tame
off to a rocking start
Member since July 2023
Posts: 2
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Post by tame on Jul 12, 2023 7:53:21 GMT -5
Hi All,
Random question, 🤔 sorry if it seems silly.
Are there any benefits to using Reverse Osmosis (RO) water, compared to just tap water, during the rock tumbling process?
Thanks đź‘Ť
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Post by jasoninsd on Jul 12, 2023 10:18:33 GMT -5
Don't apologize for silly questions...we've all pondered such things! LOL I would think there's zero benefit. Once the rocks start breaking down, the slurry is no longer "pure"...and heaven knows what contaminants are on the rocks...heck, I collect a lot of mine from cow pastures...so one can use their imagination on the contaminants I'm dealing with! LOL
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Post by Starguy on Jul 12, 2023 10:56:35 GMT -5
tame Good question. I agree with Jason. Potable water is essentially pure water. There shouldn’t be any reaction in the tumbler. Any impurities in tap water would be minimal. I’ve often wondered if “hard” water had any effect on tumbling but I’ve never heard anyone claim it was an issue. The pH of the water could be an issue but if the water is meant for drinking it’s probably not far off neutral. Do you already have a tumbler? I rotary tumble. There are quite a few people here using vibratory tumblers too.
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Post by youp50 on Jul 12, 2023 12:00:29 GMT -5
Water I can tell you about...
A long time ago I was a young sailor aboard a nuclear powered submarine. I was a mechanical operator with a minor in primary and secondary water.
Pure water for us came from a resin bed demineralizer. Mechanically filtered out the big chunks and chemically removed the ions and replaced them with hydronium or hydroxyl ions. Pure water without the waste associated with an RO unit. Fast forward 45 years and we built a water treatment plant for the only primarily nickel mine in the US. Because of the location and the river the waste water went into, the EPA/DNR required an RO treatment system.
Water from a properly functioning RO system is not healthy for you to drink. Water is the great solvent, so great that pure water will attack a glass container. Water is designed to dissolve things, even glass. If all you were to drink was RO water, it would dissolve minerals from your body. If you shop household RO units you will find the newer models have a final calcium carbonate or similar 'filter' adding minerals to your drinking water.
(A side note, before the mine was producing the water treatment plant was operating, working out bugs etc. I observed the water tech taking a sample, respirator, face shield, rubber gloves, and tyvek suit. I had a connection with the factory tech, we both sailed subs, although he was on the pig boats and I was Nuke. I asked him what was with the water, I never had to wear half that safety gear when pulling a primary water sample. He informed me the gear was there to protect the sample from the tech! If you had a amalgam filling and breathed on the sample it would give a false positive for mercury.
So using RO water to tumble rocks is not ecologically sound, it takes energy to produce the water and upwards of 50% of water produced is wasted. Meaning for every gallon of good water, over a gallon of waste water is produced. And it will dissolve your rocks, not likely measureable, but it will attack the stones. There will be plenty of minerals in the slurry to sate the need to dissolve inherent in water.
If I had really hard water, and was concerned about affecting my stones finish, I would use rain water. A rare commodity in the SW I know. My tap water has a rather spendy water treatment system to remove iron and turbidity. It injects a flocculent when the pump runs and filters it out through a regenerating filter bed system. Or I could go down to The Gitch and bring some water home.
After a brief inspection of the slurry from the tumbling process.... wet works just fine.
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chris1956
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since July 2022
Posts: 1,258
Member is Online
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Post by chris1956 on Jul 12, 2023 13:07:16 GMT -5
Don't apologize for silly questions...we've all pondered such things! LOL I would think there's zero benefit. Once the rocks start breaking down, the slurry is no longer "pure"...and heaven knows what contaminants are on the rocks...heck, I collect a lot of mine from cow pastures...so one can use their imagination on the contaminants I'm dealing with! LOL What? You mean I should have sterilized those prairie agates you sent me? Seriously, on the subject of "tap" water. I got to wondering about the chlorine residual that should be in water from the tap. My guess is it is too small to worry about and more likely to affect the rubber in the tumbler than the rocks. But don't know for sure. Maybe that is part of the issue with deterioration of rubber barrels that people have mentioned but I doubt it. Besides, as soon as it hits the !@#! from Jason's prairie agates, the chlorine should be used up anyway.
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rockbrain
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2022
Posts: 2,539
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Post by rockbrain on Jul 12, 2023 22:03:52 GMT -5
youp50 I always learn something here. I found what you wrote fascinating. Thanks for your service even if it was as a squid!
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Post by vegasjames on Jul 13, 2023 0:43:33 GMT -5
A similar question recently came up on a rock tumbling board on Facebook. They were asking about adding vinegar to polish though for a better polish. This is actually related to the distilled water question. Both may provide a benefit when tumbling.
Minerals in water can dissociate just like the water reforming in to mineral (metal) hydroxides that react with silica dissolving it. Same principle as how water etches glass shower doors or cement. Adding vinegar to the mix neutralizes the hydroxides and reverse osmosis water removes the minerals that form the mineral hydroxides.
I use reverse osmosis water with a little soap to rinse mineral residue off my cabs when finished then rinse several more times with reverse osmosis water to remove the soap.
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Post by youp50 on Jul 13, 2023 3:34:47 GMT -5
Don't be concerned about drinking RO water.
The point was drinking only ro water would hurt you over time. Make coffee? No longer pure. The same with any other fluid you drink. Eat a balanced diet? Your body chemistry is fine, plenty of minerals.
Over time and only RO water is harmful to your body. Same to your stones, over time and only RO water... As posted it will rinse your stones well. If you wanted to take it to the next level, you could use non-ionic soap and then RO water to rinse.
Hey rockbrain; it's MISTER Squid to you grunts, and thanks for yours as well.
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Post by vegasjames on Jul 13, 2023 5:56:38 GMT -5
Don't be concerned about drinking RO water. The point was drinking only ro water would hurt you over time. Make coffee? No longer pure. The same with any other fluid you drink. Eat a balanced diet? Your body chemistry is fine, plenty of minerals. Over time and only RO water is harmful to your body. That is incorrect.
Both R/O water and distilled water are not good to drink unless minerals or something else to reduce solvency is added first.
As youp50 mentioned, actually pure water is highly corrosive and does eat glass. This is called ultrapure or type 1 water, which is so pure it cannot be tested for purity by parts per million. Instead it is tested by electrical resistance. When the resistance reaches 18megohm the water is considered ultrapure, and again is highly corrosive and you cannot drink it. My father was working for the State lab and they were producing 22megohm type 1 water.
Distilled and reverse osmosis water is not that pure and thus is not corrosive, but their purity does allow them to saturate and remove minerals and other nutrients from the body.
The more dangerous concern though involves the osmotic process, which in short refers to the principle of water moving from a higher level of purity to a lower level of purity in an attempt to reach equilibrium. Due the higher purity of distilled and reverse osmosis waters, these waters move very rapidly in to the bloodstream where they can rupture cells, raise blood pressure and dilute electrolytes throwing them off and increasing the risk of water intoxication that can swell the brain killing the person. In fact, it was just on the news yesterday about a boy who only had 6 bottles of water (bottled water is generally demineralized) and ended up in the hospital. This is also why when people drink distilled or reverse osmosis waters they urinate more frequently. Again, the sudden influx of water can cause a lot of problems to the body including cellular damage, and therefore the body responds by trying to eliminate the sudden influx of water as rapidly as possible to protect itself. Also why these types of water can lead to rebound dehydration.
These water should always have something added back to it to reduce the solvency and osmotic shift before ingesting for safety. Personally I add food grade diatomaceous earth to my reverse osmosis water for the silica as it converts in to small amounts of orthosilicic acid needed for the formation of connective tissues, mineralize bone, form cartilage, strengthen hair, nails, teeth, bones, tendons, ligaments, blood vessels, and to support a healthy nervous system. Occasionally, I will add a small amount of trace element salt to my water to reduce the solvency and reduce the osmotic shift.
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Post by Rockoonz on Jul 13, 2023 12:47:19 GMT -5
rockbrain youp50 thanks for your service. I was a Jarhead in a medical unit, so basically a Marine in the Navy. My dad, the navy WWII macchinist mate referred to me as the seagoing bellhop. We did have the best dress uniform. The water discussion is really helpful. We're pretty fortunate in that our AZ water at the house comes from deep wells and tested a lot better than most AZ water systems with no filter, so a big filter to deal with the "chunks" along with activated charcoal just in case is all we use for drinking water. In the NW we had open reservoirs so all water was treated with chlorine and ammonia, I wonder if it was a factor in the gassing off with some tumble batches. Soon after we return the shop with the new metal roof will get a gutter and the water from rain will be collected in barrels. Makes sense to use it for lapidary, perhaps we'll compare to the ground water.
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Wooferhound
Cave Dweller
Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,423
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Post by Wooferhound on Jul 13, 2023 15:44:28 GMT -5
I don't drink water Everything must have a Flavor
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iamchris
has rocks in the head
Member since June 2023
Posts: 675
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Post by iamchris on Jul 14, 2023 21:41:54 GMT -5
vegasjames what about alkaline remineralization cartridges? Are those sufficient to remove this risk or do they only lessen it?
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Post by vegasjames on Jul 16, 2023 0:04:00 GMT -5
vegasjames what about alkaline remineralization cartridges? Are those sufficient to remove this risk or do they only lessen it? If you mean the filters added to R/O systems to put minerals back in to the water, they will reduce the solvency of the water and reduce the osmotic shift, but depending on the minerals they could be creating more problems. If the minerals being used are oxides that form hydroxides, such as magnesium oxide, then I would avoid them. The mineral hydroxides are caustic and neutralize stomach acid, which can lead to a host of health issues. Same reason I avoid ionized alkaline water, which is made alkaline by the production of mineral (metal) hydroxides.
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Post by youp50 on Jul 16, 2023 11:36:28 GMT -5
On injesting diatomacius earth,
Learning every day, all I thought it was good for was filtration systems, insecticides, and packing the hollow center of a ship's propeller shaft. I did learn that food grade DE is 2% or less silica. I think I will pass on injesting any more of that than I already do.
I prefer animal collagen, with its potential for mad cow disease, in the form of Knox gelatin. I can see a very real improvement in my finger nails, in a very short time. My assumption is it will improve connective tissue as well. Hair? I am a guy that asks the barber to take a little off the sides, 'cause there ain't none on the top!
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Post by vegasjames on Jul 16, 2023 11:50:09 GMT -5
On injesting diatomacius earth, Learning every day, all I thought it was good for was filtration systems, insecticides, and packing the hollow center of a ship's propeller shaft. I did learn that food grade DE is 2% or less silica. I think I will pass on injesting any more of that than I already do. I prefer animal collagen, with its potential for mad cow disease, in the form of Knox gelatin. I can see a very real improvement in my finger nails, in a very short time. My assumption is it will improve connective tissue as well. Hair? I am a guy that asks the barber to take a little off the sides, 'cause there ain't none on the top! Actually, the composition of food grade diatomaceous earth is 80% silica, 10% metal oxides and 10% moisture.
The difference between food grade and what is use in pool filters is that the pool stuff is calcined creating crystalline quartz. And they add sodium carbonate to is as a pH buffer.
Silica is actually essential for health and even our existence. It not only aids in calcium absorption, it is also the component of bone responsible for the mineralization of bone. In addition, like amino acids and vitamin C , it is an important building block of collagen, elastin and chondroitin and helps the nervous system to function properly. The difference is that silica is a much more common deficiency than the amino acids or vitamin C since is it poorly absorbed to begin with and absorption declines with age due to declining stomach acid levels. This leads to problems such as osteoporosis, osteoarthritis, diverticulitis, emphysema, tendonitis, plaque formation in the arteries, wrinkles, etc.
Here is a copy of my write up on the topic:
The Importance of Silica in the Human Body
Silicon dioxide (SiO2), commonly known as silica, is one of the most common compounds on earth. The best known forms of silica are sand, quartz, and glass.
Silica is essential to both plants and animals for integrity of their tissues. Although, silica must first be converted in to another compound, known as orthosilicic acid (Si(OH)4), before it can be utilized in humans.
Orthosilicic acid is formed in nature as silica is dissolved by water. Though, silica is poorly dissolved by water generally. The presence of acid increases the conversion of silica in to orthosilicic acid. In the human body, this acid is provided by the stomach. When silica is ingested from water or plant sources, stomach acid (hydrochloric acid) aids in the conversion of the silica in to orthosilicic acid. As we age though, stomach acid levels decline, leading to declining silica levels in the tissues. Antacids and acid blockers also decrease tissue silica levels for the same reason.
Silica is essential for the formation of the proteins collagen and elastin. Collagen gives tissues strength, while elastin gives tissues elasticity. As levels of collagen and elastin decline, various disorders may occur. These include:
Osteoporosis- Silica is a piezoelectric material that generates electricity under pressure. When the collagen matrix is stressed, which applies pressure on the silica molecules, an electrical current is generated that electrodeposits minerals in to the collagen matrix. This allows bone to gain density. As a component of collagen and elastin, silica also aids in giving bone its flexibility, and therefore much of bone’s strength and shock absorption. Without silica, the bones would be unable to mineralize, and even if the bone could mineralize it would easily fracture like a piece of chalk. Silica aids in the absorption of calcium, and displaces the heavy metal lead, which is detrimental to bone. Although calcium is better known as an important nutrient for bones, silica is actually the most important nutrient for proper bone health and strength. Decreased silica levels leads to poor bone mineral deposition in bones, and loss of flexibility and shock absorption, increasing the risk of fracture.
Osteoarthritis (joint inflammation)- Silica is essential for the formation and strength of cartilage. Silica's role is in both the formation of collagen in cartilage and through the repetitive linking of glucosamine molecules to form chondroitin in cartilage. Declining levels of silica lead to softening of cartilage, and increased risk of damage or deterioration to spinal discs and joint cartilage. In addition, silica has mild natural anti-inflammatory properties, which further helps prevent cartilage degradation.
Emphysema- Loss of elastin in the lung alveoli prevents normal expansion and contraction of the alveoli.
Diverticulitis (inflammation of the diverticuli)- Loss of elastin in the intestinal diverticuli prevents these pouches from contracting back to their normal state. The anti-inflammatory effects of silica help reduce pain of diverticulitis.
Tendonitis (inflammation of the tendons)- Loss of collagen and elastin in tendons increases the risk of damage to tendons from overstretching and tearing. Silica can help reduce inflammation of the tendons.
Heart disease- It is a common misconception that high cholesterol is the cause of heart disease. Actually, cholesterol levels are irrelevant to the risk of heart disease. Cholesterol is a healing agent for the body, and therefore deposits in areas of injury. Therefore, cholesterol does not deposit on arterial walls unless there is injury to the wall. When the arterial wall is damaged, there will be resulting inflammation. In response, cholesterol deposits over the injured area. This is why high blood pressure, diabetes, smoking, bacterial infection, and high homocysteine levels are all considered true risk factors for heart disease. Each of these factors can damage arterial walls and lead to arterial inflammation. Loss of collagen increases the risk of damage to arterial walls. In addition, silica helps prevent arterial inflammation. Loss of collagen and elastin in arterial walls reduces the wall strength, increasing the risk of aneurysm. Aneurysms increase the risk of stroke, or death from internal bleeding.
Wrinkles- Loss of elastin in the skin results in wrinkles. Normal, healthy skin is elastic and rebounds when stretched. Declining silica levels reduce elastin levels in the skin, which causes the skin to stretch then sag leading to the formation of wrinkles.
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Post by Rockoonz on Jul 16, 2023 20:20:02 GMT -5
Interesting... From water to earth, it's all as clear as mud... vegasjames is it DE vs gelatin or is it both? I can definitely tell you that adding gelatin to my diet has about 95% eliminated the Osteoarthritis in my thumbs that made gripping a dop stick quite painful. If an additional dose of silica rich goodness could provide additional benefit what would it look like? In my Amazon search I noticed there is also a veterinary grade, thoughts on that? Taco will be 15 this year and so far he's healthy, but the usual kidney and heart function issues with old dogs are a concern.
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Post by vegasjames on Jul 16, 2023 21:49:58 GMT -5
Interesting... From water to earth, it's all as clear as mud... vegasjames is it DE vs gelatin or is it both? I can definitely tell you that adding gelatin to my diet has about 95% eliminated the Osteoarthritis in my thumbs that made gripping a dop stick quite painful. If an additional dose of silica rich goodness could provide additional benefit what would it look like? In my Amazon search I noticed there is also a veterinary grade, thoughts on that? Taco will be 15 this year and so far he's healthy, but the usual kidney and heart function issues with old dogs are a concern. Gelatin is a structural protein and thus will contain some silica. Structural proteins such as collagen and elastin are composed of the amino acids proline, hydroxyproline, lysine, hydroxylysine, glycine, vitamin C and silica. Traces of copper and zinc are used as catalysts for the formation.
Again though, silica levels decline with age as stomach acid decreases as the presence of an acid such a stomach acid assists in the conversion of silica in to the bioavailable and functional form orthosilicic acid. This leads to a lot of the issues we associate with aging such as osteoporosis, which is not a loss of minerals as most people believe, but rather a loss of collagen matrix reducing mineral binding sites. A loss of bone minerals are the conditions osteopenia and osteomalacia, not osteoporosis. One of the reasons that osteoporosis drugs do not treat osteoporosis and actually increase the risk of bone fractures since they do not address the collagen loss. They simply create rotten bone and over plaster minerals over the rotten bone reducing shock absorption.
Gelatin will also become harder to digest as you age as stomach acid levels decline since stomach acid is needed to activate protein digestive enzymes, particularly pepsin, to break down proteins like gelatin in to peptides, which then get broken down by other proteases such as trypsin, chymotrypsin, and carboxypeptidases A and B.
The decrease in ability to break down structural proteins as we age will also further decrease silica. To get around this problem I add food grade diatomaceous earth (DE) to my water. I add a spoonful to a gallon of water and allow it to settle out first. Drinking the DE without settling out does not hurt anything, but it can taste muddy and is a bit gritty. This is why DE is used in toothpaste as a mild abrasive. Once settled out, you will not even taste it. Initial settling takes several days, but it will settle out rapidly after that. After settling, the water is drunk as your normal water and as the water level drops in the container, more water is added to the container and allowed to settle out again A spoonful of the DE will generally last a couple of years depending on how much water you go through, but I generally dump it all out after 6 months or so and start all over. Or I just a tiny amount of the DE to my water bottles.
The reason I came up with this process is due to the poor absorption of the silica. This means taking a silica supplement such as silica capsules means you will only absorb a tiny amount of that silica and the rest will just pass through the system. If only taking the silica 1-3 times daily this means little silica actually gets in to the body. By adding it to the water ahead of time, the dissolving of the silica in the water forms orthosilcic acid. And by using the DE water as your normal drinking water, this means you are absorbing traces of the orthosilcic acid throughout the day leading to higher silica levels in the body for more benefit including stronger bones, strengthening tendons, ligaments, hair, nails, teeth and blood vessels, building cartilage, preventing plaque formation in the arteries and reducing the risk of aneurysm, strengthening the kidneys, etc.
Orthosilicic acid is also a minor anti-inflammatory, which is why it helps prevent arterial plaque formation and helps with arthritis.
DE also lowers cholesterol according to various studies, but requires higher doses that a person would get with my concept.
Veterinary grade is going to be the same as food grade. I add DE to Jax's water as well, and I give her a variety of herbs in her diet. I fix each of her meals and she never eats the same thing twice a day. Each meal I change things up with the meat added to her meals, or the herbs so she does not get bored of her food and to make sure she gets more than adequate nutrition.
Jax does like to eat cat tootsie rolls, which worries me about parasites, so I will add a spoonful of DE powder to her meals once in while at is destroys intestinal parasites and eggs.
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