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Post by Rockoonz on Aug 14, 2023 13:17:10 GMT -5
It was national forest land before being closed, so it was "in reserve" and only available for use with proper permits and reclamation. Question then; if that counts as theft, who was it stolen from? Us If you are, or wish to be a "cave dweller" and participate in more political discussion, feel free to start a thread there and tag me for a deeper discussion, but for the sake of keeping this one public, I won't be getting into that in this thread.
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iamchris
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Post by iamchris on Aug 14, 2023 13:54:42 GMT -5
Question then; if that counts as theft, who was it stolen from? Us If you are, or wish to be a "cave dweller" and participate in more political discussion, feel free to start a thread there and tag me for a deeper discussion, but for the sake of keeping this one public, I won't be getting into that in this thread. This thread was political as soon as the title was done being typed.
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Post by rockjunquie on Aug 14, 2023 15:40:55 GMT -5
Us If you are, or wish to be a "cave dweller" and participate in more political discussion, feel free to start a thread there and tag me for a deeper discussion, but for the sake of keeping this one public, I won't be getting into that in this thread. This thread was political as soon as the title was done being typed. I disagree. I think ALL Americans can have an opinion on this. I think we can all agree that land is being taken FROM the people- political or not. Plenty of Republicans have done it, too. It's not really a party issue. AND, I like to think we can be adults about it. Yes, that was my opinion. But, reasonable, I think.
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iamchris
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Post by iamchris on Aug 15, 2023 8:48:51 GMT -5
This thread was political as soon as the title was done being typed. I disagree. I think ALL Americans can have an opinion on this. I think we can all agree that land is being taken FROM the people- political or not. Plenty of Republicans have done it, too. It's not really a party issue. AND, I like to think we can be adults about it. Yes, that was my opinion. But, reasonable, I think. Maybe I'm in the wrong here as the content of the thread has very largely remained apolitical, but IMO while not explicit, the title is very politically charged. I think it would be hard to argue that there weren't better options for a title to encourage factual arguments rather than ones based on political motives. Anyway, I'll take a contrarian opinion that may be a bit hypocritical given that I enjoy this hobby, but I'll say that I think the preservation of important lands are more important than the extraction of pretty rocks. There are many different forms of the collective "us," and the group that this land belonged to never changed. It was never stolen, only designated for a slightly different use. It never belonged to rockhounds, so it was never stolen from rockhounds. Yes, it harms the very tiny collective "us" that participate in this hobby, but it's preserved for many more. I also think there's some pretty significant irony in people complaining that it's formerly tribal lands that are being stolen from them.
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Post by rockjunquie on Aug 15, 2023 10:06:09 GMT -5
I disagree. I think ALL Americans can have an opinion on this. I think we can all agree that land is being taken FROM the people- political or not. Plenty of Republicans have done it, too. It's not really a party issue. AND, I like to think we can be adults about it. Yes, that was my opinion. But, reasonable, I think. Maybe I'm in the wrong here as the content of the thread has very largely remained apolitical, but IMO while not explicit, the title is very politically charged. I think it would be hard to argue that there weren't better options for a title to encourage factual arguments rather than ones based on political motives. Anyway, I'll take a contrarian opinion that may be a bit hypocritical given that I enjoy this hobby, but I'll say that I think the preservation of important lands are more important than the extraction of pretty rocks. There are many different forms of the collective "us," and the group that this land belonged to never changed. It was never stolen, only designated for a slightly different use. It never belonged to rockhounds, so it was never stolen from rockhounds. Yes, it harms the very tiny collective "us" that participate in this hobby, but it's preserved for many more. I also think there's some pretty significant irony in people complaining that it's formerly tribal lands that are being stolen from them. I get what you're saying about political talk. But, I didn't read the title as political.
In the big scheme of things, I'm not worried about a few rockhounds being inconvenienced and angered. That land was for ALL of us for whatever reason would be legal. It was The People's Land.
As I said, I AM sympathetic to the Native American's claims. I don't have a problem with historic lands being returned to them in this. However, taking any more than that is not justified. The federal government is taking land set aside for US and declaring it hands off. By US, I don't mean just rock hounds- although we are, maybe, more affected as a group. The bottom line is now the Feds can do what they want with the land and we can't.
I don't have as strong feelings about it or know as much about it as many Westerners. I'm just an observer. Odds are good that I'll never get back out that way. It's just a damned shame to me, is all.
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Post by hummingbirdstones on Aug 15, 2023 10:59:38 GMT -5
I disagree. I think ALL Americans can have an opinion on this. I think we can all agree that land is being taken FROM the people- political or not. Plenty of Republicans have done it, too. It's not really a party issue. AND, I like to think we can be adults about it. Yes, that was my opinion. But, reasonable, I think. Maybe I'm in the wrong here as the content of the thread has very largely remained apolitical, but IMO while not explicit, the title is very politically charged. I think it would be hard to argue that there weren't better options for a title to encourage factual arguments rather than ones based on political motives. Anyway, I'll take a contrarian opinion that may be a bit hypocritical given that I enjoy this hobby, but I'll say that I think the preservation of important lands are more important than the extraction of pretty rocks. There are many different forms of the collective "us," and the group that this land belonged to never changed. It was never stolen, only designated for a slightly different use. It never belonged to rockhounds, so it was never stolen from rockhounds. Yes, it harms the very tiny collective "us" that participate in this hobby, but it's preserved for many more. I also think there's some pretty significant irony in people complaining that it's formerly tribal lands that are being stolen from them. It does affect people other than rockhounds. One example are the ranchers in the area who have grazing leases with the government on that land. Here is just one of those ranchers. I tried to figure out how to embed this video, but it didn't work, so here's the link to it: www.foxbusiness.com/politics/utah-rancher-biden-admin-shoving-new-national-monument-down-our-throatsIf this grazing lease is revoked, they have no where to graze the amount of cattle they have. Less cattle to market means less available product for us and even higher beef prices than the ridiculous price it is now. I agree with Tela about the rockhound part (although that sucks, too). But the land belongs to all of us and one person should not be able to dictate that it is off limits now to anyone other than the feds. The monument also encompasses some of Arizona State land and all Arizona State land is earmarked for schools and education should it be sold if it is needed. Taking this land away from Arizona's jurisdiction means that the feds are taking money out Arizona's pockets. Arizona residents did not have a say in this decision. Biden's main reason in doing this is "climate change". Considering the Grand Canyon had 311,985,998 visitors last year, perhaps he should just close the National Park. Can you imagine the carbon footprint of that many people traveling to the Grand Canyon? I'm being facetious, but this was simply not well thought out.
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Post by Rockoonz on Aug 15, 2023 11:38:40 GMT -5
iamchris in the sense that we are discussing what politicians have done I suppose it is political no matter how it is worded, so you are right in that sense. The discussion of the philosophical roots of decisions like this is the thing that we try to reserve for the area of the forum for members only, where we can choose to stay away if topics like that are off limits for us personally. Again, I extend the invitation to go deeper there, but totally respect if that is not something you want to spend your time doing, we all have to think about things like that.
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iamchris
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Post by iamchris on Aug 15, 2023 12:58:33 GMT -5
Rockoonz I'm not sure if I know which area you're talking about. I only see a general Off-Topic which is meant for non-polarizing issues. Perhaps it's because of the newness of my account that it's not yet visible to me. I see nothing related to the Cave Dweller reference you spoke of earlier.
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Post by rockjunquie on Aug 15, 2023 13:25:43 GMT -5
Rockoonz I'm not sure if I know which area you're talking about. I only see a general Off-Topic which is meant for non-polarizing issues. Perhaps it's because of the newness of my account that it's not yet visible to me. I see nothing related to the Cave Dweller reference you spoke of earlier. Chris, you need 250 posts to get into the Cave. If you enjoy political banter without getting butthurt or hateful then ask Tommy if he will up your post count so you can join. You can quit anytime you like.
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Post by vegasjames on Aug 15, 2023 20:30:08 GMT -5
They have created 2 National Monuments here in Southern Nevada in just the last couple of years with the 3rd in the process right now fro NE Nevada. And the military is taking over a large chunk of land up in Northern Nevada around Fallon including Dead Camel Mountains.
They are also trying to take over more prime land in Southern California for another monument or preserve. I posted about it not that long ago, but there did not appear to be much interest in the fact that so much land was being taken so rapidly, and all prime mining and rock hounding areas.
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Post by parfive on Aug 15, 2023 21:24:51 GMT -5
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Post by hummingbirdstones on Aug 15, 2023 23:37:41 GMT -5
They have created 2 National Monuments here in Southern Nevada in just the last couple of years with the 3rd in the process right now fro NE Nevada. And the military is taking over a large chunk of land up in Northern Nevada around Fallon including Dead Camel Mountains. They are also trying to take over more prime land in Southern California for another monument or preserve. I posted about it not that long ago, but there did not appear to be much interest in the fact that so much land was being taken so rapidly, and all prime mining and rock hounding areas. I remember seeing that post and reading an article about it. I think was too much going on at the time with some forum members and everyone was focusing on that.
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Post by rockjunquie on Aug 16, 2023 6:42:06 GMT -5
Very informative, thank you.
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Tommy
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Post by Tommy on Aug 16, 2023 8:17:05 GMT -5
I try to stay out of political discussions - and yes I see this as a political discussion with a political sounding title but I think it merits staying on the main board because A) it does directly affect rockhounds and this is a rock forum, and B) it's not (yet) a debate about which side of the political aisle does it better or worse than the other. They ALL do it so it's more of a question of do we the people support this practice of designating wilderness areas for 'protections' or not. Further do we trust the government as a whole to be fair and equitable and truthful (follow the money) with the land use - in particular to those who live and make their livings there whether it be with tribal traditions, or cattle, mining, energy, etc.
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herb
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Post by herb on Aug 16, 2023 10:42:28 GMT -5
It does affect people other than rockhounds. One example are the ranchers in the area who have grazing leases with the government on that land. Here is just one of those ranchers. I tried to figure out how to embed this video, but it didn't work, so here's the link to it: www.foxbusiness.com/politics/utah-rancher-biden-admin-shoving-new-national-monument-down-our-throatsIf this grazing lease is revoked, they have no where to graze the amount of cattle they have. Less cattle to market means less available product for us and even higher beef prices than the ridiculous price it is now. From the quick reading I did, becoming a national monument usually doesnt mean grazing is automatically prohibited. It usually is only prohibited if the grazing damages or endangers what ever the monument is supposed to protect
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Post by Lazy Perfectionist on Aug 16, 2023 10:54:35 GMT -5
I have to admit that although the ability to hunt rocks on public land is very cool, I also feel guilty removing treasures for my own personal enjoyment. And I just pick up surface stuff; it's disheartening seeing the landscape littered with big holes where people have been digging. It's also sad when a special deposit has been totally stripped. So I guess I'm ok with not everything being free for the taking so as to leave things for future generations. Perhaps a permit system would be a solution.
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Post by Rockoonz on Aug 16, 2023 13:40:45 GMT -5
I have to admit that although the ability to hunt rocks on public land is very cool, I also feel guilty removing treasures for my own personal enjoyment. And I just pick up surface stuff; it's disheartening seeing the landscape littered with big holes where people have been digging. It's also sad when a special deposit has been totally stripped. So I guess I'm ok with not everything being free for the taking so as to leave things for future generations. Perhaps a permit system would be a solution. Yes, not filling holes and packing trash out has become an issue, especially in the social media crowd. There is a system for claims, and most FS and BLM managers apply the old petrified wood weight limits to all rock taken. The club we belong to has a 20 lb limit on all field trips, can't be enforced but they can say no more trips for you.
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Post by vegasjames on Aug 16, 2023 17:49:14 GMT -5
I have to admit that although the ability to hunt rocks on public land is very cool, I also feel guilty removing treasures for my own personal enjoyment. And I just pick up surface stuff; it's disheartening seeing the landscape littered with big holes where people have been digging. It's also sad when a special deposit has been totally stripped. So I guess I'm ok with not everything being free for the taking so as to leave things for future generations. Perhaps a permit system would be a solution. It is all perspective. What is worse, landscape littered with holes or as pointed out in the Eagles song Last Frontier "putting up a bunch of ugly houses"? How many of these beautiful rocks have been buried under buildings, or roads or been crushed to make concrete or t make the metals for our houses and cars,.......?
To me, bringing home these stones is a way to enjoy the beauty of nature that is rapidly disappearing.
And humans have always picked up stones. We used them to make tools, for ship ballast, for making sculptures, pipes and jewelry, to make house windows in the old days, to produce metals that if we did not we not be where we are today, etc.
I have more of an issue with things like the hypocrisy of things like they made it illegal to pick up artifacts over 50 years old that include old bottles and even the aluminum pull tabs from cans from the 70s, which is trash, but modern day grave robbing of old and ancient Native American burial sites is allowed to be permitted.
I do agree about the stripping, seen this happen may times. There are even people who will join rock boards or join rock clubs for the sole purpose of finding good locations to go clean out for profit. Has happened in our club, and I have had it happen to me when I led a trip of people to a remote location that included rare orange chalcedony, and purple chalcedony. Came back about a month later and all the orange, and a good chunk of the purple had been removed.
Although, this is not much different than mining, which I have mixed feelings on as there is a lot of nonsense that goes on here. For example, an individual can only have something like 3 claims max. Corporations though will go lay down claim markers over vast areas covering dozens if not hundreds of claims including land they are not even working just to block others from having access. This is happening about 100 miles North of here where the gold mining companies have laid claim to thousands of acres, and I only see one small operation going on. There are bug test holes dug all over the place still open, but apparently nothing found, but still under claim.
As for trash, I have not seen this problem with rock hounders. In fact, most the rock hounders I know are like me and pick up trash we find in the desert, especially plastic and balloons that animals such as tortoises may mistake for flowers and eat. Most the trash I see are balloons that were released, beer cans and bottles from people out partying, shooters and people out fishing are the worst.
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