chassroc
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Post by chassroc on Nov 18, 2011 15:02:26 GMT -5
Only six days left to Deficit reduction talks or Automatic cutbacks across the board will be instituted. It is hard to imagine how 6 Ds and 6 Rs can come to any agreement given all the time and effort that has already been expended by both sides.
The blame game is in full force on both sides, R blaming D and D blaming R; no surprise there.
Last week they were trying to insert accounting gimmicks like the end of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan in place of real savings, that seems dead this week.
Both R and D want bolder reduction plans with more bite and long range effect, even though they cannot agree on this small (1.2 Trillion ) reduction plan, hmmm?
I think most on both sides will be happy to let the automatic reductions kick in so they don't lose face or have to explain to Lobbyists or Constituents why a particular program has been hurt.
Republicans don't want to yield on tax increases or pet defense spending items. Democrats don't want to yield on increasing the Medicare age to 67 or reducing SS Cost of living increase or raising taxes on the rich and super rich.
If they do nothing, automatic cutbacks of 1.2 trillion will kick in and the Bush Tax Cuts will expire in another year anyway.
charlie
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Sabre52
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Me and my gal, Rosie
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Post by Sabre52 on Nov 18, 2011 17:15:01 GMT -5
Ahh the whole thing is theatrics and a total farce. Now they say the automatic trigger is not really automatic or a trigger so probably nothing will happen. Plus, the 1.2 trillion is not really even any kind of real cut as it's spread over ten years. It's actually only a very slight decrease in the horrendous rate of spending which now has the deficit over 15 trillion. The real cuts would have to be three or four trillion and almost right away instead of over ten years to have much effect at all.. Just another bunch of smoke and mirrors to fool the idiot masses into thinking this bunch of worthless doofuses is actually working for us. Now, because they are not taking this seriously, we're looking at another possible downgrade and the treasury may be forced into printing more money which amounts to another huge tax on Americans working class. Meanwhile the corrupt folks in power, who are the real abusers of American working folks, use their positions and inside knowledge to get richer and richer and insulate themselves and their families from the damage they do..Mel
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Post by parfive on Nov 18, 2011 17:35:08 GMT -5
Funnily enough, Congress doing NOTHING would be the best outcome, yielding more deficit reduction than any plan to date – Catfood Commish, Obama/Boner, or Super Duper Comm.
The Repugs have been weaseling on the defense triggers for weeks and Panetta’s been whining like a Texas guv, but $45 billion a year is chump change in that friggin’ bloated hole.
Screw ‘em all – do nothing and you’ll get DOUBLE the deficit reduction of any plan out there. Bush tax cuts expire for everyone, all the other temporary tax cuts expire, and the triggers do the rest.
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Post by Rockoonz on Nov 18, 2011 22:37:58 GMT -5
We don't need deficit reduction, we need DEBT reduction. Why should our government be able to run it's budget any different than it's citizens.
Lee
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Nov 18, 2011 22:56:52 GMT -5
You know, I'm far from a math wizard, but it don't take a genius to know what BS this all is. 1.2 trillion over ten years is only 120 billion per year cut. This is chicken feed when you consider the jerks in power are spending like 1.5 trillion "per year" and they refuse to stop spending money they do not have. The estimate if they do not stop spending as they are, will be a 25-30 trillion deficit in ten years but the country will probably go under long before that. We need to cut spending way more than they are trying to do and we need that balanced budget amendment. And as the folks on the telly say, these jerks are just going to kick the can down the road and try and postpone the problem a little longer. You'd think they'd be smart enough to see what's happening in Europe will happen here and do something before it's too late but they'd rather bury their heads in the sand. Shoot, Europe and us are so interconnected, we may go down with them pretty soon anyway. The anarchy in the streets is starting to spread here as it is....Mel
PS: Future owed entitlements including a couple trillion for Obamacare, are currently way more than the 15 trillion deficit too and all that is money added to the bill further on down the line.
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Post by parfive on Nov 19, 2011 1:30:58 GMT -5
“Why should our government be able to run it's budget any different than it's citizens.” It doesn’t. ;D Household debt exceeds $13 trillion. The majority of that is mortgage debt, but other loans and credit card debt are good for $2.5 trillion. Average balance for the fifty million households that don’t pay the credit card in full every month, about $16 grand.
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chassroc
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Post by chassroc on Nov 19, 2011 8:32:11 GMT -5
Ah ... Good old America .. nobody wants to say no, nobody wants to be the bad guy. Parents afraid to tell their children they can't afford the unlimited texting plan, or the $200. prom dress, or they cannot vacation at Disneyland this year.
Corporate Execs are the only ones willing to say no (well only to the little people) not to themselves. They say no to investment in the USA, they say yes to investing in China. They say no to jobs in the USA, even with billions in extra cash
Charlie
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Nov 19, 2011 10:05:22 GMT -5
Man, you are dead on Rich. Americans, for the most part no longer know how to save money for the future. They live in the moment and go by the "see, want, buy on credit" credo. Many skip from job to job so they build no real retirement fund either. Then, they're amazed when they reach retirement age and find they don't have the funds to spend their retirement days going on cruises buying classic cars, and eating rib eye steaks.
Charlie: There you go thinking of businesses as persons, which despite what some insist, is not what they are. Businesses are global animals and their function is to make money for their owners and investors. They don't care about being patriots and that's not their job, though I'm sure many would support their country if it was financially feasible. They care about the bottom line and go where the environment is the most supportive of their efforts. Unfortunately, due to folks like the Obama gang, the environment in this country is hostile to business so, not being dumbasses like our politicians, they go somewhere more friendly to their businesses. To not do so would simply invite failure as no country throws up more obstacles to business development than ours. To think it would work any other way is just moronic and this precisely illustrates just how out of touch with capitalism Obama's gang are. It strikes me as ironic that communist China knows more about and does more to encourage capitalism than our own country that is supposed to be capitalist. But then, I suppose that also illustrates that Obamaites are trending more toward Communism which is not surprising at all *L*....Mel
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chassroc
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Post by chassroc on Nov 19, 2011 11:57:21 GMT -5
Mel, The USA and OBAMA are such a hostile environment that our Corporate Kingdoms had another record year of profits. We put such huge obstacles in their way and we are so unfriendly as to allow GE and others to pay zero taxes. We bend over backwards for these bad ass entities and they only complain with crocadile tears. They get all the advantages and then they complain about high tax rates(which they do not pay any of)... That's is real hostile environment. Big oil company buys up a US pipeline and announces immediately it is reversing the flow of oil in the pipeline and exporting the oil we so desperately need at home; that is a real hostile business environment, isnt it? I'd love to send them all to China or Russia and see how long they would last there
Charlie
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Nov 19, 2011 15:43:28 GMT -5
Charlie: Yup, they made profits, in many instances "because" they went overseas with their efforts. And yes we put a cr*p pile of obstacles in their way here ie. all the new EPA requirements and blocking the Keystone pipeline for example. Or lowering lending rates to banks so low it's easier for them to reinvest in no risk T-bills and make easy profit rather than invest in expanding US businesses through business loans. Wouldn't it be nice if this administration would get a freaking clue and allow the businesses to expand here thus creating a bunch of new jobs, increasing the cash inflow from taxes, and reducing the national debt. Instead businesses like GE go elsewhere, employ folks from other countries, and we lose all the taxes. Again, just like Obama, you don't get it. These business go over seas to make profits and will not return out of the goodness of their hearts. They're not going to stay here and get screwed over by the government and Obama's union buddies until their businesses fail. Making money for their investors is the point! Jeez! Read a freaking book on capitalism for crying out loud! It's about private companies, competitive markets and making goods or producing services "FOR PROFIT". Not some invasive government controlling business, supporting socialist unions and and redistributing wealth. That's freaking communism. And by the way, last time I looked a lot of U S companies were going to China etc and doing just dandy...Mel
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chassroc
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Post by chassroc on Nov 20, 2011 10:56:01 GMT -5
Mel, You just dont get it. You can defend Pipeline companies and big oil all you want but wthout some type of meaningful Regulatory oversight, they run roughshod over good people time and time again. Did you already forget the pipeline spill on the Yellowstone River in July. Recent reports have found potential problems at alwost every pipeline river crossing; those spills do wonders for drinking water; The execs at ExxonMobil drink Evian and don't care. There was a little incident called DeepWaterHorizon not too long ago too. That really helped advance oil exploration didn't it. You would be the first to jump all over the Government, well a Democratic Government anyway, if it happenned again.
charlie
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Post by Rockoonz on Nov 20, 2011 13:45:09 GMT -5
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Nov 20, 2011 13:45:13 GMT -5
Ahh Charlie, you've been brainwashed by all the greenie commies you hang with. Pipeline technology is pretty darn safe. Have a big one right across our ranch and I ride over the right of way every week. That being said there will always be accidents but you don't throw out the baby with the bath water and ban all development because there might be an accident. Do you not drive your car because you might have an accident. And I blame BP and worthless government inspectors for that spill, not "just" the government. And, there are many who would suggest is is you who is the clueless one. I believe I "get it" just fine and it is you that chooses to live in a world of make believe and folks like you that stand in the way of having our country thrive again.....Mel
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chassroc
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Post by chassroc on Nov 20, 2011 15:30:20 GMT -5
Ahh Mel ... you and all the other Corporate Whores just do not get it. You are right to say that "Business' function is to make money" but lets see, people don't need to make money, only business? who is the clueless one?
You talk about pipelines being pretty darn safe. I certainly agree that they are pretty darn safe, but, they just spilled oil into the Yellowstone River. Yes pipelines are pretty darned safe, but pretty darned yucky when they aren't. This isn't the Cuyahoga in Cleveland in 1969 we are talking about, we are talking about Yellowstone. Pretty darn safe is good, but not as good as we would like it to be. I'd like to see more pipelines. I doubt that most Americans would be as comfortable as you having one in their backyard, unless they get some tangible benefit from it. After the oil spill in Kalamazoo in 2010 both Republicans and Democrats tried to pass pipeline safety legislation in both the House and The Senate. Those damn Republican Green Commies are doing it again aren't they? But lets blame Obama for asking for pipeline safety. Let's trust the energy companies to do the right thing when there is a buck to be made.
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Post by Rockoonz on Nov 20, 2011 18:31:15 GMT -5
Not sure what a pipeline has to do with deficit reduction, unless it's the huge green ink pipeline to the money printing presses. Maybe the red ink pipeline to the budget office?
Lee
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Sabre52
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Me and my gal, Rosie
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Post by Sabre52 on Nov 20, 2011 19:57:59 GMT -5
Jeez Charlie: Business's function is to make money, not people making money? Who the heck do you think employs people who then make money? More money businesses make more they expand and the more folks they employ and the more folks pay taxes. One of the reasons fewer folks have jobs now is corporations are cutting back or moving out because it's hard to do business here but this seems to escape you. I suppose you Dems think businesses should break even and give all the extra profit to the government to redistribute to slackers and leaches? Hmm, I'm a retired biologist who likes to invest to supplement my retirement so that makes me a corporate whore? I suppose then that makes you some kind of lame sorry assed anachronistic socialist tree hugging hippy like the SDS folks who used to protest on my college campus and muck things up while I was working to get an education. Guess it takes all kinds but I sure am glad there ain't many like you round these parts. Reminds me of one of the main reasons I left Commiefornia *L*.....Mel
Your anti development mentality is the precise reason why we can't build power plants, refineries, dams , pipelines etc and why America is falling more and more behind on infrastructure and energy development. At some point folks have to realize that these projects create jobs and are necessary because we are running out of resources. Risks can be assessed and minimized but not totally eliminated as greenies think necessary. You can't always be stopping dams because of some minnow or stopping pipelines because you might have an accident. Nothing man builds is that perfect.
Lee; The math is simple Pipeline = more jobs= more folks paying taxes and less folks drawing unemployment and other government entitlements= deficit reduction unless gull danged Democrats and Republicans spend the savings like drunken sailors.
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chassroc
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Post by chassroc on Nov 20, 2011 20:37:09 GMT -5
Mel, Why is it that you cannot stick to the point? Where is this nonsense about tree hugging coming from? What is this nonsense about asking business to break even coming from? Where am I asking for business to give extra profits away? You let your imagination run away from reality. Investing money does not make you a Corporate Whore, but making excuses for corporate misdeeds does. Blaming Obama for regulating companies and industries that have created some of the biggest Environmental disasters when both Republicans and Democrats agree that regulation (of pipelines) is necessary for our protection does..
You are not the only person who worked his whole life. You are not the only person who worked to get an education. I put myself through college; Can you say the same? I have worked my whole life. I have raised children and I got no help from anyone, but I imagine most of the people on this forum can say the same thing. Stop feeling sorry for yourself, these things are nothing extraordinary.
I am anything but anti-business and as I stated before I am for building all the pipelines the country needs. I don't hug trees, (except the petrified ones and the ones with those lovely cherry blossoms).
America is not falling behind in energy development. We are doing more energy exploration than ever before. We do not know if fracking will destroy water wells and fresh water aquifers on a massive scale, but I'd hate for the Government to wait until a crisus before looking into what is going on. And I dont think destroying someones environment to make someone else rich should be done willy nilly. I am not a tree hugger or a minnow lover but I do think that peoples rights to live a peaceful life and live on their own farm should trump someone elses rights to destroy it. And that requires regulation. I am the first to shake my head at beaurocratic nonsense and regulations that screw the economy or someones right to make a buck, But that does not mean that someone can walk all over me or my rights.
charlie
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Sabre52
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Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
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Post by Sabre52 on Nov 21, 2011 0:01:16 GMT -5
Charlie: Yep, put myself through college, was married while still in college and had $400 to our names. I don't make excuses for anyone's misdeeds but businesses are not all bad either. I just think you have a different less human needs based and less practical view of reality. And, even though I'm an ardent animal lover and kind of a tree hugger in some ways myself, as long as humans refuse to curtail population growth, human needs come first. Shoot Charlie, to me you're as hopeless as a little lost lamb. Always been happy I don't have children because I believe we're going to see the Michael Douglas quote in one of the Wallstreet movies come to be. This coming generation is the N. I. N. J. A. generation. No income,, no jobs or assets. Reckon I'll just wait till we start running out of stuff and see if ya change your tune. It's plain we'll not agree on much of anything. So, though I don't hold out much hope Republicans will do much better, we can let the vote decide which direction America goes....Mel
PS: I also find it amusing you getting on the "stepping on individual rights" soapbox. To my way of thinking, it's always the Democrats who are stepping all over our individual rights and states rights with all their mandates and messing with our private business. ( ie Obamacare, stopping states from protecting their own borders when the feds won't do it etc etc.) The progressive credo seems to be a big centralized nanny government with them taking away constitutional rights to achieve control over the folks.
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Post by parfive on Nov 21, 2011 1:39:35 GMT -5
@ Rockoonz – No, I won’t remove residence mortgages from the picture because a fair chunk of that figure is second mortgage and home equity loan debt, which just fueled more consumer overspending.
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Post by parfive on Nov 21, 2011 1:59:09 GMT -5
A couple of nuggets for the drill, baby, drilltard crowd. Valero Enery refineries in Port Arthur, Texas, will be processing a big share of the tar sands crude and a lot of what they produce will be exported. “In the second quarter Valero exported 69,000 b/d of gasoline to Mexico and South America and 143,000 b/d of distillate to Europe and South America, representing about 18.2% of its total distillate production and less than 6.6% of gasoline.” Valero is just one of about sixteen destination refineries and those exports will increase dramatically. Nothing wrong with that in and of itself, but it puts the lie to our “urgent need” for this tar sand crud in the US. It’s just the easiest and a more profitable way out for the Canucks. But here’s the cool part – by sending less crud to Midwest refineries and more to the Gulf, TransCanada predicts an increase of $6.55/barrel (or 15¢/gallon) for gasoline in the Midwest US - Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Tennessee, and Wisconsin. “Based on eliminating an average discount of $3.00 per barrel on this volume of heavy crude, the annual revenue to the Canadian producing industry would increase by approximately $2.0 billion (U.S.). Additional producer revenues are possible if the Keystone XL Pipeline also relieves the oversupply situation in the Midwest. As discussed earlier, the market prices of Canadian heavy crudes should rise in the Midwest and in Western Canada by another $3.55 per barrel.” That wasn’t made up by one of Mel’s brainwashed greenie commies, it’s straight from the horse’s mouth - TransCanada. bit.ly/skPsTVPretty good deal, eh? Canada gets easier access to the world-wide export market, we get more refinery pollution and higher gas prices. The pipeline’s not even approved and these foreign pricks are throwing their weight around with US landowners. "A Canadian company has been threatening to confiscate private land from South Dakota to the Gulf of Mexico, and is already suing many who have refused to allow the Keystone XL pipeline on their property even though the controversial project has yet to receive federal approval." www.nytimes.com/2011/10/18/us/transcanada-in-eminent-domain-fight-over-pipeline.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1319040113-KBy8Ga/rNc9hkfz4ySdM+Q
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