bgast1
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Post by bgast1 on Jan 5, 2011 22:30:29 GMT -5
I am curious about how fossils form. When something dies it generally decays within a very short time. How then do we have fossils if they did not form over a very short time instead millions or billions of years?
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Post by jakesrocks on Jan 5, 2011 23:32:43 GMT -5
Usually the soft tissue rots away. Fossils will only form if they are buried under tons of sediment or volcanic ash. This protects the bones from oxygen and weathering that would happen if the bones were exposed. On rare occasions soft tissue is also fossilized.
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Jan 6, 2011 0:19:48 GMT -5
Yep, there are different classes of fossils too. Some fossils like shells are sometimes still the original calcium based shell material. In some the calcium or wood has been dissolved and mineralized ((replaced with silica) as in fine dino bone, silicified petrified wood, opalized wood etc. Some are endocasts or steinkerns where sediment similar to concrete has filled a cast left by an animal that has dissolved away and some are merely impressions left where the whole animal has dissolved. Some are trace fossils like dino tracks, trilobite trails or worm tubes and some are carbonized where a plant has burnt up leaving just a coal- like fossil. And all are pretty dern neat!. Time lines are determined by either the rate radioactive carbon in organic materials decays or the rate things are mineralized or by how long it takes rocks of various hardnesses to weather and the study of stratification. Scientists have "faith" in their many and varied methods and their science of paleontology. But then again, maybe God put fossils in rocks to mess with scientists who think they know so much. Cause lets face it, until someone makes a time machine, it's all really just guesswork *L*.....Mel
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chromenut
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Post by chromenut on Jan 6, 2011 3:08:08 GMT -5
I'm going to try to find a movie I just recently watched that had a great and simple explanation on the formation of fossils. Would be something maybe of interest.
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Post by texaswoodie on Jan 6, 2011 8:01:14 GMT -5
Yep, there are different classes of fossils too. Some fossils like shells are sometimes still the original calcium based shell material. In some the calcium or wood has been dissolved and mineralized ((replaced with silica) as in fine dino bone, silicified petrified wood, opalized wood etc. Some are endocasts or steinkerns where sediment similar to concrete has filled a cast left by an animal that has dissolved away and some are merely impressions left where the whole animal has dissolved. Some are trace fossils like dino tracks, trilobite trails or worm tubes and some are carbonized where a plant has burnt up leaving just a coal- like fossil. And all are pretty dern neat!. Time lines are determined by either the rate radioactive carbon in organic materials decays or the rate things are mineralized or by how long it takes rocks of various hardnesses to weather and the study of stratification. Scientists have "faith" in their many and varied methods and their science of paleontology. But then again, maybe God put fossils in rocks to mess with scientists who think they know so much. Cause lets face it, until someone makes a time machine, it's all really just guesswork *L*.....Mel This is probably the wrong place and time to post this but I've never been known for good timing. Mel, you are the strangest scientist I've ever known. You never talk down to us peons and try to keep the huge science type words to a minimum. You never flaunt your intelligence or wear it as a crown of superiority. You have a lot of common sense which is rare with highly educated people. I have the utmost respect for you. I mentioned the fact on a fossil board that I wished scientist would present their theories as what they are......educated guesses, not fact. Man, the intellectuals came unglued and gave me heck for being so stupid as to think scientist did not know exactly what happened and when it happened. I'm privileged to call you my rock buddy Mel. Curt
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Post by johnjsgems on Jan 6, 2011 9:32:17 GMT -5
What Curt said. That was the briefest and most complete fossil explanation I've heard. Bob, talking only mineral replacement fossils like pet wood, walk through any forest and you will see wood rotting everywhere. For it to become a fossil it would have to be buried under silica rich mud preserving the wood. I think wood is found in areas where it washed down in storms/floods and was buried under the mud. As each cell rots away, the mud replaces it preserving the growth rings, knots, etc. Same with bone leaving a mineralized copy of the original cell structure. The other type of pet wood are the limb casts. Wood that gets buried by volcanic ash burns away leaving a cast filled in later by silica. You end up with outer surfaces of wood with random agate or jasper insides.
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Jan 6, 2011 10:37:58 GMT -5
*L* Yep Curt, I am considered a bit strange by many of my peers. Hell, by pretty much everyone *L*. Fairly early in my career I became interested in a new science I invented myself. I began to study scientists as a species. Working first for a research foundation and then for the AG Dept, I quickly became aware that there was something wrong with science that I term "the whore factor." You see, scientists have to eat too and to do so they must make money. To eat well, lots of money. To make such money, they must either score grants from governments or foundations, sell books, or become popular speakers, TV personalities etc. To do these things you must please other people and to please other people, it is often necessary to twist the truth a bit or often a bunch. The more money is available, the more twisting there must be to make the "science" exciting and something to exploit financially. Unfortunately, after more investigation, in most cases the truth will eventually come out and the earlier information will just turn out to be guesses, sometimes wrong, sometimes correct.
Had a lot of experience with this at the AG dept over the years. A bunch of scientists would invent a new miracle pesticide and come forth to talk all the farmers into buying said chemical. They'd come around a sell it hard, give lectures about how safe it was etc etc. They'd sell a bunch of chemical and make a bunch of money. The farmers would use the heck out of the new miracle chemical and then, in a few years, oops folks and animals start getting sick, the environment starts getting polluted etc etc. Then another bunch of scientists get together and write books and go on the lecture circuit and make money telling everyone how bad said chemical is. Then another bunch of scientists got together, did real studies, and banned the new miracle chemical. Then the chemical companies go sell the left over chemicals banned in the US to third world countries where they poison their people and environment. Ironically, some of these third world countries use the banned chemicals on produce they ship back into the US! (Sampling of incoming produce for illegal residues is a joke). Saw this happen dozens of times and over thirty years and saw some of my friends die from long term exposure to some of these chemicals.
As a result of my study of scientists, I of course became a cynic. I began to see science instructors as science preachers out to develop a following and sell their version of the "good book" of science even at the expense of the truth. I began to see how they played political games to destroy the reputations of those with theories in disagreement with their own. Mainly, I observed how the truth, which is out there, was being micromanaged and the public was only fed small sound bites that the controlling science faction wanted the public to hear, making sure of course, that these bits and pieces supported their quest for money and fame. I'm also, even at my age, still becoming aware of just how much I and others don't know.
So basically, when you hear a guy on TV or whatever spouting what he says is a scientific truth, first, always question such " Truth" and keep an open mind. Second, observe what this scientist has to gain from his truth. Then decide if you want to believe his theories *W* And if you do believe his science, if you live long enough, be prepared to find out it was wrong *L*.....Mel
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bgast1
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Post by bgast1 on Jan 6, 2011 10:39:48 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies. Very much appreciated. I have a few books also that I am trying to get through, but I just couldn't seem to understand how when stuff decays so quickly how you could get a fossil which I suppose takes billions of years to form.
And I third what Curt wrote.
Perhaps I cross posted at the same time as you Mel, but I didn't see what you just wrote.
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Post by texaswoodie on Jan 6, 2011 10:46:33 GMT -5
***I'm also, even at my age, still becoming aware of just how much I and others don't know.***
Yup, I think it's a sign of maturity when you finally realize that compared to what there is to know, you don't know jack, regardless of how intelligent you are.
Curt
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Post by jakesrocks on Jan 6, 2011 10:57:21 GMT -5
Old Chinese proverb. He who knows, and knows that he knows. Avoid him, for he is a fool. He who knows, yet knows that he knows not. Follow him, for he is a wise man.
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Post by mohs on Jan 6, 2011 11:34:03 GMT -5
The wisest man --declared by the Delphic Oracle Knew--he knew nothing Socrates
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Fossilman
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Post by Fossilman on Jan 15, 2011 13:21:32 GMT -5
Most scientists think they know it all,but a very few are good people.I'm self taught about fossils,second generation fossil hunter.Still learning too-LOL I have several books on fossils that you can buy from Amazon(great prices too).....Used of course. Getting out there,studying the land,being the first human to see the fossil as you dig it up,better than any scientist telling a person how to do it...(They think that they are the only people that should hunt fossils too)... Getting your own education by going out into the fossil hunt and enjoying your days looking for them...........Best education you can get in my opinion............Never to old to learn are we.... Happy reading and hunting.
PS: Nature does take its course on fossils and creates the beauty we see in them today. Yes the people on this sight are great with explaining what fossils are and not talking down to a person doing so.......I thank them for that,there are great people on this rock club and thank God for that.......
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quartz
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Post by quartz on Jan 26, 2011 12:12:08 GMT -5
Overall, probably one of the most interesting and truthful threads I've ever read, thanks to all. I'm a couple weeks short of 64, and fortunate to have realized long ago, the more I learned, the more I realized I had yet to learn.
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Post by gaetzchamp on Jan 26, 2011 12:45:54 GMT -5
I work in technology and many of the "experts" here like to "talk, to hear themselves talk." Eventually, everyone tunes them out because they make, what could be a simple statement, turn into a 50-minute sermon.
TRH
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stefan
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Post by stefan on Feb 25, 2011 14:45:20 GMT -5
Mel- again I am amazed! Also if you search info on opals you will eventually stumble upon stories of active opal forming regions (mainly Australia) "fossilizing" items in a very short period of time (ie the cat that was lost in the mine 50 years ago being found Opalized, and an opalized human skull) not sure If I believe those stories (never seen any pictures) but there is pretty good descriptions of how fast opal can build up. Guess what I'm trying to say is that not all "fossilazation" is a lengthy process.
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dbrealityrocks
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Post by dbrealityrocks on Mar 5, 2011 19:16:27 GMT -5
although I'm not a creationist a friend recently said...how do you know that the earth was not created old great discourse here reminding me what 1 of my childhood heroes always said...I KNOW NOTHING !!!!
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tgood1969
having dreams about rocks
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Post by tgood1969 on Mar 5, 2011 19:34:33 GMT -5
I was a fan of Sargent Shultz as well. Miss that old show and the innocents of mass media at that time.
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Minnesota Daniel
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Post by Minnesota Daniel on Mar 9, 2011 15:12:46 GMT -5
"...innocents of mass media..." is dead on. My father was a POW of the Nazis for 27 months. According to him, the guards were ruthless. I can't imagine anyone would even dare suggest a comedy about POW camps today. How sick would that be? I was a kid then, and I still repeat the same phrase today myself, but what in the heck were the grown-ups thinking back then? It was the Nazis for crying out loud!
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Minnesota Daniel
freely admits to licking rocks
A COUPLE LAKERS
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Post by Minnesota Daniel on Mar 9, 2011 16:16:15 GMT -5
If one doesn't understand the difference between the scientific method (look it up for those who mistakenly think it means that theories can be proven) and faith, nothing in this world will ever make much sense. Every scientist that ever lived would tell you that the more they knew, the more they realized just how much they didn't know. THAT is what motivates scientists.
Generalizations and disinformation about so called scientific "facts", or the erroneous assertion that others have made such claims, or about the very nature of scientists themselves, do not contribute to informed discussion, quite the contrary.
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Post by texaswoodie on Mar 9, 2011 17:01:21 GMT -5
I'm going to have to disagree with that statement. In the past yes, that and the quest for the truth motivated scientist. From what I can tell today, the only thing that motivates scientist is money. Tis a shame.
Curt
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