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Post by holajonathan on Aug 25, 2021 15:54:45 GMT -5
This is a new model HP 14" slab saw with a modified Lortone carriage assembly. I broke the spring on the split-nut mechanism. My fault for pulling the lever back too far. You will see a spring in the photo. I managed to install that sight unseen. It is just a spring I had in my shop -- not the OEM replacement. The spring is too loose. I need a tighter spring, which I cannot install sight unseen.       I can't figure out how to get access to replace the spring. I removed the carriage bearings and the set screws on top that adjust the distance between the bearings and the rails that the carriage rides on. (This part of the carriage design is different from the Lortone, which had these adjustments on the bottom, as I understand it). Despite removing all 3 bearings and set screws, I can't get the carriage free from the rails. The little arms that hold the bearings are still in the way, and even with the set screws removed entirely, they do not pivot down far enough to free the carriage from the bars. In theory I could remove remove those little arms, but that is crazy. I can't see what I'm doing and I would need to get two wrenches in an area where my hands barely fit. Does anyone know how to I am supposed to replace the spring? Should I remove the bolts holding the bars in place and remove the carriage and bars all together? Do I have to remove the oil pan and tip the saw on its side? Please help. |
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Post by catmandewe on Aug 25, 2021 23:45:29 GMT -5
Did HP go with the pan in the bottom like Lortone used to?
If so two or three nuts and you lift the whole thing out of the pan and turn it on its side, much easier than taking it apart.
I have not worked on a newer one yet so I am not sure what parts they copied over.
Tony
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Post by catmandewe on Aug 25, 2021 23:48:47 GMT -5
Looking at your pictures it looks like the little square stock holders in the first two photos should flip up out of the way after you loosen it up, pretty nifty design if so.
Tony
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Post by holajonathan on Aug 26, 2021 1:56:51 GMT -5
catmandewe Mr. Tony, I already liked you because you know how to stuff a box with agates like the box did you wrong. Now I've got another reason. You found the easy solution that was right in front of my face. After removing the bearings the little blocks do in fact flip all the way up, allowing the carriage to be lifted right off the rails. The only trick is getting the split nut arm in the right position so it doesn't get hung up on the threaded auto-feed shaft. I kept trying to flip the blocks down, but they won't go down far enough to get around the rails. Once I tried your solution I had the carriage off, the spring installed, and the carriage back on in less than 10 minutes. Not bad.    HP made some good design changes with the carriage from the Lortone design. I've got no complaints with the saw so far after 100+ hours of cutting. But they really should pull together a basic manual for it. The saw is cutting again as I type this, so mission accomplished. When I get through cutting the $1000 in Montana agates you already sold me, I'll be sure to come back for more. I really appreciate your help. Jonathan
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Post by catmandewe on Aug 26, 2021 12:45:14 GMT -5
Just glad I was able to help.
Happy cutting!
Tony
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stefan
Cave Dweller 
Member since January 2005
Posts: 14,113
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Post by stefan on Aug 29, 2021 11:10:46 GMT -5
Great job Tony! HP used to have a great video showing how to do just as Tony described, but it is gone now. Also don't hesitate to reach out to them. They have been wonderful with all my questions and concerns. They even called me a couple weeks ago to see what I was cutting, and how the saw was working for me. I'm cutting right now and just love how easy and consistent this saw cuts. Set it up, turn it on, and walk away. I have the HT14 also!
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Post by holajonathan on Aug 30, 2021 17:56:38 GMT -5
Great job Tony! HP used to have a great video showing how to do just as Tony described, but it is gone now. Also don't hesitate to reach out to them. They have been wonderful with all my questions and concerns. They even called me a couple weeks ago to see what I was cutting, and how the saw was working for me. I'm cutting right now and just love how easy and consistent this saw cuts. Set it up, turn it on, and walk away. I have the HT14 also! The saw does cut very well and has generally been hassle free. I was pulling the split-nut arm way back and sort of locking it into the free position, which allowed me to use two hands to position the carriage. Apparently you are not supposed to pull the arm back that far, and the spring on my broke about after 6 months of abuse. I don't blame HP. I like the saw well enough that I bought their high speed 10" trim saw and I recently bought their 10" auto-feed slab saw as well for smaller rough. The prices on all their saws went up by a lot recently, 20% in some cases. The HT14 was good deal when I got it for around $1300, but it would be a harder decision at $1700, the current price. The HT10 was $999 about two years ago, which was a killer deal. Now it is $1300. Still no great 10" autofeed alternative without paying twice as much, but their prices sure did rise quickly! This is going to sound crazy, but I am kind of avoiding calling HP because they won't stop calling me! They call to see how I am doing and what I am cutting... Then to congratulate me and to see how I like my saw... Then to tell me my order shipped... Then to remind me about my saw's warranty... Then to confirm that my order was delivered... Then to thank me, again... Then to tell me I started the checkout process on their website but didn't finish... Twice in two days. On balance, I appreciate the eager, proactive customer service. But when I have more calls in my cell phone history from HP than from my wife, something is wrong. |
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stefan
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2005
Posts: 14,113
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Post by stefan on Aug 31, 2021 17:01:23 GMT -5
LOL Yes same here with the calls as for the saw being ready to ship! I had the saw for a month when they told me it was ready to ship!. I also got the saw at $1300. It went up between the time I ordered and paid my deposit, and the time it actually made it to the States. I was very worried that I was going to be charged the higher amount and called them to confirm the price. They assured me I was locked in despite my order showing the higher price. They called to authorize the payment when the saw arrived and did indeed honor the $1300 price with out even a prompt from me.
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Post by Rockindad on Aug 31, 2021 18:55:51 GMT -5
HP does have a manual for their 16" and larger saws, not sure how applicable it would be to yours as the vise, rails, carriage, etc. are different. Agree that is rather poor to not have a basic manual available. Mention it next time they call you, or the time after that, the one after that, and the.............
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Post by holajonathan on Sept 3, 2021 11:08:11 GMT -5
HP does have a manual for their 16" and larger saws, not sure how applicable it would be to yours as the vise, rails, carriage, etc. are different. Agree that is rather poor to not have a basic manual available. Mention it next time they call you, or the time after that, the one after that, and the............. I looked at the manual for the larger saws and nothing really applies to my saw. I did mention it to them, and they said they are making lots of YouTube videos instead of a manual. I wouldn't mind that approach if they made videos that covered all of the basics and put up an index of the videos so it worked more like a reference tool. But removing the carriage is fairly basic and there is no video that. I don't see any videos on basic maintenance either, or more advanced "maintenance" type repairs like replacing parts on the machine that wear out by design (the split nut for the autofeed, for example). The lack of a manual is my only gripe about the saw, really. It has held up well to a lot of cutting and even some unintentional abuse. Just yesterday a big piece of polish flint slipped out of the vise mid-cut, and bent my blade in half, binding up the saw. By the time I realized what had happened the motor was very hot and making a clicking noise. I let the motor cool down, changed the blade, checked to make sure I hadn't glazed the belt... and it fired right back up, cutting another 6 hours straight before I stopped for the night. I have a few other small gripes, but nothing major. I wish it held more oil so I didn't have to change it so often. If I am in full slabbing mode, running the saw 8-10 hours a day, the oil needs changed in about a week. I also wish the lid closed a little more tightly so extremely fine oil mist didn't pour out of the small gaps whenever the saw is running. I'm not really sure how this could be fixed, however, without adding some sort of gasket, which doesn't seem like a viable option. Finally, I wish the arbor shaft cover and the inside blade flange were about 1/4" lower so there was a little offset from the bottom of the vise. The bottom of the vise seems to be perfectly level with the top of the arbor shaft cover and inside blade flange, which requires that rocks be clamped in the vise so that no part of the rock hangs any lower than the bottom of the vise. Maybe this is a common design of all slab saws? |
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Post by Peruano on Sept 3, 2021 11:48:12 GMT -5
Could it be you are changing your oil more often than necessary? One criterion for my slab saws is when the oil is so thick that it obscures (not just fogs) the observation window, . . . or when it approaches the chocolate pudding stage rather than just having suspended material. I run my saws hard but not so hard that they need to be cleaned on a two week basis. When I drain my saw about half or more of the volume is rock flour and the actual free flowing oil that runs eagerly out of the saw is limited. So its putty knife and scrapers to the task. Some oils are light enough that the rock flour settles out and leaves a layer of oil on top until it really get foul, but the oils that I have recently tend to suspend the rock material and just get thicker and thicker through time (one the stuff starts accumulating that is). Just thinking out loud here.
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Post by Rockindad on Sept 3, 2021 17:27:07 GMT -5
HP does have a manual for their 16" and larger saws, not sure how applicable it would be to yours as the vise, rails, carriage, etc. are different. Agree that is rather poor to not have a basic manual available. Mention it next time they call you, or the time after that, the one after that, and the............. I looked at the manual for the larger saws and nothing really applies to my saw. I did mention it to them, and they said they are making lots of YouTube videos instead of a manual. I wouldn't mind that approach if they made videos that covered all of the basics and put up an index of the videos so it worked more like a reference tool. But removing the carriage is fairly basic and there is no video that. I don't see any videos on basic maintenance either, or more advanced "maintenance" type repairs like replacing parts on the machine that wear out by design (the split nut for the autofeed, for example). The lack of a manual is my only gripe about the saw, really. It has held up well to a lot of cutting and even some unintentional abuse. Just yesterday a big piece of polish flint slipped out of the vise mid-cut, bending my blade in half and binding up the saw. By the time I realized what had happened the motor was very hot and making a clicking noise. I let the motor cool down, changed the blade, checked to make sure I hadn't glazed the belt... and it fired right back up, cutting another 6 hours straight before I stopped the night. I have a few other small gripes, but nothing major. I wish it held more oil so I didn't have to change it so often. If I am in full slabbing mode, running the saw 8-10 hours a day, the oil needs changed in about a week. I also wish the lid closed a little more tightly so extremely fine oil mist didn't pour out of the small gaps whenever the saw is running. Finally, I wish the arbor shaft cover and the inside blade flange were about 1/4" lower so there was a little offset from the bottom of the vise. The bottom of the vise seems to be perfectly level with the top of the shaft cover and inside flange, which requires that rocks be clamped in the vise so that no part of the rock hangs any lower than the bottom of the vise. Thanks for the honest feedback. Our next equipment investment will either be a slab saw or the parts to build a cab machine. Tough decision. |
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Post by holajonathan on Sept 3, 2021 19:41:51 GMT -5
Could it be you are changing your oil more often than necessary? One criterion for my slab saws is when the oil is so thick that it obscures (not just fogs) the observation window, . . . or when it approaches the chocolate pudding stage rather than just having suspended material. I run my saws hard but not so hard that they need to be cleaned on a two week basis. When I drain my saw about half or more of the volume is rock flour and the actual free flowing oil that runs eagerly out of the saw is limited. So its putty knife and scrapers to the task. Some oils are light enough that the rock flour settles out and leaves a layer of oil on top until it really get foul, but the oils that I have recently tend to suspend the rock material and just get thicker and thicker through time (one the stuff starts accumulating that is). Just thinking out loud here. The first oil change or two, when the saw was new and shiny, were definitely done too soon. But not anymore. Now, I change it when every surface inside the saw is caked with blood red pudding. I actually just changed it today and even the inside of the lid and the inside walls had about 1/4" of pudding stuck to them. I got about 16 ounces max of free flowing oil out of it, and then had to start using a squeeze to get the pudding to the drain port. My normal routine is once I start getting a lot of thinner pudding that sits on the carriage, rails, etc, I grab one or two big red rocks (used a 10 pound chuck of lavic jasper this time) and I slab that until when the saw stops, there is a decent amount of thick pudding like slurry stuck to the blade. That means the blade is not being cooled well with free flowing oil, so it's time to change it. The inside of the saw is so nasty by that point I would probably clean it even if it weren't for the fact that is hard on the blade to run it in sludge. |
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Post by holajonathan on Sept 3, 2021 19:57:06 GMT -5
After this photo I did about one more full day of cutting before changing the oil. To the right of the carriage you can see where the pudding is showing on the surface of the oil,  That is banded iron formation in the vise, a rock that is wonderful at mucking up oil. I finished that rock and then slabbed a big bloody chunk of lavic jasper right before I changed the oil. Another great rock if you're looking to muck up the oil fast! And this is 3 cuts in to the new oil.  I don't clean it out 100% when I change the oil. It takes about an hour to get 90-95% of the gunk out of the saw, but another half hour to get the last 5-10%. It's just going to get dirty again anyways, so I don't see the sense is cleaning every nook and cranny. |
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Post by HankRocks on Sept 3, 2021 20:17:56 GMT -5
Your saw cleaning philosophy matches my own. I don't plan on eating off the saw so close enough is good enough.
Also, I have some Tiger Iron that I want to cut, going to let it wait until oil is near it's end-of-life before cutting it.
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Post by Peruano on Sept 4, 2021 6:19:30 GMT -5
True, some rock fouls the oil quicker than others. Keep on cutting.
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Post by Rockoonz on Sept 4, 2021 10:11:24 GMT -5
This is going to sound crazy, but I am kind of avoiding calling HP because they won't stop calling me! They call to see how I am doing and what I am cutting... Then to congratulate me and to see how I like my saw... Then to tell me my order shipped... Then to remind me about my saw's warranty... Then to confirm that my order was delivered... Then to thank me, again... Then to tell me I started the checkout process on their website but didn't finish... Twice in two days. On balance, I appreciate the eager, proactive customer service. But when I have more calls in my cell phone history from HP than from my wife, something is wrong. You need to call your wife more often...  Good to hear that John and Sherman are being more communicative now. I'm still quite hesitant to buy Chinese made equipment, but I have to recognize that the Rowlands have done a lot to improve every aspect of their company from what it was at the beginning. I much prefer good communication to being virtually ghosted once they have my money. Do their 12" and 14" saws have a drain plug? That has been my biggest gripe with the Lortone original design. I really didn't like bailing them out, so I never kept one for very long. Plus, I found an old Mojave Industries/Jensen/Royal style 10" cabinet slab saw and the design is much more robust. A lock open option for the feed clutch would also be a huge upgrade IMO, I don't like having to hold it either, but then on the other hand when the saw runs for 30 minutes or more and I realize I forgot to engage it, well there's that too. |
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Post by Rockoonz on Sept 4, 2021 10:35:57 GMT -5
Your saw cleaning philosophy matches my own. I don't plan on eating off the saw so close enough is good enough. Also, I have some Tiger Iron that I want to cut, going to let it wait until oil is near it's end-of-life before cutting it. My frequency of cleaning philosophy has changed slightly. As soon as I hit pudding stage and it starts seriously sticking to the lid, if I stop and drain/clean/fill it takes half the time. When I tilt the saw about 20 degrees almost everything comes right out, and it's also about the right time to remove and re-swedge the blade. The oil also filters through the paper bag oil reclaimer easily. Definitely cut the "muddy" rocks last. |
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stefan
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2005
Posts: 14,113
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Post by stefan on Sept 4, 2021 13:45:41 GMT -5
They do indeed have a drain plug. Great big honking one (3/4 inch? maybe 1 inch) I;m not sure if they have changed the design but my saw does indeed lock open on the split nut. You need to push the lever down slightly when you hit the rear stop and then it pulls back a little further and locks into the open position. As for being made in China, yes I get it 100% I was hesitant also. Then I watched a few videos from their factory where John was showing off all their recent builds. I liked what I saw. Skilled Craftsman working hard, up to date CNC machinery, A well lit modern factory with proper safety equipment and organized assembly stations. I'm not saying it was perfect, but it looked proper. If they are cutting corners, I'm hard pressed to find where. Welds are high quality, parts fit together like they should, powder coating is outstanding, and material strength is perhaps a little on the Overkill side.
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Post by holajonathan on Sept 4, 2021 23:24:14 GMT -5
HankRocksWhat I called banded iron formation is basically tiger iron without the tiger. It is from South Africa just like all the good tiger iron I have seen. It's a metallic base rock (hematite) with colorful jasper bands. Just no tiger's eye bands.  It seems like rocks with a lot of hematite or other forms of iron gunk up the oil faster than cutting agates. Lavic jasper and other red Mohave jaspers seem to do the same, as does crazy lace matrix which is rich in iron. I don't know if this is just psychological -- since it's easier to see that intensely red oil is sticking to everything inside the saw -- or if it is actually thickens the oil more quickly than rocks without a lot of iron. I tend to think that something about the iron really does make the oil get thick faster. But I have no hard evidence of this.
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