piece of advise about keeping Phyllostachys in check. Can the barrier attempts. Grow it out in an open field where a push lawn mower can cut the tender new shoots in spring when it shoots around the perimeter of the grove. The other way to keep it in check is to pour a minimum 6 foot wide concrete slab around it. It will not cross under 6 feet of concrete because the soil is too cold ?. Or dark ? For some reason the roots are smart enough not to venture under a concrete slab go figure. It will venture under asphalt less than 2 inches thick and the shoots will puncture straight up thru it. It must know it's own strength. I have a small stand of solid stem bamboo growing next to our asphalt parking lot and it has all but destroyed the asphalt. It appears a nuclear powered mole has been burrowing under the asphalt. Killing running bamboo is easy. Simply set the ground litter on fire on a dry day. The leaves will fall in about 2 months. Burn them too on a dry day after they drop. Your bamboo canes are all dead now. Get a chain saw and remove the dead canes by hand(not so easy). Now mow this area for 5 to 6 years to kill new shoots. Or plow the roots up if you have a very powerful tractor. All Phyllostachys bamboo Bob. About 30 varieties. It is kept in check by mowing perimeter of groves several times in spring. Towards the end of the album you will notice brown canes. We had a freak -2F freeze that killed P. Nigra. It took about 400 hours to clean out and burn the dead canes. www.flickr.com/photos/67205364@N06/albums/72157632661938515
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Post by Bob on Oct 10, 2020 9:08:19 GMT -5
Wow Jim, those pics and your stories are fascinating to me! Thank you so much. I've always wondered if bamboo stands could be used as nature prisons for people. In China I climbed a stem about 8' using all my strength, it very scary and the fall could kill and if one fell and got jambed between stems...well it's all over.
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Post by Bob on Oct 10, 2020 9:25:54 GMT -5
I return to China in Feb and getting into that bamboo museum when it is open is going to happen. I have tried, but been unsuccessful in translating enough Mandarin even with my wife's help to learn if the building's height is due to several floors or instead is a huge open space for displays of huge bamboos. We were told US$17 million was spent on the building and what is inside it.
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RWA3006
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Post by RWA3006 on Oct 10, 2020 10:11:12 GMT -5
jamesp I think your comments about deep biomass are spot on because I read an excerpt from a dissertation that identified some prominent Utah green/gray and red strata as the remains of tremendous biomass mixed with sediment. These layers are rich in dino bone and coprolite along with identifiable plant remains. Most of the material simply looks like colored bad land material, but if you take a moment to dig in it and look closely you can tell the organic material is abundant. In my coprolite hunting endeavors I scan the countryside for these layers and search there for the goodies. We know that while these layers were being laid down this area had recently split from the supercontinent Laurasia and the area was passing through tropical latitudes on it's way northward. I speculate the climate was ideal for the growth of the plants in this discussion. My experience applies mostly to more "recent" times, early Jurassic Period, 180 million years ago to late Cretaceous, 65 million years ago. This time slot was probably small potatoes compared to the Carboniferous Period, 360-300 million years ago which was truly a time of laying down some serious biomass. I'll rummage around and find photos of strata from the Mesozoic Era where I tromp around.
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RWA3006
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Post by RWA3006 on Oct 10, 2020 10:14:28 GMT -5
The KT boundary is toward the top of these layers.
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RWA3006
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Post by RWA3006 on Oct 10, 2020 10:16:07 GMT -5
Uranium mines often focus near these layers.
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RWA3006
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Post by RWA3006 on Oct 10, 2020 10:17:10 GMT -5
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 11, 2020 6:33:07 GMT -5
Wow Jim, those pics and your stories are fascinating to me! Thank you so much. I've always wondered if bamboo stands could be used as nature prisons for people. In China I climbed a stem about 8' using all my strength, it very scary and the fall could kill and if one fell and got jambed between stems...well it's all over. Clumping bamboos create impenetrable fences. Cattle farmers plant clumping bamboo for fences in tropical regions. David Grandison Fairchild was hired to collect bamboo all over the world by the US Dept. of Agriculture to collect bamboo. They decided to bring it(introduce it was their words) into Savannah Georgia starting in 1890 because of it's bamboo friendly habitat. They were correct. Farmers were allowed to plant it on their farms all over Georgia. It has been a serious nuisance since. Being that it is so difficult to eradicate, has less value to man than trees and spreads so fast the rain forests could be colonized with it if the carbon dioxide balance is needed. It would not support a wide variety of life but it would prevent erosion and fix the air. A small 4WD vehicle full of roots would easily sprig a 1000 acres. The cattle farmers that graze the timbered rain forest would be seriously angry !
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 11, 2020 7:01:03 GMT -5
jamesp I think your comments about deep biomass are spot on because I read an excerpt from a dissertation that identified some prominent Utah green/gray and red strata as the remains of tremendous biomass mixed with sediment. These layers are rich in dino bone and coprolite along with identifiable plant remains. Most of the material simply looks like colored bad land material, but if you take a moment to dig in it and look closely you can tell the organic material is abundant. In my coprolite hunting endeavors I scan the countryside for these layers and search there for the goodies. We know that while these layers were being laid down this area had recently split from the supercontinent Laurasia and the area was passing through tropical latitudes on it's way northward. I speculate the climate was ideal for the growth of the plants in this discussion. My experience applies mostly to more "recent" times, early Jurassic Period, 180 million years ago to late Cretaceous, 65 million years ago. This time slot was probably small potatoes compared to the Carboniferous Period, 360-300 million years ago which was truly a time of laying down some serious biomass. I'll rummage around and find photos of strata from the Mesozoic Era where I tromp around. High heat and humidity coupled with rich soil can greatly expedite biomass production RWA3006. If present day running bamboos were on a largeness scale of ancient reptiles and growing in rich soil at +120F and 100% humidity in rich soil the biomass production would be unimaginable. The tall bamboo around a pond creates a happy habitat for massive colonies of tree frogs and insects. Basically a tall vertical high volume habitat for a massive colony of tree frogs. The tree frogs are constantly falling out of the bamboo and landing in the pond. Then the bass is heard attacking the frog as he swims back to shore. The growth rate for the bass is off the chart. The biomass increases as the waste from the large amount of bass increases. Increase the size of these relationships as was the case in the prehistoric world and the coprolite should increase with it. Instead of a .1 pound tree frog and a 5 pound bass there may have been a 10 pound frog and a 200 pound bass.
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Post by rockpickerforever on Oct 11, 2020 23:18:44 GMT -5
While looking for these, I found something else I've got to share with my friends here. There are two photos of food items on plates. Those are rocks! Every single one of them! This is in a geology museum in Wuhan. There is a quartz crystal in there the size of a Volkswagon Beetle too. The food photos are lousy because this was all displayed underneath the glass cover of a large museum case. In some cases, even from a few inches away peering in, I could hardly tell these were rocks. Someone spent a WHOLE LOT of time on this! Let me tell you, you know they are rocks because the sign says so, then you lean in, and wonder why you are getting hungry, then you double-check and yes they are rocks, but then you look again in disbelief. If only I had had whatever it would take to properly light up and photograph this display. I spent a good 20 mins inspecting all those plates. Even though I saw it with my own eyes, just like the glass flowers at Harvard Univ, I could hardly trust my own eyes to be telling me the truth. All the rocks looks unaltered as if found in nature in those exact forms. The rock club I used to belong to had what they called their "Rock Feast." It was exhibited annually at the local fairgrounds, and at other shows for many years. Will see if I can find a photo of it. Here is one "dessert" we came up with for the afore mentioned Ugly Rock Contest. This being in the "looks like" category. Pretty sure this one came in first that year.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 12, 2020 5:14:07 GMT -5
Rock pie I assume rockpickerforever ? This would make a great photo competition on RTH.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 12, 2020 5:18:20 GMT -5
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RWA3006
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Post by RWA3006 on Oct 12, 2020 7:09:50 GMT -5
jamesp Doubtful because of a lack of calcium carbonates I associate within caliches. I've been under the impression the silica content is high in this material because of the beautiful agatizing of macro organics found within the layer such as the dino bone in the photo above. I would say most of the content could be summarized as ashfall mixed with a lot of biomass.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Oct 12, 2020 7:52:56 GMT -5
jamesp Doubtful because of a lack of calcium carbonates I associate within caliches. I've been under the impression the silica content is high in this material because of the beautiful agatizing of macro organics found within the layer such as the dino bone in the photo above. I would say most of the content could be summarized as ashfall mixed with a lot of biomass. I get you. It is so white I figured calcium carbonate was present. Texas caliche is synonymous with concrete. Never in my life have I ever found such hard clay. Must use hammer and chisel to free agates from it. Diatomaceous limestone in the SE US is rich in diatom skeletons that are very thin and dissolvable. Add the ph 4 tannic acid input from the constant tropical forest water run-off and you have a recipe for serious dissolved silica. The rivers carve 40 feet down thru the limestone bedrock. High walls of fossils in perfect condition imbedded in the limestone throughout.
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