jawsjr
starting to shine!
Member since June 2019
Posts: 47
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Post by jawsjr on May 15, 2022 11:15:59 GMT -5
UPDATE!!!!! The problem has been discovered and steps too place to fix the problemHello, I am struggling. I cannot get a cabochon pre-form to stay attached to anything (wood or steel) no matter what I do. I think I have a theory, but I first want to try here. So this latest round, I am using the traditional method. I am using new DOP Wax purchased from the Rock Shed, I am heating and melting the dop wax using the Inland Craft Dop Station. I am heating the pre-forms on the edge of the Dop Station. So here are two pictures. The first is the dop station and the second is what just happened.   When dopping, I put a good amount of DOP Wax on the stick twirling it around then I press it on the pre-form, but not to hard, I then press the wax on the preform and around the stick. As you can tell in the image, I am not having adhesion problems with the pre-form nor the stick, rather the DOP wax is fracturing. So lets look at the equipment I am using. My Cabochon machine is 6" Diamond Grinding/Polishing Unit by Kingsley North The wheel this always happens on is the Heirloom Sintered Diamond Wheel 80 grit which is pictured below.  Looking back I never had this problem until I installed this wheel. It is perfectly balanced, no vibration while spinning, no wobble, but when grinding, there is one hell of a vibration coming back up through the stone into the sick when grinding. Has anybody else had problems like this where the dop wax is adhered very well but fractures and breaks because of the vibration caused by the grinding action on this wheel type? See, if I can make it through this wheel, then I am home free and able to easily complete the cab. When as soon as I post this, I am going to go back and install the 80 grit Kingsley North Diamond Grinding Wheel that I took off which is like the one pictured below.  But this is crazy, if the high end Sintered Diamond Wheel is causing this problem, I will be so very disappointed. If this is causing the problem, I do not thing there is a way to smooth the wheel out to remove the vibration coming through because the vibration is from the grinding action? I am sure there is not. Is a 140 Grit Wheel more suited for what I am doing? Additional notes: I used to solely use Steel Rods and Gel Superglue and I made close to 300 cabs using this method. Then all of a sudden all at one time. it started failing. Looking back, I think the failing started when I installed this Sintered Diamond Wheel. So I know this is all over the places, but I hop I provided enough detail to get some feedback. One other thing, this has happens about 33 percent of the time. This also happens when I used twice the amount of Dop wax as well as had the entire back of the stone covered with the wax formed up a good 1/2" up the stick. I have also tried different diameter of sticks and still have a very high failure rate. Again, if I can make it through the 80 grit Sintered Diamond Wheel, I have never had a pre-form come off while working on any one of the other wheels, which includes a 220 grit Sintered Diamond Wheel. Now I love the 80 grit Sintered Diamond Wheel because it does make quick work of removing material, especially on the forming of the pre-forms by hand. Putting the profile on, it does great work. But maybe it is too aggressive for the the processes I use. I will go and change the wheel now, and I should know the results within the next day or two, but I still need some feedback. This is suppose to be something that is fun, relaxing and enjoyable and for the past 4 weeks, this has been just the opposite and about ready to throw in the towel, which is frustrating because I finally found something I am good at and now I an failing at it. Here is a sample of some of my work so you know I am not talking crap.  Looking for advice, comments, suggestions, telling me I am an idiot, telling me I suck, telling me I am doing everything wrong, anything. Thanks!
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Post by Pat on May 15, 2022 11:32:10 GMT -5
I don’t know. I don’t use dop sticks, just fingers. Until you get the answer, maybe you could just hold the cab with your fingers on the troublesome wheel. I have a lot more control with fingers. Good luck!
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Post by rockjunquie on May 15, 2022 11:36:18 GMT -5
You are an idiot, you suck, you are doing everything wrong. There, I said it. Thanks for the opportunity to get away with it!! JK!!! Seriously, JK.
How old is your wax? I think you have overheated your wax. It's super easy to do. Also, if any dopped cabs sit in a cold room or outbuilding, the wax will not hold. It gets brittle.
Can't help with the wheel. Sorry.
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Post by stardiamond on May 15, 2022 11:42:53 GMT -5
Unless you want to polish backs, super glue is more reliable. For those who have mastered dop wax it is better. I haven't and gave up. I use a lot of glue because I don't want the cab to come off the stick. What I have learned working with glue, is after freezing. don't snap off. I use a chisel x-acto blade between the dop and the cab and whack the end of the knife with a utility knife. Snapping occasionally produces divots and fractures. I remove the excess glue with the chisel blade, acetone and q-tips.
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Post by hummingbirdstones on May 15, 2022 11:58:24 GMT -5
The only thing I can think of that might be causing the vibration is that the sintered wheel probably weighs a lot more than the other wheels on your machine and it is causing the vibration.
I know absolutely nothing about how machines work, but that's all I've got.
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jawsjr
starting to shine!
Member since June 2019
Posts: 47
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Post by jawsjr on May 15, 2022 12:02:35 GMT -5
You are an idiot, you suck, you are doing everything wrong. There, I said it. Thanks for the opportunity to get away with it!! JK!!! Seriously, JK.
How old is your wax? I think you have overheated your wax. It's super easy to do. Also, if any dopped cabs sit in a cold room or outbuilding, the wax will not hold. It gets brittle.
Can't help with the wheel. Sorry.
Thank you!! I needed to comments telling me I an idiot, I suck, I are doing everything wrong. LOL
As for your comments, unless the Inland Craft Dop Station is not heating up the wax correctly not sure, so I used one of those laser temp gauges, 153.6 Degrees F. I have not done anything to modify that. The wax, as I stated is new and purchased from The Rock Shed.
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jawsjr
starting to shine!
Member since June 2019
Posts: 47
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Post by jawsjr on May 15, 2022 12:06:00 GMT -5
When I was using the gel super glue and the steel rods, I heated the steel rods with a propane torch and the cab fell right off, then the glue still attached scraped right off with a glass scraper while the glue was still warm. and I polished the backs as well on all my cabs. If there was glue still on the steel rod, the propane torch burned it off. Unless you want to polish backs, super glue is more reliable. For those who have mastered dop wax it is better. I haven't and gave up. I use a lot of glue because I don't want the cab to come off the stick. What I have learned working with glue, is after freezing. don't snap off. I use a chisel x-acto blade between the dop and the cab and whack the end of the knife with a utility knife. Snapping occasionally produces divots and fractures. I remove the excess glue with the chisel blade, acetone and q-tips. |
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jawsjr
starting to shine!
Member since June 2019
Posts: 47
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Post by jawsjr on May 15, 2022 12:08:43 GMT -5
Oh I can do the same thing, that is how I taught myself first, but my hands do not allow me to hang on to the cabs for a long period of time. that is why I went to extra long Dop Sticks, 10" to 12" and much less hand cramping and actually sped up the entire process by about 25%. I don’t know. I don’t use dop sticks, just fingers. Until you get the answer, maybe you could just hold the cab with your fingers on the troublesome wheel. I have a lot more control with fingers. Good luck! |
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Post by stardiamond on May 15, 2022 12:10:59 GMT -5
glue the backs, wax the faces.
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Post by rockjunquie on May 15, 2022 12:22:59 GMT -5
You are an idiot, you suck, you are doing everything wrong. There, I said it. Thanks for the opportunity to get away with it!! JK!!! Seriously, JK.
How old is your wax? I think you have overheated your wax. It's super easy to do. Also, if any dopped cabs sit in a cold room or outbuilding, the wax will not hold. It gets brittle.
Can't help with the wheel. Sorry.
Thank you!! I needed to comments telling me I an idiot, I suck, I are doing everything wrong. LOL
As for your comments, unless the Inland Craft Dop Station is not heating up the wax correctly not sure, so I used one of those laser temp gauges, 153.6 Degrees F. I have not done anything to modify that. The wax, as I stated is new and purchased from The Rock Shed.
If you leave the wax in the pot for too long the solvents will burn off ruining the wax. I always turn it off as fast as I can. I mentioned that because, on my monitor, your wax looks rather pale. I really don't want to disparage the Rock Shed, but there is a Chinese knock off wax out there that is really awful. I threw mine out. It is a lighter color and didn't work worth a damn.
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Post by liveoak on May 15, 2022 12:40:01 GMT -5
one other tip that I don't think was mentioned with dop wax- I found it best to let the stones cool naturally on the stick before grinding.
Patty
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Post by Starguy on May 15, 2022 13:49:29 GMT -5
jawsjr It could be a number of issues. I’m always a proponent of starting with the cheap solutions. First attempt would be new dop wax. As rockjunquie said, there is some cheap wax out there. I usually cover my dop station with a soup can lid. It heats up a little faster that way. I also prep the dop sticks prior to dopping a preform. By this, I mean that I get a gob of wax on the stick then push it onto a sheet of copper plate I have. This gets the general shape of the wax pretty uniform and helps support the back of the cab when I actually attach the preform. The cold/cool copper plate hardens the wax pretty quickly and it seems to end up pretty dense and consolidated prior to actually dopping the preform. I try to get a pretty thin consistency wax when attaching the preforms. A little thinner layer on a good hot preform seems to stick pretty well. I’ve had some issues with the wax breaking but it’s pretty uncommon. Here’s a photo of my dop preforming setup. I can’t remember where but I read about this somewhere. I’ve been using it ever since.  Your new sintered wheel might be causing more drag on the preform. It’s probably just a matter of breaking it in more. Any new wheel causes more drag and more impacts on the preform. Sintered wheels are quite heavy which may be amplifying the impact aspect. Try a little lighter touch until the wheel smoothes out a little more, or try running a heavy piece of agate or jasper on it for several minutes. I can always feel high or oversized diamonds on a new wheel for quite a while after installation. They can lead to excessive chipping too. Good luck. I don’t think the problem is insurmountable. It is very frustrating though. Let us know if/when you get it solved. Sincerely, Brent.
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Post by victor1941 on May 15, 2022 15:01:26 GMT -5
If good dop wax failures occurred after the new wheel and the wheel is balanced and broken in I then think your technique must be modified for an aggressive 80 grit. I have had the initial grab break off well dopped cabs on both 60 and 80 grit wheels but now use 8" flat laps where this seldom occurs. I agree a lighter touch might help but also suggest you shape a bunch of cabs to break this wheel in.
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gemfeller
Cave Dweller 
Member since June 2011
Posts: 4,060 
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Post by gemfeller on May 15, 2022 15:57:17 GMT -5
jawsjr Any report on how the wax holds up after changing wheels? Reading your post it appears to me the problem is the sintered wheel. You indicate there's no problem if you can get past it without the wax breaking. Are you certain it's properly balanced? If it is, what kind of pressure are you applying when using it? My suspicions are along the same line as posed by Starguy . Maybe the bigger grit is pressuring the stone more. Or it's not truly balanced -- you say you get really severe vibrations only when using it. I use a 60 grit sintered wheel on my Genie with no issues. I use wax to dop but it's a different kind than you're using though I use much the same dopping technique you describe.
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jawsjr
starting to shine!
Member since June 2019
Posts: 47
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Post by jawsjr on May 15, 2022 16:24:59 GMT -5
Well I have an update. It seems the 80 grit Sintered Diamond Wheel is the problem. The Cabochon was chattering against it, even under LIGHT pressure. Look at these two photos where you can see dark spots where the stone was chattering against it. Note: I enhanced these to pictures to bring out the dark areas so they could be seen much easier, so again, I enhanced these photos.   I installed the other wheel the cab is so much smoother and after 15 test cabs of light tough all the way of to putting a heck of a lot of pressure on it, not one cab broke off. So, the chattering of the cab on the wheel was fracturing the hardened glue and causing this problem. A couple of things, the DOP wax that I god from The Rock Shed is not from China, it is a USA made blend. I do keep the DOPStation covered when heating up to heat it better. Outside of that, I think I may have figured it out by taking the time and going through the process in my head as I was typing out the original message. I will keep this up for others to be able to get something out of. If I remember, in a week, I will post another update. Hello, I am struggling. I cannot get a cabochon pre-form to stay attached to anything (wood or steel) no matter what I do. I think I have a theory, but I first want to try here. So this latest round, I am using the traditional method. I am using new DOP Wax purchased from the Rock Shed, I am heating and melting the dop wax using the Inland Craft Dop Station. I am heating the pre-forms on the edge of the Dop Station. So here are two pictures. The first is the dop station and the second is what just happened. When dopping, I put a good amount of DOP Wax on the stick twirling it around then I press it on the pre-form, but not to hard, I then press the wax on the preform and around the stick. As you can tell in the image, I am not having adhesion problems with the pre-form nor the stick, rather the DOP wax is fracturing. So lets look at the equipment I am using. My Cabochon machine is 6" Diamond Grinding/Polishing Unit by Kingsley North The wheel this always happens on is the Heirloom Sintered Diamond Wheel 80 grit which is pictured below. Looking back I never had this problem until I installed this wheel. It is perfectly balanced, no vibration while spinning, no wobble, but when grinding, there is one hell of a vibration coming back up through the stone into the sick when grinding. Has anybody else had problems like this where the dop wax is adhered very well but fractures and breaks because of the vibration caused by the grinding action on this wheel type? See, if I can make it through this wheel, then I am home free and able to easily complete the cab. When as soon as I post this, I am going to go back and install the 80 grit Kingsley North Diamond Grinding Wheel that I took off which is like the one pictured below. But this is crazy, if the high end Sintered Diamond Wheel is causing this problem, I will be so very disappointed. If this is causing the problem, I do not thing there is a way to smooth the wheel out to remove the vibration coming through because the vibration is from the grinding action? I am sure there is not. Is a 140 Grit Wheel more suited for what I am doing? Additional notes: I used to solely use Steel Rods and Gel Superglue and I made close to 300 cabs using this method. Then all of a sudden all at one time. it started failing. Looking back, I think the failing started when I installed this Sintered Diamond Wheel. So I know this is all over the places, but I hop I provided enough detail to get some feedback. One other thing, this has happens about 33 percent of the time. This also happens when I used twice the amount of Dop wax as well as had the entire back of the stone covered with the wax formed up a good 1/2" up the stick. I have also tried different diameter of sticks and still have a very high failure rate. Again, if I can make it through the 80 grit Sintered Diamond Wheel, I have never had a pre-form come off while working on any one of the other wheels, which includes a 220 grit Sintered Diamond Wheel. Now I love the 80 grit Sintered Diamond Wheel because it does make quick work of removing material, especially on the forming of the pre-forms by hand. Putting the profile on, it does great work. But maybe it is too aggressive for the the processes I use. I will go and change the wheel now, and I should know the results within the next day or two, but I still need some feedback. This is suppose to be something that is fun, relaxing and enjoyable and for the past 4 weeks, this has been just the opposite and about ready to throw in the towel, which is frustrating because I finally found something I am good at and now I an failing at it. Here is a sample of some of my work so you know I am not talking crap. Looking for advice, comments, suggestions, telling me I am an idiot, telling me I suck, telling me I am doing everything wrong, anything. Thanks! |
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hoolligan1938
spending too much on rocks
Member since January 2022
Posts: 253
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Post by hoolligan1938 on May 15, 2022 17:55:43 GMT -5
Well, this probably won't help you but, I have the same problem and I use the same dop pot as you. i've wondered about the pot myself. I use the green dop wax from Kingsley North but I get my best results when I keep just a very small amount of wax in the pot, about 1/8th inch. If I get the wax about 1/4th inch thick in the pot, I have trouble with it breaking loose from the stone. I'm also wondering if the red or black wax makes any difference. I don't know what the difference is in the different colored wax's. I know this doesn't help with your problem but I hope there is some concilation in knowing someone else is having the same problem.
Jim
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Post by victor1941 on May 15, 2022 18:28:36 GMT -5
Red melts at 160 degrees F and 170 for black.
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Post by Starguy on May 15, 2022 19:24:01 GMT -5
jawsjrA six inch sintered wheel is a pretty spendy venture. Have you contacted the supplier to ask for a replacement?
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Post by rmf on May 15, 2022 20:52:11 GMT -5
jawsjr I have had similar issues with the 80 grit wheels but there may be several issues. The first I do not think the commercial dop pots are worth crap. Most have one temperature and each type of dop wax has its own melting temp for best results. Also the temp of the rock must be heated to the correct temp for best adhesion. I have always ground on 80 Grit wheels by hand due to the vibration. Over the last few years I have purchased dops from minerken and I use those dops with cyanoacrylic (CA) glue to dop my stones. I remove the CA with acetone. The CA dopped stones can be ground on the 80 grit wheel with 90% staying attached. I tend to use dops with more surface area. I now only use dop wax as a last resort.
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Post by Peruano on May 16, 2022 6:13:01 GMT -5
A finger on the back of the stone (in addition to the dop stick) will help reduce that chatter or vibration contributing to the wax breaking off. Even though I'm holding the stone by the dop stick, at least one finger is bracing the stone. At least one of our members has reported having to push harder on sintered wheels (its just possible that your stone is skipping and needs a more aggressive pressure)
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