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Post by Roller on Dec 22, 2010 23:09:51 GMT -5
well i was just wondering ... just how easy is it when i get a nice new slab saw with auto feed... I mean is it as easy as set it and go away for a few hours ? and then come back and wallah ???one of my pet peeves is crooked slabs ... What saw will definately not give me those And what saw do you use ???and why should I buy or not buy that one ?? My main concerns are 1-straight slabs every time ... 2-cleanliness , 3-auto feed , 4+5 quality and price .. size doesnt matter .... lol but i hear once ur bigger than 10" you start having blade problems ... 10" to 14" i would think is good for me ..
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Post by jakesrocks on Dec 22, 2010 23:24:20 GMT -5
Any saw with power feed and cross feed will serve you well. You may have to learn about using wooden wedges to secure rocks in the vise. I don't care how good or expensive your saw is, if that rock moves in the vise, one of two things will happen, You'll either get a crooked cut if your lucky, or you'll ruin a blade. I always run my belt just a little bit loose. If the rock shifts, the blade will stop, and the belt will slip. I saved a brand new 16" blade by doing this.
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Post by deb193redux on Dec 22, 2010 23:27:26 GMT -5
I recommend you stay within earshot till you get confortable with the vise and have a good feel for when things won't slip.
When the garage is cold, I do go in for 20 minutes while the slab cuts, and I sometimes rely on the auto shotoff - but at least once that failed on me a few years ago and it ruined the arbor.
Unless you are burning through bucks, I recommend watching craigslist or ebay or catmandew ... etc for a used saw. Start with a 10". Blades are cheaper and mistakes do not cost as much. You can always sell it if you want bigger later.
You can likely get a nice used one in the $350 to $450 range, a little less if it is gunked up and/or does not have a blade. A new one with blade, motor, hood, etc will run $900 to $1300.
If you need a good hood and plan indoor use and value clean, and have the funds, then new is defensible in 10" - but I would go used if you go 14" or 16"
goodluck
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snuffy
Cave Dweller
Member since May 2009
Posts: 4,319
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Post by snuffy on Dec 22, 2010 23:31:50 GMT -5
Roller,it is pretty easy. Ilove cutting slabs,cut everyday usually.I usually go out every 15-20 minutes and move my vises over for another cut.4-6 slabs per hour.I've got an HP 14 with a 16 in blade on it and an HP18 saw.Blades cut excellent,no saw marks.Ayear and a half ago I bought the hp14 with a used blade on it.Still cutting away with it,have cut many a slab with it.For a good all around,a 14 incher would be my recommendation,an HP if you can find one.
snuffy
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Post by Roller on Dec 22, 2010 23:44:33 GMT -5
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Post by johnjsgems on Dec 22, 2010 23:50:57 GMT -5
Barranca's 14" is based on Star Diamond, not HP. Their bigger saws use the HP belt drive system. Still a nice saw. I would start with a 10".
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Post by jakesrocks on Dec 22, 2010 23:57:38 GMT -5
Diamond Pacific bought all of Highland Park's patterns several years back. I think they either resold some of the patterns to Barranca, or else the 2 companies are working together. A buddy bought a 14" Lortone a few months back, and has been awfully happy with it. Don
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Post by Roller on Dec 23, 2010 0:05:30 GMT -5
why start at 10"?
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,471
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Post by Sabre52 on Dec 23, 2010 0:08:01 GMT -5
*LOL* Still chuckling about the clean requirement. Even a good hood will not prevent a rock saw from being a dirty mess after a few cuts. Definitely avoid drop saws which are the messiest of the lot. I used to have a 14" drop saw and it made huge messes even with a hood I built for it.
I'm with Daniel on the 10" saws. I find mine way less cranky than the 14" or 20" I've had in the past, they need less oil and you can buy 3 or four 10" blades for the price of one 20". Also most 10's have the blade set up so it can't get out of alignment which is a giant problem with large saws. Also, if you can get a ten inch with a big motor, it'll cut like gangbusters and won't bind in the cut as much as large saws or dish as easily. With my old 10" beacon star I usually use every bit of diamond ( been using a MK Criterian for two years of frequent cutting now). With the big blades they were usually dished and crappy after about 150 hours or so, dead with lots of diamond left.
Like Jake said, a good vice is very important and for me, the simpler ones are best. Mine has just two screw down wing nuts with two wood blocks on metal jaws holding the rocks. I've had fancier ones with all kinds of weird handles and jaws and most broke and were hard to fix. Simple is good and easy to fix.
Power feed wise, either get a slow fixed rate or one where you can adjust the speed. Fast fixed rates will bind, screw up blades etc. when the blade gets dull and you cut hard material.
Don't know too much about brands. My big 20" was an ancient Highland Park and a giant pain in the ass. My 10" is an old Beacon Star that has been serving me well for about 15 years with zero problems. I only had one Lortone saw ( the 14" drop saw) and hated it so much I physically took it out in my driveway and broke it up with a sledge hammer. I personally feel Lortone products, period, are inferior now days. If I get a new saw, it will be a Covington or a new Barranca, but I may try to get one without a motor so I can put a larger motor on it. Barrancas come with pretty oversized motors though so it's probably not necessary in that case. More power good! I think both these brands are good values. Looked at the Barranca 14 at the Austin show and it looks to be a real good rig if you want a 14". IMHO any saw should be watched unless you like screwing up blades though I mainly stay in earshot and check it often. First time you leave a big saw to it's own resources for long, that will probably be the time a rock breaks or comes loose in the vice......Mel
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Post by Roller on Dec 23, 2010 0:27:14 GMT -5
well thats a mouthful thanks !!!! thats the spirit Iam looking for ... I am not exactly ready to buy today but Iam warming up to it soon ... very soon .. so anyone with any thoughts at all please do tell ... Thanks everyone for the replies ... I just hate looking at the big rocks on my shelf I cant cut ...and yes they are way too pretty to break into smaller pieces ... I did notice the hp14 has only a 5" by 5 " capability is that correct ? that should do it but what can a 10" do ?4" by 4"
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Post by Roller on Dec 23, 2010 0:35:00 GMT -5
also how messy is this something a rag can whipe up after each time ... or do i need a bucket and mop?
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Post by deb193redux on Dec 23, 2010 0:49:46 GMT -5
its not the rag or the mop, but the degreaser that will make the difference
you can get upto 1/3 the blade so more like 3" cut mabey 3x5 on a 10" but it works better for slabs about 2.5"x 4" if the rock is real hard.
you spoke about using htis in an apartment. none of these are recommended for indoor use - especially with oul. Maybe a basement or storeroom, but it will throw oil mist while cutting, and perodically when you need to clean it out, thre will be a mess everywhere until you get down a good routine, and then there will still be some mess.
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Post by Roller on Dec 23, 2010 1:22:37 GMT -5
im thinking basement ... but shared basement /laundry room /bike room .. i dont wanna piss of the neighbors ...lol
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Post by catmandewe on Dec 23, 2010 1:45:26 GMT -5
All oil saws make a mess, in a shared basement it might make the floor slippery with oil, depends on how good your hood is. Sometimes just the mist in the air will make the floor slippery. If you can put a piece of throw away carpet or some cardboard under the saw it will help soak up some of the oil that will invariably find it's way out. I keep a box of rags next to my saws and use one until it is too bad, then it goes in the fireplace. 10" would be a good starting saw, blades are cheap and you can't try to run too much rock through them and dish the blades as easy. If you could find a 12" that would be good too, but they are hard to find, no one wants to let go of them. If you have to go bigger, I wouldn't go any larger than a 16" for your first saw. You will more than likely be buying two or three blades before you get the hang of it, and after 16" they really start to increase in price exponentially. Of course you could buy a larger saw and run smaller blades in it until you get it figured out, but then you need more oil in the reservoir.
I run mine unsupervised all the time, but I am usually fixing something that went wrong that would not have happened if I had been there.
Anyways, good luck with whatever you get. Keep us posted..............Tony
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Post by Roller on Dec 23, 2010 1:55:42 GMT -5
I really like the way you put that in perspective Tony .... thanks!!! especially the buy the bigger box and start with a smaller blade!!!!! great words .... anyone else ?.
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Post by johnjsgems on Dec 23, 2010 9:53:18 GMT -5
A 10" saw will cut 3.5" tall max which is about fist size. You can also (on most) swing the vise out of the way and use as a trim saw. With a 10" you can get by with water as long as you drain after. ten inch blades will be about 1/2 as thick as a 14" or 16" so less material loss. Even if you buy a larger saw you will find you use the 10" a lot. And Don, as far as the whole DP, HP, BD thing here is the lesson. Star Diamond made everyone's blades until 1998 when they went bust. Owner of MK bought them and had his son run it under the Barranca name. 2007 or 2008 BD was merged into MK as the lapidary division. The old Star Diamond blade furnace went to Mexico ending US blade manufacture (the Mexican company use it for heat treating something else). Before all that HP went bankrupt and MK bought them out. MK sold it to Contempo Lapidary (except the HP name). They sold it to DP. MK kept the trademarked HP name until last year at which time the guy in Texas picked up the trade mark and started making the Chinese HP's. When BD redesigned their saws they incorporated the HP drive system and renamed "Highland Precision" with a large HP. The only connection between BD and DP is DP buys BD blades and wet polishers. Here ends the lesson.
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Post by jakesrocks on Dec 23, 2010 10:16:00 GMT -5
Thanks for the lesson John. I've always been a little unclear of all of the connections. But where does DP's flat laps fit into the picture ? Their larger laps are exactly the same as the old HP laps, with the exception that DP added expanded metal guards around the bottom.
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Post by Hard Rock Cafe on Dec 23, 2010 11:04:01 GMT -5
One more thing to keep in mind with the saw: a 10" will be quieter than a larger saw. This should keep your neighbors happier.
Even with a good hood, you will have oil mist if you use oil. You can use water with the 10" saw, with soluble oil/rust inhibitor and avoid the whole mist problem.
I have a Star Diamond 10" with auto feed and I love it. I definitely would not leave it alone when you're learning to cut. You can leave it alone after you have a few rocks slip and gain experience. Mine cuts at about 5 minutes/inch, so 20 minutes on a 4 inch rock.
Regarding the noise: I can't hear my 10" saw when my 18" saw is running.
Hope that helps! Chuck
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Post by deb193redux on Dec 23, 2010 14:16:49 GMT -5
Yes, I just had my 12" bind up. I was in the next room and heard it, but still a mess by the time I got there. The thermal shut-off on the motor did not kick in, and the belt started sherreing rubber and filled the garage with black rubbery smoke.
I decided to wait an hour of so before I go out an check if the motor is fried andif the blade got dished or if maybe the arbor took some damage.
Still, I I was standing right next to it, I am not sure how much damage I could have avoded because it happened quickly. Not sure if the vise was cranked too close to the blade of if the rock slipped just a hair. Stuff happens.
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,471
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Post by Sabre52 on Dec 23, 2010 15:53:25 GMT -5
Yeah, actually 10" saws cut pretty good sized slabs. As Daniel has said, 3" deep is pretty good and the length is somewhat controlled by the size of your vice and how much space you have in front of the blade. 4 1/2 to five inches is about right for my rig. As far as the big saws go, the amount of drag you get on your blade and the amount of binding you'll see is really determined by the amount of blade you have interfacing with the stone. I know, most folks have that big nine inch thick boulder they just want to slab without breaking it and think the big saws will just slab nine inch slabs all day long. Not so. Believe me, that nine inch rock, when the blade gets into it will have eleven or twelve inches of rock against the blade at mid cut and you will not slab more than a few cuts out of a good hard agate boulder that sized without uh oh, you're blade turning up dull and starting to bind in the cut. There's a good reason why you don't see a ton of 9 X 9 agate slabs at shows. It don't pay to cut slices that big. Way more life from even a big blade if you stick with smaller rocks and for cabbing a 3" by 5" slab is just dandy. Also, most boulders can be carefully broken into smaller pieces for the ten inch and and what chips you make can go into the tumbler. I know that when I go to a rock yard sale, I just pick out pieces that will vice up well and fit the ten inch saw. Since fist sized rocks seem common, this is an easy way to go and way more cost effective. I even prefer to slab smaller stuff sometimes as one cab wonders are easy to preform and mostly I'll sacrifice most of a larger slab to trim out just the right pattern for the cab anyway, with the scraps going to the tumbler......Mel
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