chassroc
Cave Dweller
Rocks are abundant when you have rocktumblinghobby pals
Member since January 2005
Posts: 3,586
|
Post by chassroc on Dec 9, 2011 6:33:54 GMT -5
Most of us, if we have not felt outright joy, have given at the very least, tacit approval, to the "Arab Spring" movements. Many of us remember how great we felt about the anti communist demonstations that helped topple the Iron Curtain, the Gdansk uprising in Poland, the brave soul in Tiananmen Square, the pride we felt in America.
Ignoring, if you can, your personal likes or dislikes of specific groups, just how far should we allow our Government go to stop protests that don't want to go away quickly?
If, How soon, When? What is off limits? Is there a right to protest indefinitely? What is the time limit? Must there be a permit to protest? Who decides...the people you are protesting against? To what extent should protestors be allowed to inconvenience others? Should they have "Squatters Rights" Hell no, we wont go, but after 11PM who wants to hear it? Is there a curfew?
If something you believed in dearly was the subject of the protest, what rights do you have in America? Where do you draw the line. Don't be a politician here and rail against some movement you don't like. Think of your favorite cause and tell us what should be allowed and what is not. Or should we squash all protests?
charlie
|
|
|
Post by Toad on Dec 9, 2011 7:43:13 GMT -5
I felt no joy in the Arab Spring. As bad as the dictators may or may not have been, the alternative (so far) appears to be worse.
|
|
|
Post by texaswoodie on Dec 9, 2011 8:02:16 GMT -5
Yeah, the Arab Spring could go either way. Not looking so good in Egypt right now.
As far as America goes, your right to protest ends when you encroach upon the rights of others. If people have to walk through your filth to get to work, if you close down businesses, if you create riots that endanger other people, if your immorality offends other people, your right to protest has ended.
Curt
|
|
chassroc
Cave Dweller
Rocks are abundant when you have rocktumblinghobby pals
Member since January 2005
Posts: 3,586
|
Post by chassroc on Dec 9, 2011 9:26:18 GMT -5
As Americans, we won't like the outcome of Arab Spring and what happens when it spreads to Saudi Arabia and Kuwait and UAE? (and most likely Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan)...a lot of hatred and mistrust of America in that part of the world and we are very likely to end up with a lot of Iranian influenced governments but if you believe in American priciples you root against The Sadat's, Assad's, and Khadafi's of this world anyway.
Good observation Curt...no encroaching on the rights of others...lots of common sense here. but to protest effectively dont you have to encroach on the rights of others and endanger them?
Charlie
|
|
|
Post by Toad on Dec 9, 2011 9:28:41 GMT -5
Good observation Curt...no encroaching on the rights of others...lots of common sense here. but to protest effectively dont you have to encroach on the rights of others and endanger them? Charlie You're probably right, Charlie. To be effective, it has to hurt. But then those of us not protesting should be able to hurt them back, yes?? Todd
|
|
chassroc
Cave Dweller
Rocks are abundant when you have rocktumblinghobby pals
Member since January 2005
Posts: 3,586
|
Post by chassroc on Dec 9, 2011 9:33:09 GMT -5
I suppose you are correct Todd but getting back to the point. does anyone have the right to protest in the USA and how far can they or the powers that be go to stop the?
Charlie
|
|
grayfingers
Cave Dweller
Member since November 2007
Posts: 4,575
|
Post by grayfingers on Dec 9, 2011 9:39:11 GMT -5
Q What speech activities are protected by the First Amendment? A Making speeches, handing out leaflets, holding or attending rallies, carrying posters and demonstrating.
Q Can my free speech rights be restricted because of what I say – even if it’s controversial? A No, the First Amendment prohibits restrictions based on the content of a person’s speech. However, this does not mean that the First Amendment completely protects all types of free speech activity in every circumstance. Police and government officials are allowed to place certain nondiscriminatory and narrowly drawn “time, place and manner” restrictions on the exercise of First Amendment rights.
Q Can a speaker be silenced for provoking a crowd? A Generally, no. Even the most inflammatory speaker cannot be punished for merely arousing the audience. A speaker can be convicted for incitement only if he or she specifically advocates illegal actions and only if such illegal conduct is likely to imminently occur.
Q Do counter-demonstrators have free speech rights? A Yes. Although counter-demonstrators should not be allowed to physically disrupt the event they are protesting, they do have the right to be present and to voice their displeasure. Police are permitted to keep two antagonistic groups separated but should allow them to be within the general vicinity of one another.
Q What other types of free speech activity are constitutionally protected? A The First Amendment covers all forms of communication including music, theatre, film and dance. It also protects actions that symbolically express a viewpoint: for example, wearing costumes or holding a candlelight vigil.
Q Where can we pass out leaflets or hold a rally, march or demonstration? A Generally, in any public forum (see next question). Expressive activity is allowed in public forums as long as it does not interfere with the rights and activities of others – for example, demonstrators may not block pedestrians, business entrances or traffic. Government may sometimes regulate how these activities take place, but not on the basis of their content or message.
|
|
grayfingers
Cave Dweller
Member since November 2007
Posts: 4,575
|
Post by grayfingers on Dec 9, 2011 9:43:07 GMT -5
Here is a good video about Occupy Bill
|
|
Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,466
|
Post by Sabre52 on Dec 9, 2011 10:21:49 GMT -5
First off, the "Arab Spring" is just going to result in a bunch of radical Muslim governments that increases the list of enemies we have to deal with and threatens the US and Israel to an even greater extent. Not something to rejoice about at all.
Regarding protest in this country. Long as they are peaceful and clean up after themselves like the Tea Party events, OK. Free speech covers protest. Soon as they turn violent, destroy property, trespass and vandalize, destroy or disrupt the businesses of folks trying to make a living or make a mess taxpayers have to pay millions to clean up as has happened recently, then bring in the cops and clean them out till they learn how to behave. Lawbreakers go to jail and get fat fines to pay for cleanup.
I supposed protesters do have to do something that causes some hurt to be effective, like a strike or some such. *L* But then you have to have a job and be doing something of significance first so folks will notice you're striking. This may disqualify a lot of the recent bunch of anti 1% protestors. If a lot of them went on strike, no one would notice *L*....Mel
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2011 11:09:21 GMT -5
I got one really bad ass whipping when I was a kid and that was all it took. My whole outlook after that point in my life was to not do anything that would bring about another ass whipping. I can remember it like it was yesterday. I did not protest because I knew that I was in the wrong. Would I protest about something today? If I thought it would do any good, yes I would. Do I think it would do any good? NO. How do you protest about people in million dollar houses drawing subsistence or people selling their food stamps for their own needs and letting their kids go hungry. In countries were thieves get flogged there are very few thieves. In countries where child molesters get executed there are very few child molesters and they defiantly do not get released to do it again. And on and on. A good ass whipping would go a long way in saving this country from the downward spiral.
I grew up on a farm, tilled the soil, AND killed the chickens. I thank the people that do that for me now "cause I do not want to do that no mo". My family of five ate 300 pounds of beans in one winter and I "do not want to do that no mo also". Jim
|
|
|
Post by Toad on Dec 9, 2011 12:09:31 GMT -5
In answer to your question, Charlie - as long as folks aren't breaking laws they can protest.
Just look at that butthead church that protests the military funerals...
|
|
|
Post by Rockoonz on Dec 9, 2011 13:29:09 GMT -5
Winston Churchill said "Show me a young Conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains" or something to that effect. I think that being able to express the heart when young has a profound influence on how we express the wisdom later in life. When I get into a conversation with the former young Republican "everyony sucks but me" type, generally my eyes glaze over in about 30 seconds and everything they say sounds like the teacher on the Charlie Brown cartoons, blah blah blahhh. Same with the labor union "no need to check them out, just look for the D's on your ballot" type. ( I often wonder how it would go over if I marched with our local OWS group carrying a "Unions Aren't People" sign)
Charlie, I think that allowing protests up to, but not beyond the point that peoples lives and property are at risk has been the best way to deal with protest historically, but we all need to understand that over the long haul these "movements" are co-opted by special interests. The Tea Party became the "celebrate wealth" movement. and OWS has been used as the "pay no attention to the president behind the screen" movement. Both are excellent examples of how group think can take a lot of normally intelligent people and lower the collective IQ to idiot level.
Over the long haul we shape what society is to become by the decisions we make when no one is looking.
Lee
|
|
chassroc
Cave Dweller
Rocks are abundant when you have rocktumblinghobby pals
Member since January 2005
Posts: 3,586
|
Post by chassroc on Dec 9, 2011 15:15:01 GMT -5
Seems like we are saying it is ok to protest, as long as it is legal and it doesn't make a mess. Isn't that pretty much what Putin, and Assad are saying?
No comments about for how long a protest can last
Bill - Are you sure you're not a Lawyer? You're answers sound very precise to me.
|
|
grayfingers
Cave Dweller
Member since November 2007
Posts: 4,575
|
Post by grayfingers on Dec 9, 2011 15:54:45 GMT -5
Heavens no, Charlie! More of a curious George...Though lawyers do have their place in our society, I feel that the level of litigiousness in our country is one of our biggest problems. I am an advocate for tort reform. I have always wanted to be a detective though, I love solving mysteries.
As far as I know, there is no time limit for a protest. As long as no laws are broken they should be able to go on indefinitely in public areas. Even requiring a permit goes against the right of freedom of assembly. I am totally supportive of the right to protest, It is just about as important as any of our constitutionally guaranteed rights and freedoms. I actually agree with those who are out there with an understanding of the corruption and greed on Wall St (which in no small part runs our government) At the same time, the conundrum lies in the fact that many folks seem to lose sight of the real problem being greed and corruption, they are the enemy, not the business community.
It is those who have nothing better to do, and have little or no understanding of the issues that trouble me. Many of the protesters express greed for things they think they are entitled to, without earning them. Products of a society that has been corrupted. As the video above describes, it is a sad thing to see so many have bought into the cradle-to-grave nanny state entitlement mindset.
As Lee said, too often these movements are co-opted by those who plot behind the scenes to advance an agenda that is not in the best interests of the general population. Just as the Arab Spring has been engulfed by fundamentalists that will deliver the opposite of the freedoms the people are seeking, the same can happen here with the extreme right or left.
Bill
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2011 15:56:52 GMT -5
Way back in the day the worker protests which transformed into unions accomplished a lot of good for safety and other working conditions. Pretty hard to figure out how long it took before greed took over and people got paid $25 an hour to tighten down a nut. Kind of like asking someone how long it takes to polish a rock and the age old answer is "until it is finished". So, there is no answer to that question, "how long?". Collective bargaining "the right to assembly" could go on forever but when people are trying to avoid stepping in shit it "the protest" should not have started in the first place because there was nobody willing to do the dirty work. Jim
|
|
grayfingers
Cave Dweller
Member since November 2007
Posts: 4,575
|
Post by grayfingers on Dec 9, 2011 17:27:54 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by jakesrocks on Dec 9, 2011 17:54:33 GMT -5
Why go to all of the trouble passing ordinances ? Go after the creeps that are setting up food services for them. Just send in the health inspectors and shut their food supply lines down. After all, they do it to little kids trying to sell lemonade in front of their own houses. Fair is fair.
|
|
chassroc
Cave Dweller
Rocks are abundant when you have rocktumblinghobby pals
Member since January 2005
Posts: 3,586
|
Post by chassroc on Dec 10, 2011 12:50:13 GMT -5
Way back in the day the worker protests which transformed into unions accomplished a lot of good for safety and other working conditions. Pretty hard to figure out how long it took before greed took over and people got paid $25 an hour to tighten down a nut. Jim...I think that happened about the same time as the hired management started getting millions of dollars to mange the workers who tighten down the nuts and many millions more when they quit the company.
Bill...just kidding with you but as you say...there is a place for lawyers in this country. A litigiousness society could not exist without the approval and full endorsement of its citizens who make up the juries that award outrageous restitution. But I trust my lawyer will help create a more just and equitable society than a corporation will.
Requiring a permit to gather and protest is real difficult to swallow. So easy for the authorities to abuse. But where do you draw the line? Can you?
Regarding greed and corruption blaming the business community is wrong and those who do so are wrong. But blaming those in Industry who are responsible for ruining the Economy is the right thing to do. And as far as Government is concerned, we need Sarbanes Oxley type statutes enforced on our Legislators to stop the cozy arrangements they have with the business community.
There are always those in every movement who are hangers on, the Posse or entourage, so-to-speak. They should not characterize the movement as they live from handout to handout and gravitate to where they can get the next handout.
The extreme left and the extreme right co-opt the policy of movements and often the country. (domestically and abroad this is the truth). I detest either extreme and I believe most people do so as well. Fundamental change usually comes from the extremists however. Most of us will go along with the status quo rather than commit extreme acts. We will compromise even when we know we are right. The Hitlers and Stalins of this world have no concern about who lives and dies, only that their dream lives on.
|
|
chassroc
Cave Dweller
Rocks are abundant when you have rocktumblinghobby pals
Member since January 2005
Posts: 3,586
|
Post by chassroc on Dec 10, 2011 12:56:22 GMT -5
Both Republican and Democrats go to court every election to prevent demonstrations and they usually win; Either by preventing the protesters from getting permits or by forcing them to protest behind fences in less conspicuous places. OWS will be no different
Don- that is exactly what was done in the case of OWS; most places shut it down with health and safety statuates
charlie
|
|