chassroc
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Post by chassroc on Apr 16, 2012 12:23:25 GMT -5
Advanced Alzheimer's
I find many of our friends on the right seem to suffer from the same advanced Alzheimer's our beloved President Reagen suffered so horribly from. If you look at the political threads, you read some absurd denials about Reagen made over and over again. I have to wonder is they practice revisionist history or suffer from Advanced Alzheimer's?
They remember him cutting taxes. He cut the highest tax rate for the rich from 70% to 50%. We can all remember that.
But it didn't work out so well and he raised taxes to help keep the ever increasing deficit from getting out of hand. Our friends cannot remember this part too well. They are like Rush Limbaugh and Eric Cantor and deny this ever happened. Reagen didn't raise taxes they say. And surely our beloved President would not have raised tazes eleven times, eleven times, that didn't happen they say. Hmmm, revisionist history or Advanced Alzheimer's?
They remember him reducing the deficit...Just kidding with you here. Every knows that President Reagen increased the deficit dramatically and reversed a trend of almost all Presidents (with the possible exception of President Ford) since WW2. Although I think that unlike Bush and Cheney he never said deficits don't matter.) It was scary and the trend continues today with the exception of our great President Clinton, who reversed the tendency and actually ran surpluses which, of course, was all squandered by President GW Bush. Our friends on the right seem to have forgotten that the trend to big deficits funded by tax cuts was started by Reagen, they forget that he tried to temper the increased deficits by rolling back some of the tax increases. Hmmm, revisionist history or Advanced Alzheimer's?
President Reagen's tax cuts put America back to work, say our friends on the right. Oops, unemployment jumped to 10.8% after Reagen cut taxes, going from 7.5% to 10.8 percent in the two years after the tax cuts were installed. Impossible say my friends on the right, Look at the figures I tell them; No matter what the figures are we wont believe that tax cuts could lead to higher unemployment. Hmmm, revisionist history or Advanced Alzheimer's? The unemployment rate did eventually go down but, just like today, under much more difficult economic times, it took far longer than anyone could have imagined, getting down to 7.2% when he was reelected and under 6 at the end of his second term in office.
Some of the other things my friends on the Right have a hard time believing is that President Reagen illegally sent weapons to our "Friends" in Iran. You know, the country where the Ayatollah kept Americans Hostage. President Reagen would never arm a country that is openly hostile to the USA, he's a Patriot not a traitor. I agree he is not someone we would consider a traitor, but he did arm our enemies. None of us want to believe it but ...hey lets refuse to accept such nonsense. If that's true that President Reagen armed our enemies, then President Nixon is a Crook. again is it revisionist history or Advanced Alzheimer's?...
I lived through these times.
charlie
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grayfingers
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Post by grayfingers on Apr 16, 2012 12:31:01 GMT -5
Whew, Charlie. . . had me worried. I saw the title of your post and thought you had some sad news. . . I thought to myself, That would explain a lot of your recent posts. Glad that is not the case, guess it must have another cause. . . Bill To respond in a slightly more serious manner, I will say that perhaps we can agree that stats and other numbers can be spun to agree with any agenda. And, if we are always consumed by pointing one finger at each other and the other finger at the past I suspect we will get what we always have got. (As we do what we always did) Perhaps it would be wise to realize that our spending has left us with no pence to pay the piper, and proceed accordingly.
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Fossilman
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Post by Fossilman on Apr 16, 2012 14:17:39 GMT -5
Can't compare Reagen with Obummer........Ronald was a great man!!!!!
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sheltie
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Post by sheltie on Apr 16, 2012 18:36:14 GMT -5
As one of your friends to the right (more to the middle, actually), I can only add that Reagan did one thing that was in dire need at that time, and perhaps even moreso now. He helped unite the country right after the Iran hostage incident and helped develop a sense of pride in our country that has not existed - with one short burst because of 9/11 - since then.
Charlie, I not only lived through those times, I served the nation prior to and during those earlier times, for over 20 years. Trust me, you weren't the only one who remembers what Reagan, or any of those prior or since, contributed to this country, one way or another.
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chassroc
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Rocks are abundant when you have rocktumblinghobby pals
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Post by chassroc on Apr 17, 2012 7:49:17 GMT -5
First I want to thank my friends on the right for some restraint, OK I was just kidding about some of you...
You can live in denial, but one of the things that made Reagens legacy was that he swallowed his pride after realizing that "Trickle-down" economics weren't working. All those tax cuts were producing bigger deficits and less jobs, nothing except more more money for the wealthiest Americans at the expense of the rest of America. The Tea Party and others who fight for more and more money for the richest Americans will not swallow their pride and admit they are wrong, The wealthiest Americans are not creating jobs; they are sending it elsewhere (as they cry about high tax rates they do not pay);
I never really noticed it before but now that you bring it to my attention, the similarities between Presdient Reagen and President Obama are striking. They both came to office in recessions that are largely considered to be caused by their predecessor's. They both instituted programs that increased the deficit and did not immediately help the economy. In both cases, by the end of their first terms the country seemed to be on a path toward economic recovery. President Reagen had a much easier time with Congress as Republicans and Democrats in those days worked for the people more than they worked for their parties.
Democrats rallied behind President Reagen as they rallied behind President Bush because they care more for the country than their own pride and ideology. Today's Republicans refuse to back their own ideas after the President agrees with them.
charlie
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droseraguy
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Post by droseraguy on Apr 17, 2012 8:04:26 GMT -5
It's nice to see some civil talk both ways along with good intentioned poking now and again. On another "plant hobby" forum it's hard to talk without a bunch of kids flaming up now and then. I tend to listen to both sides and pick the best if any they have to offer. What I did think was that I was a Tea Party type guy.... not one of the give back to the rich so they can dole out their leftovers and create a job for me. My definition of the Tea Party is equal dislike for both Republicans and Democrats alike. I think the "organized" Tea Party folks are not as real as they would like to appear. Keep up the talk though I enjoy hearing from both of you ! Chris
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grayfingers
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Post by grayfingers on Apr 17, 2012 9:21:06 GMT -5
Chris, welcome! Yes, though we do frequently engage each other in the arena of ideas we keep it friendly for the most part. I believe that these sort of discussions are a valuable part of understanding where we have been as a country, and where we need to be. The topics addressed here in "Life" often cause the participants as well as the "innocent bystanders" reading them to realize the value of accessing (and re-accessing) our beliefs and assumptions.
Regardless of one's leaning to the left or the right, it is a healthy exercise to debate with those who hold a differing view. That is the whole point of a form of governance such as ours. If we fail to remain involved, government becomes our master.
Bill
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droseraguy
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Post by droseraguy on Apr 17, 2012 10:31:22 GMT -5
Thanks, I was a bit hesitant to make my 2nd post in this line of talk but hey I have no good rock things to talk about yet. Not until I get done building my saw and grinding wheels that is !
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sheltie
freely admits to licking rocks
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Post by sheltie on Apr 17, 2012 13:47:59 GMT -5
Charlie - is the misspelling of "Reagan" and "President" before his name any indication that your generation was the beneficiary of a Democratic congress which didn't believe in spending money on education? Surely you don't think a Republican would deliberately misspell his name or write "Obummer" when he meant "Obama", do you?
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Post by helens on Apr 17, 2012 13:53:11 GMT -5
I'm glad that Education matters to some Republicans... Because Romney wants to get rid of it: www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/17/mitt-romney-department-of-education_n_1431138.html"But if Romney was hoping to buffer himself from attacks by stopping short of calling for the Department of Education's elimination, he underestimated the reaction to his position. "If all he wants to do is use the Department of Education to go after unions -- then he’s clearly not interested in using it to help kids," Randi Weingarten, the president of the American Federation of Teachers said in a statement. "How does it help kids when Romney wants to use the federal government to undermine teachers and their unions? Romney is out of touch. He doesn't get it.""
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Post by helens on Apr 17, 2012 14:03:46 GMT -5
Chris, welcome! Yes, though we do frequently engage each other in the arena of ideas we keep it friendly for the most part. I believe that these sort of discussions are a valuable part of understanding where we have been as a country, and where we need to be. The topics addressed here in "Life" often cause the participants as well as the "innocent bystanders" reading them to realize the value of accessing (and re-accessing) our beliefs and assumptions. Regardless of one's leaning to the left or the right, it is a healthy exercise to debate with those who hold a differing view. That is the whole point of a form of governance such as ours. If we fail to remain involved, government becomes our master. Bill Well said:).
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sheltie
freely admits to licking rocks
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Post by sheltie on Apr 17, 2012 15:17:46 GMT -5
I'm glad that Education matters to some Republicans... Because Romney wants to get rid of it: www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/17/mitt-romney-department-of-education_n_1431138.html"But if Romney was hoping to buffer himself from attacks by stopping short of calling for the Department of Education's elimination, he underestimated the reaction to his position. "If all he wants to do is use the Department of Education to go after unions -- then he’s clearly not interested in using it to help kids," Randi Weingarten, the president of the American Federation of Teachers said in a statement. "How does it help kids when Romney wants to use the federal government to undermine teachers and their unions? Romney is out of touch. He doesn't get it."" If you, or any other person be they Democrat or Republican, truly believes anything that is said by a member of one party about a member of the other party, I have a piece of flint I'd be happy to sell you for $100. One has to prioritize what ones personal preferences and beliefs truly are and then act or react accordingly. I try to avoid all the huff and puffery that is spouted by, and I'll use your example, the Huffingtons of the world (I'd also balance that by including the Rush Limbaughs of the world as well). It's not always best to speak in glaring generalities, but if one believes in what are considered to be liberal causes, you can expect them to lean to the Democratic Party. If one espouses what is generally considered conservative values, then they are Republican, etc. However, as I age, I find that is not true so much any more. All my life until about 20 years ago I was a Republican. I finally wondered why I didn't vote for some issues and people I felt most represented my point of view, regardless of party affiliation. It's amazing how much sense that makes. IMO, and it isnt at all humble, anoyone who votes straight party line is either an idiot or lazy.
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grayfingers
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Post by grayfingers on Apr 17, 2012 15:28:31 GMT -5
Here's what the guy that is the none-of-the-above choice thinks about DOE
On November 14, 2008 Ron Paul said in a New York Times interview:
“First, the Constitution does not authorize the Department of Education, and the founders never envisioned the federal government dictating those education policies.
Second, it is a huge bureaucracy that squanders our money. We send billions of dollars to Washington and get back less than we sent. The money would be much better off left in states and local communities rather than being squandered in Washington.
Finally, I think that the smallest level of government possible best performs education. Teachers, parents, and local community leaders should be making decisions about exactly how our children should be taught, not Washington bureaucrats.
The Department of Education has given us No Child Left Behind, massive unfunded mandates, indoctrination, and in some cases, forced medication of our children with psychotropic drugs. We should get rid of all of that and get those choices back in the hands of the people.”
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Post by helens on Apr 17, 2012 15:29:42 GMT -5
Excuse me, but those were Romney's words, caught with an open mike: firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/16/11225309-first-thoughts-romneys-own-hot-mic-momentI am not a Democrat. I am a Republican who will not vote for the criminals that are trying to ruin this country this election, and whom have completely distorted everything the Republicans have stood for for over 100 years. THIS year I'm voting Democrat. That doesn't mean I'll be voting Democrat 4 years from now. You should read the news, then do your prioritizing. While I may read both sides propaganda, I'm not stupid enough to fall for either. I look for the horses mouth when it's available. These were ROMNEY's off-mic caught in the act words.
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grayfingers
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Post by grayfingers on Apr 17, 2012 15:36:12 GMT -5
Doesn't sound that radical to me, gotta start tightening up the bloated belly.
From your link: Here is what Romney said. He singled out HUD for possible elimination. "I'm going to take a lot of departments in Washington, and agencies, and combine them. Some eliminate, but I'm probably not going to lay out just exactly which ones are going to go," Romney said. "Things like Housing and Urban Development, which my dad was head of, that might not be around later.” He said he’d cut the Education Department, though not eliminate it entirely, referring again to that 1994 Senate defeat. "The Department of Education: I will either consolidate with another agency, or perhaps make it a heck of a lot smaller. I'm not going to get rid of it entirely." Romney also identified specific loopholes and deductions that he’s eliminate to finance his across-the-board tax cut. "I'm going to probably eliminate for high income people the second home mortgage deduction," Romney said, per Haake, adding that he would also likely eliminate deductions for state income and property taxes as well.
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Post by helens on Apr 17, 2012 15:46:03 GMT -5
I'm on the fence about HUD... not sure that we need that either.
I am not on the fence about the Dept of Education AT ALL. One thing they do is collect data on how education compares from state to state. I can think of a lot of doomsday scenerios for education left in the hands of individual states. For example, say someday, Scientologists (or muslims, or atheists, or whatever) become dominant in a state, and want to teach a particular religious agenda (or lack of). Without a Federal Standard or any oversight, they can conceivably deny certain levels of education to certain groups, ie., Christians.
The whole grade K-12 system is a Federal system. Why can't Christians be given only grade 1-5 education? In states with NO state income tax (like Florida), the only funding would come from local property taxes for schools. It's very easy to see that they may not be sufficient income to educate students through 12 grade. So what becomes the criteria?
No more doctors, no more scientists out of that area? What if the state could only afford to fund education through grade 6, and then from that point, you have to pay? So brilliant children that could be tomorrow's Einsteins get stopped at a 6th grade education because their families are poor?
Again, this is out there, but when you take away standards, that gaping hole can be filled by almost anything. These are currently inconcievable scenerios, but ONLY because we have Federal standards. With zero regulation for states educations, there is no reason it can't happen.
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grayfingers
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Post by grayfingers on Apr 17, 2012 16:01:17 GMT -5
I agree there has to be federal standards, that is one of several reasons I can't vote for Ron Paul. However, to suggest that Doe and other under-performing depts. getting restructured would equal out and out abandonment seems a bit premature.
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Post by parfive on Apr 17, 2012 16:21:07 GMT -5
“Surely you don't think a Republican would deliberately misspell his name . . . “ Nah, but they’re mighty fond of Regan around here. ;D
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Post by parfive on Apr 17, 2012 16:22:57 GMT -5
Ronald Reagan
in Two Words
Iran Contra
Boland Amendment
October Surprise
Supply Side
Trickle Down
Mount Rushmore
Ha Ha
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Post by jakesrocks on Apr 17, 2012 16:33:03 GMT -5
Don't go bringing Mt Rushmore into this. Us Dakota folks don't take kindly to folks messing with our mountain.
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