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Post by Rockindad on Nov 8, 2021 19:46:47 GMT -5
Very cool contest, Al! I made the same mistake as Jason by continuing to visit but forgetting to enter. But honestly, I was more curious to see what the other guesses were and how they match up with the results you got. I want to get away from using SiC in the Lot-O and can’t say how much I appreciate seeing the results of your experiment. SiC in the Lot-O leads to more frustration than any other stages. Once I hit the AO steps, everything just runs better which makes me think the Lot-O may just be better attuned to AO. The loto can’t deal with the removed material from 180ish grit unless you clean it out at least 1x/day. The loto can’t deal with the removed material from 180ish grit unless you clean it out at least 1x/day. A shame about the Lot-O. Great machine but lacks hp to roll thick slurries. Rockindad tuned his to roll AO 80. AO 80 sheds a lot of rock mud like SiC. A shorter vibration stroke(like the Lot-O's) with lots of power to maintain said short stroke + thick slurry is/will be the way to pre-polish/polish of the soft ones(and also do the Mohs 7 stones). IMO PS It is a step backwards to do clean outs with coarse AO, it takes a few days for it to round off coarse AO and wear it down to polish sized AO. Great ! Reduces clean outs, abrasive usage and slurry additives if used. But water still has to be added as needed to prevent overly thick slurry through out the AO wear down though. Before we started using the 80AO in the Lot-O we were using 120/220SiC. While adjusting the dowel position helped immensely it would still bog down during this stage occasionally. I have a post in some other thread talking about using a spacer under the barrel to keep it from settling into the frame too much. This was the final piece of the puzzle for us- no issues since. I do not see going back to SiC in the Lot-O under normal circumstances, but some conclusions we reached through all of the experimenting: -I think using two Tbsp. of SiC as is commonly recommended for a normal load is excessive and is probably to blame for a lot of the issues people have. The same recipes that call for this much SiC will also tell you that only 1/2 tsp. for any AO stage is needed. Didn't ring true to me that you needed to use twelve times the amount of SiC as AO. We used as little as one Tbsp. and it got the job done and ran much better. -If you find yourself bogging down, do not do a full cleanout unless you want to go backwards (this is true whether using AO, SiC, etc.). We have dumped the contents of the barrel onto a sifting screen (colander would do as well), rinsed out the barrel and put the load back into the barrel. Getting rid of a bit of the slurry works wonders and is very easy to do with a Lot-O barrel as you can just lift it out of the frame. The obvious advantage is you are not going backwards, you are still continuing on with broken down grit, just a little bit less of it. I've got a lot of notes from studying the Lot-O, I'll get them together and try to make one cohesive thread in the near future. Not trying to convince anybody, just sharing our experiences. |
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Post by knave on Nov 8, 2021 19:54:57 GMT -5
With some softer materials I have used the loto for a bit of shaping and grinding
I much prefer dealing with the loto vs my Model B.
In that case yes I do a daily 120 clean out with 1 T new grit until I’m happy with shape.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller 
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,602
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Post by jamesp on Nov 9, 2021 10:32:36 GMT -5
Staying on point with the use of AO 80 these 2 recipes are related. One uses SiC 500+AO 220, the other combines the two steps and uses just AO 80.
Side note - I want to share an awareness of using SiC 500 instead of 120 or 220 or 120/220 in the Lot-O vibe. And the Vibrasonic.
The Lot-O will run SiC 500 w/out getting so constipated(yes, vibes get sick too lol).
I use like #4 and #8(same sizes as 0 buckshot and BB turkey shot) in the rotary with no 220 step. Very coarse grit.
Then skip 220 and do SIC 500 even when using SiC 4 in the rotary.
A 10 day run in the rotary or a 2 day run in either vibe with SiC 500 preps the rocks for going straight to AO 220 in the Lotto or sonic. I do the SiC 500 run in the vibe for 2 days.
4 step recipe(more conservative)
SiC 4/8 rotary to shape
SiC 500 vibe for 2 days 1 tablespoon (for 8 pounds media/rock or glass)
AO 220 vibe for 3 days 1 tablespoon(probably too much)
AO 14,000 shed polish vibe for 1.5 days 1 tablespoon(probably too much) (for a high polish on Mohs 7 or even glass.)
*AO 220 is not far from AO 500, many people stop at AO 500 because of it's fine polish. AO 220 is similar.
Alternate 3 step recipe(seems less conservative)
SiC 4/8 rotary to shape
AO 80 in vibe 5 days 1 tablespoon (also for 8 pounds)
AO 14,000 shed polish 2 days 1 tablespoon
ETA 1 - A note on SiC 500 verses AO 220 - even though the SiC 500 is finer, it is way more aggressive than AO 220, produces way more mud. But no where near as much as SiC 120 and 220 making SiC 500 usable in my Lot-O. Again, saying that 120/220 is over kill. If memory serves, SiC 500 also makes more mud than AO 80. Telling how totally different SiC is from AO.
ETA 2 "- I think using two Tbsp. of SiC as is commonly recommended for a normal load is excessive and is probably to blame for a lot of the issues people have. The same recipes that call for this much SiC will also tell you that only 1/2 tsp. for any AO stage is needed. Didn't ring true to me that you needed to use twelve times the amount of SiC as AO. We used as little as one Tbsp. and it got the job done and ran much better."
I agree, that is way too much SiC Rockindad. Overdosing abrasives is a bad idea and causes nothing but problems in the vibe. I see that you use 1/2 teaspoon AO for Lot-O 4 pounds; I intend to try 1 teaspoon(instead of one tablespoon) of AO for sonic 8 pounds. IMO overdosing just makes the vibe much longer to break down the abrasive and is also overkill. I see people using way too much AO in both rotaries and vibes. My ancient Sonic instruction says to use like 4 tablespoons of AO in a 14 pound hopper - insane. Thankfully Lot-o instructions came out with much lower AO doses - yeah !
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Post by Son Of Beach on Nov 12, 2021 20:41:45 GMT -5
Big thanks to Rockindad for all this goodness, I"ll have my hands full for a while...and also to jamesp for passing the buck. Better to be lucky than good  Question.....The 80AO is used secondary in the vibe, not as a first stage shaping tool, correct? |
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Post by Rockindad on Nov 13, 2021 9:04:15 GMT -5
Big thanks to Rockindad for all this goodness, I"ll have my hands full for a while...and also to jamesp for passing the buck. Better to be lucky than good Question.....The 80AO is used secondary in the vibe, not as a first stage shaping tool, correct? Have fun Chad! Wanted to send some stuff that is really easy to polish stuff to some that may require more work. While some are more challenging we have been able to lay a nice shine down on all of those materials except for the Dumortierite, that's a new one for us. As to your question I'll tell you what I do: Step 1: Grind/Shape in rotaries with SiC Step 2: 80 AO in vibe>>>>>All the way to polish Step 3: Polish in vibe We are phasing this out as letting the broken down 80 run another day or so gets a high polish If you are all rotary it is still the same two steps. SiC is hands down superior for material removal/shaping. Get the stones to the desired shape with SiC and then roll in the AO to finish. |
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Post by Son Of Beach on Nov 13, 2021 9:30:22 GMT -5
Big thanks to Rockindad for all this goodness, I"ll have my hands full for a while...and also to jamesp for passing the buck. Better to be lucky than good Question.....The 80AO is used secondary in the vibe, not as a first stage shaping tool, correct? Have fun Chad! Wanted to send some stuff that is really easy to polish stuff to some that may require more work. While some are more challenging we have been able to lay a nice shine down on all of those materials except for the Dumortierite, that's a new one for us. As to your question I'll tell you what I do: Step 1: Grind/Shape in rotaries with SiC Step 2: 80 AO in vibe>>>>>All the way to polish Step 3: Polish in vibe We are phasing this out as letting the broken down 80 run another day or so gets a high polish If you are all rotary it is still the same two steps. SiC is hands down superior for material removal/shaping. Get the stones to the desired shape with SiC and then roll in the AO to finish. Awesome. I did one piece of Dumeritertie, or mine was called my desert lapis anyway, and it took a decent shine but I couldn't get it to stop fracturing. It's a nice blue when it's done.
Desert Lapis on top, traditional Lapis on the bottom.  |
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Post by Son Of Beach on Oct 29, 2023 15:39:44 GMT -5
Slightly resurrecting this thread.
Going to try out a 3/3/3 recipe. 3 Tablespoons in 3lb Tumbler for 3 weeks.
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