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Post by miket on Jan 26, 2021 17:47:04 GMT -5
Here's today's attempts. I'm having issues getting the wire to stay in the grooves and as always the bails are being a pain in my backside. Practicing... Thanks for looking!
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Post by hummingbirdstones on Jan 26, 2021 18:54:24 GMT -5
I wish I could help you out, but I've never done a groove wrap. The only thing I can think of regarding getting the wire to stay in the groove is maybe you aren't getting the actual groove cut uniformly all the way around the cab? 
Keep at it -- you'll get it eventually!  |
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Jan 26, 2021 19:13:23 GMT -5
I usually stay away from grooving Montana agate due to the wire showing through. When I do it I cut a shallow groove about half depth and then use round wire that sticks out a bit. I do not like when square wire is sticking out as much but half of a round wire looks pretty good as long as it is uniform all the way around. Love that green cab whatever it is but that shape is definitely not an easy one to groove wrap. Very difficult to get the wire to stay inside a concave area. The wire just wants to take the shortest distance between point A and point B skipping over the dip in the stone.
Chuck
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Post by jasoninsd on Jan 26, 2021 20:12:37 GMT -5
 I'm just gonna sit back and absorb all the info that gets posted in this thread! I like the comments made my Chuck...and agree with the assessment of the second cab...that one's particularly gorgeous! Right or wrong, I can see using a drop of super glue in the groove on the concave edges...I think NevadaBill mentioned this the other day... I also agree with Robin and think it's going to make a world of difference once you get that depth controller so you can keep uniform depth around the entire cab...
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Jan 26, 2021 20:19:45 GMT -5
I'm just gonna sit back and absorb all the info that gets posted in this thread! I like the comments made my Chuck...and agree with the assessment of the second cab...that one's particularly gorgeous! Right or wrong, I can see using a drop of super glue in the groove on the concave edges...I think NevadaBill mentioned this the other day... I also agree with Robin and think it's going to make a world of difference once you get that depth controller so you can keep uniform depth around the entire cab... I cringe a little bit inside when I hear the word glue and jewelry in the same sentence. I get that same feeling when I hear things like clear coat and polyurethane when it comes to shiny rocks, lol. If a groove wrap is going to be the plan for a stone then make the cab in a shape that is more conducive to groove wrapping. largest radius's possible at every corner and no concave areas are two main things. These things are learned over time though. Chuck |
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Post by jasoninsd on Jan 26, 2021 20:49:29 GMT -5
 I'm just gonna sit back and absorb all the info that gets posted in this thread! I like the comments made my Chuck...and agree with the assessment of the second cab...that one's particularly gorgeous! Right or wrong, I can see using a drop of super glue in the groove on the concave edges...I think NevadaBill mentioned this the other day... I also agree with Robin and think it's going to make a world of difference once you get that depth controller so you can keep uniform depth around the entire cab... I cringe a little bit inside when I hear the word glue and jewelry in the same sentence. I get that same feeling when I hear things like clear coat and polyurethane when it comes to shiny rocks, lol. If a groove wrap is going to be the plan for a stone then make the cab in a shape that is more conducive to groove wrapping. largest radius's possible at every corner and no concave areas are two main things. These things are learned over time though. Chuck Totally understandable!  But...without any form of adhesive, what IS the solution for maintaining a tight wrap when there IS a concave surface? I get it, don't make a wrap with a concave edge right from the start...but again, what is the solution for the times when the cab calls for that shape? (I reread this and it isn't meant to sound "harsh" in the questioning at all by the way. ) |
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Post by victor1941 on Jan 26, 2021 20:55:21 GMT -5
Cab #2 is a killer. Great work on the cab!
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Post by hummingbirdstones on Jan 26, 2021 21:22:46 GMT -5
I cringe a little bit inside when I hear the word glue and jewelry in the same sentence. I get that same feeling when I hear things like clear coat and polyurethane when it comes to shiny rocks, lol. If a groove wrap is going to be the plan for a stone then make the cab in a shape that is more conducive to groove wrapping. largest radius's possible at every corner and no concave areas are two main things. These things are learned over time though. Chuck Totally understandable! But...without any form of adhesive, what IS the solution for maintaining a tight wrap when there IS a concave surface? I get it, don't make a wrap with a concave edge right from the start...but again, what is the solution for the times when the cab calls for that shape? (I reread this and it isn't meant to sound "harsh" in the questioning at all by the way. ) Jason, I think you can groove wrap a concave curve in a groove wrap. I've done wire wrapped stones with concave curves and I'm sure rockjunquie has too. The trick is to take your time and form the wire perfectly to the curve. Granted, it is not easy and it takes patience, but it can be done. One of the problems when wire wrapping is that you want to keep the wrap as tight as possible to keep it from looking messy. With a groove wrap, I would think it is not as necessary to keep the wire quite as tight (but I'm not positive because I've never done one). If the wire fits inside the groove well and the concave part of the wire is formed to the curve, I think a snug, but not really tight fit would work.
Having said all that, now I'm going to have to dig out my glass grinder, see if I can get the old diamond bit off and try a groove wrap myself to see if I'm correct.  |
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Post by jasoninsd on Jan 26, 2021 21:42:46 GMT -5
Totally understandable! But...without any form of adhesive, what IS the solution for maintaining a tight wrap when there IS a concave surface? I get it, don't make a wrap with a concave edge right from the start...but again, what is the solution for the times when the cab calls for that shape? (I reread this and it isn't meant to sound "harsh" in the questioning at all by the way. ) Jason, I think you can groove wrap a concave curve in a groove wrap. I've done wire wrapped stones with concave curves and I'm sure rockjunquie has too. The trick is to take your time and form the wire perfectly to the curve. Granted, it is not easy and it takes patience, but it can be done. One of the problems when wire wrapping is that you want to keep the wrap as tight as possible to keep it from looking messy. With a groove wrap, I would think it is not as necessary to keep the wire quite as tight (but I'm not positive because I've never done one). If the wire fits inside the groove well and the concave part of the wire is formed to the curve, I think a snug, but not really tight fit would work.
Having said all that, now I'm going to have to dig out my glass grinder, see if I can get the old diamond bit off and try a groove wrap myself to see if I'm correct.  Robin, thanks for taking the time to chime in. In that second cab pictured, I see the problems with making the wire taut on that right side...in fact, it might be nearly impossible. The concave edge ends right at the peak of the cab, so there's no surface for it to "adhere" to before it goes into the bail (the wrapped wire at the top - I think that's called the bail - LOL). |
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Post by hummingbirdstones on Jan 26, 2021 22:02:53 GMT -5
Robin, thanks for taking the time to chime in. In that second cab pictured, I see the problems with making the wire taut on that right side...in fact, it might be nearly impossible. The concave edge ends right at the peak of the cab, so there's no surface for it to "adhere" to before it goes into the bail (the wrapped wire at the top - I think that's called the bail - LOL). I see what you're saying, but that curve is not that severe and wire holds its shape when it is formed. If the wire were formed to the curve and then just slightly bent inward at the top (the other side too) to where the bail is formed, I think it would work.
You are correct, sir! It is called a bail.  |
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Post by jasoninsd on Jan 26, 2021 22:36:09 GMT -5
Robin, thanks for taking the time to chime in. In that second cab pictured, I see the problems with making the wire taut on that right side...in fact, it might be nearly impossible. The concave edge ends right at the peak of the cab, so there's no surface for it to "adhere" to before it goes into the bail (the wrapped wire at the top - I think that's called the bail - LOL). I see what you're saying, but that curve is not that severe and wire holds its shape when it is formed. If the wire were formed to the curve and then just slightly bent inward at the top (the other side too) to where the bail is formed, I think it would work.
You are correct, sir! It is called a bail. Thanks for your patience with me. I've got to use all Mike's threads for my questions before I tackle these things one of these days! |
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Jan 26, 2021 22:49:57 GMT -5
I cringe a little bit inside when I hear the word glue and jewelry in the same sentence. I get that same feeling when I hear things like clear coat and polyurethane when it comes to shiny rocks, lol. If a groove wrap is going to be the plan for a stone then make the cab in a shape that is more conducive to groove wrapping. largest radius's possible at every corner and no concave areas are two main things. These things are learned over time though. Chuck Totally understandable! But...without any form of adhesive, what IS the solution for maintaining a tight wrap when there IS a concave surface? I get it, don't make a wrap with a concave edge right from the start...but again, what is the solution for the times when the cab calls for that shape? (I reread this and it isn't meant to sound "harsh" in the questioning at all by the way. ) I don't do this for a living but on concave areas like that the best I have come up with is to wrap the wire around just like what is shown above then let the stone fall out so you have just the wire in your hand. Now push the concave portion in further to over exaggerate the concave portion. Now put the stone back inside and it will force the wire outward and should stay in the groove better. Some things are just easy to do then they are to explain. Chuck |
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Post by miket on Jan 27, 2021 10:20:40 GMT -5
I usually stay away from grooving Montana agate due to the wire showing through. When I do it I cut a shallow groove about half depth and then use round wire that sticks out a bit. I do not like when square wire is sticking out as much but half of a round wire looks pretty good as long as it is uniform all the way around. Love that green cab whatever it is but that shape is definitely not an easy one to groove wrap. Very difficult to get the wire to stay inside a concave area. The wire just wants to take the shortest distance between point A and point B skipping over the dip in the stone. Chuck I don't mind the Montana, I think it looks better wrapped this way than the other wraps I've done with clear stones. I believe that I was told the green stone was Jade and that's exactly the one I was talking about when I mentioned the wire not staying where it was supposed to. I suppose I could have cheated and put a drop of glue in there to hold the wire...maybe next time.
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Post by miket on Jan 27, 2021 10:23:26 GMT -5
I'm just gonna sit back and absorb all the info that gets posted in this thread! I like the comments made my Chuck...and agree with the assessment of the second cab...that one's particularly gorgeous! Right or wrong, I can see using a drop of super glue in the groove on the concave edges...I think NevadaBill mentioned this the other day... I also agree with Robin and think it's going to make a world of difference once you get that depth controller so you can keep uniform depth around the entire cab... I cringe a little bit inside when I hear the word glue and jewelry in the same sentence. I get that same feeling when I hear things like clear coat and polyurethane when it comes to shiny rocks, lol. If a groove wrap is going to be the plan for a stone then make the cab in a shape that is more conducive to groove wrapping. largest radius's possible at every corner and no concave areas are two main things. These things are learned over time though. Chuck Maybe it's time to get serious and maybe get some templates- and actually have a plan on what I'm going to do with a stone. Right now I'm learning from my mistakes... |
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Post by jasoninsd on Jan 27, 2021 10:23:51 GMT -5
Totally understandable! But...without any form of adhesive, what IS the solution for maintaining a tight wrap when there IS a concave surface? I get it, don't make a wrap with a concave edge right from the start...but again, what is the solution for the times when the cab calls for that shape? (I reread this and it isn't meant to sound "harsh" in the questioning at all by the way. ) I don't do this for a living but on concave areas like that the best I have come up with is to wrap the wire around just like what is shown above then let the stone fall out so you have just the wire in your hand. Now push the concave portion in further to over exaggerate the concave portion. Now put the stone back inside and it will force the wire outward and should stay in the groove better. Some things are just easy to do then they are to explain. Chuck You explained that perfectly! I totally understand what you're describing and makes absolute sense to me. Thanks for chiming back in on this one Chuck. |
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Post by miket on Jan 27, 2021 10:24:10 GMT -5
Cab #2 is a killer. Great work on the cab! Thanks Victor! |
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Post by miket on Jan 27, 2021 10:26:49 GMT -5
Totally understandable! But...without any form of adhesive, what IS the solution for maintaining a tight wrap when there IS a concave surface? I get it, don't make a wrap with a concave edge right from the start...but again, what is the solution for the times when the cab calls for that shape? (I reread this and it isn't meant to sound "harsh" in the questioning at all by the way. ) Jason, I think you can groove wrap a concave curve in a groove wrap. I've done wire wrapped stones with concave curves and I'm sure rockjunquie has too. The trick is to take your time and form the wire perfectly to the curve. Granted, it is not easy and it takes patience, but it can be done. One of the problems when wire wrapping is that you want to keep the wrap as tight as possible to keep it from looking messy. With a groove wrap, I would think it is not as necessary to keep the wire quite as tight (but I'm not positive because I've never done one). If the wire fits inside the groove well and the concave part of the wire is formed to the curve, I think a snug, but not really tight fit would work.
Having said all that, now I'm going to have to dig out my glass grinder, see if I can get the old diamond bit off and try a groove wrap myself to see if I'm correct. I've found in my limited experience that I can get wires to follow curves (mostly) with regular wraps but I think Chuck hit the nail on the head when he said the wire wants to take the shortest distance. Which is fine on everything but a concave curve, apparently.
And yes, please do a groove wrap, Robin.... |
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Post by rockjunquie on Jan 27, 2021 10:27:01 GMT -5
I usually stay away from grooving Montana agate due to the wire showing through. When I do it I cut a shallow groove about half depth and then use round wire that sticks out a bit. I do not like when square wire is sticking out as much but half of a round wire looks pretty good as long as it is uniform all the way around. Love that green cab whatever it is but that shape is definitely not an easy one to groove wrap. Very difficult to get the wire to stay inside a concave area. The wire just wants to take the shortest distance between point A and point B skipping over the dip in the stone. Chuck I don't mind the Montana, I think it looks better wrapped this way than the other wraps I've done with clear stones. I believe that I was told the green stone was Jade and that's exactly the one I was talking about when I mentioned the wire not staying where it was supposed to. I suppose I could have cheated and put a drop of glue in there to hold the wire...maybe next time.
Glue won't work. Maybe a little epoxy, but it can be done without glue or epoxy. Mark your wire just at the spot that it starts going straight up the side. Remove it and form it perfectly to the shape. You'll want to hammer it with a leather mallet (or another hammer that won't mar the wire). When it is hardened and fitting the curve perfectly you shouldn't have any wire showing. |
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Post by miket on Jan 27, 2021 10:28:35 GMT -5
Totally understandable! But...without any form of adhesive, what IS the solution for maintaining a tight wrap when there IS a concave surface? I get it, don't make a wrap with a concave edge right from the start...but again, what is the solution for the times when the cab calls for that shape? (I reread this and it isn't meant to sound "harsh" in the questioning at all by the way. ) I don't do this for a living but on concave areas like that the best I have come up with is to wrap the wire around just like what is shown above then let the stone fall out so you have just the wire in your hand. Now push the concave portion in further to over exaggerate the concave portion. Now put the stone back inside and it will force the wire outward and should stay in the groove better. Some things are just easy to do then they are to explain. Chuck You explained it perfectly, Chuck. No matter how many times I rubbed the handles of my pliers against the curve the wire just wouldn't stay in. Next time I'll try this trick, thanks for the tip!
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Post by miket on Jan 27, 2021 10:29:16 GMT -5
I don't mind the Montana, I think it looks better wrapped this way than the other wraps I've done with clear stones. I believe that I was told the green stone was Jade and that's exactly the one I was talking about when I mentioned the wire not staying where it was supposed to. I suppose I could have cheated and put a drop of glue in there to hold the wire...maybe next time.
Glue won't work. Maybe a little epoxy, but it can be done without glue or epoxy. Mark your wire just at the spot that it starts going straight up the side. Remove it and form it perfectly to the shape. You'll want to hammer it with a leather mallet (or another hammer that won't mar the wire). When it is hardened and fitting the curve perfectly you shouldn't have any wire showing. Thanks, Tela! |
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