deedolce
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since October 2006
Posts: 1,828
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Post by deedolce on May 12, 2012 13:36:02 GMT -5
So I was trying to save up for a 14" saw for a while, but I'd need to save twice as much as I've managed. So now I"m thinking 10 or 12". I'm NOT handy whatsoever, so am thinking new is the way to go with me. I decided to 'downgrade' my size desire, because of looking at what I'd like to cut, and also I have a local rock shop that can cut the few large rocks I've bought into manageable pieces for me. So I'm thinking between these 3 saws, and would welcome comments about pros and cons~ Barranca BD-10 - www.therockshed.com/equipment2.htmlI've read good things about them here, and it's aluminum so I can use water. But the site says it can only cut 2 5/8" high with power feed, which seems really small for a 10" blade. Lortone TS10-C - www.therockshed.com/equipment2.htmlStainless steel, so I can still use water, and less expensive, but I've heard conflicting things about Lortone saws. And no power feed. Lortone LS12C - www.therockshed.com/equipment2.htmlWell, I'd have to use oil but it cuts 4" x 7" and is less than the Barranca. I have a WF I use ALOT, so I'd be using 2 instead of using just a 10" with water. I like just about everything about using water instead, but I would be sawing outside, so it could work. Any thoughts? :help:
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Post by jakesrocks on May 12, 2012 13:59:35 GMT -5
My personal preference would be the 12" saw. You can cut everything that you can with the 10", only larger. I think you should still be able to use water with it, as long as you use an additive.
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Post by deb193redux on May 12, 2012 14:36:58 GMT -5
I like my LS12, and the rockshed has the best price around. ask them if you can get it with a 303c blade or without a blade. YOu cannot trim - only slab. The 10" saws have tables, so trim is possible.
the oil cleaning is a 2-person job because the saw is heavy to lift up off of the tray. if you could have a local welding shop cut a hole and put a drain with ball-valve on the bottom, that would be 1st class.
IMO, no power feed is a deal breaker.
I know you said new, but you should think about the LS-10 that has a posting in the buy-sell section. It has been modified for a drain. it is a great saw - bul slabs only, no trim.
I think you could find a used BD-10 it top condition for about $600.
If you really want to use water and be able to slab and trim, the BD might be best.
As for the "handy" issue, I was not mechanical when I got my 1st used saw. But one learns.
You will need to use two wrenches to change the blade. You will need to lift off the table to clean out the tank - even if you use water it still gets ground rock in the bottom. There is no such thing as "tool free" saw ownership. I am not sure a used saw in good working condition requires any more fussing with tools.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2012 14:48:43 GMT -5
I have the 12" Lortone in a very worn old model and I love it. I have had several people send rocks to me to slab because they could not get them into their 10" saw. It seems to me that you should be able to find a refurbished older model for a lot less money. I bought mine from a friend of my niece for $50.00 with no motor but I am mechanically inclined so adding a motor and replacing the bearings was no problem. It has a lot of slop in the moving areas but it cuts smooth as silk. I do use oil but with the amount of cutting I do I only clean it out twice a year. Cleaning it is not easy and it is really messy but if you had someone to help you lift it you could take it to a car wash and clean it pretty easy. Like Don said you could probably use water with an additive but without a rust inhibitor additive I think you would have some serious rust problems.
I do clean mine without moving it. Messy almost to the shoulder but it is possible.
Good luck with whatever you choose. I know you will enjoy the hell out of it. The cost spread out over the years of enjoyment will be well worth it. Jim
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QuailRiver
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since May 2008
Posts: 1,634
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Post by QuailRiver on May 12, 2012 18:35:14 GMT -5
I have a 14" Lortone that is basically built like the 12" Lortone. So not to void the warranty I haven't added a drain valve yet. When I drain the oil I use a gasoline/kerosene type plastic hand pump siphon like the one shown here tinyurl.com/c8pocnu . Once I drain the oil into a bucket I remove the top section, pour cat litter on the sludge to thicken it and then scoop it out. Once the warranty is up I'll install a valve in the bottom of the tray to drain the oil from.
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Post by gr on May 12, 2012 19:29:28 GMT -5
Dee, I have a BD10. I don't know about the other two but, I highly recommend the BD. I've had mine for 2 yrs and have not had a problem with at all. User friendly in my opinion. Feel free to PM me any questions you might have.
gary
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deedolce
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since October 2006
Posts: 1,828
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Post by deedolce on May 12, 2012 22:40:11 GMT -5
Thanks for all the responses everyone! I've reread it dozens of times, trying to feel stronger about one way or the other! Deb193 (I was hoping you'd pipe in ) I have brought it down to two, with your comment about power feed. I LOVE the BD saw, but I'm afraid I'll get frustrated by my rocks being just a little bit too big, and I swear, the 'large' rocks I measured were all between 3 and 3 1/2 inches tall. Modify: My bf saw me looking at saws and said that the threaded posts for the clamp can be replaced with longer ones, so I can clamp larger pieces, and flip it, like Gs had suggested. AND he really is pro-water, for ease of clean up and disposal. So NOW, I'm leaning back towards the BD-10. Quick question. I have an old and leaking 14" saw that I may have found a home with for Helen's friend that we're trying to get into the RTH family, but it's filled with mineral oil, rainwater and sludge. Bad me. How can I dispose of it so I can clean it up?
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cccbock
spending too much on rocks
Member since December 2011
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Post by cccbock on May 12, 2012 23:22:04 GMT -5
I am going to commit slab saw heresy here but do a google image search for lapidary tile saw......You will find several pics of 10 inch tiles saws guys ae using for lapidary slabbing.....they do a great job and are remarkably cheaaper than "lapidary" saws of the same size. ......I just bought a used one off ebay ....100 bucks shipped.....You can buy a brand new one at harbor freight for 249.00......The ones you mention are great saws to be sure and any one would make you happy............but for the price I would think real hard about the 10 inch tile saw route............
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Post by deb193redux on May 12, 2012 23:33:46 GMT -5
the tile saw has no autofeed, and no cross-feed. It can make slabs, but it is wrong to say it does a great job. You can get a vise/clamp, and rig a gravity feed, but even thickness (cross-feed) is still a problem. Also, the water spray is very very much more than a 10" trim/slab saw. With practice you can cut OK slabs, and it is cheaper. But a proper vise and cross feed is priceless. dee: you can notch the larger rocks in trim saw mode, then use a chisel and hammer to make two pieces that can be put in the vise for slabbing. Getting taller threads for the vise and stopping the cut when it is about 2" into the rock, and then using the chisel is also a good idea. I ran a similar saw with water and low-sudsing detergent when I 1st started cutting. You will go through blades faster, but still get many cuts per blade. Also, water does not lubricate as much and you have to cut slightly smaller agates than with oil.
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deedolce
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since October 2006
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Post by deedolce on May 13, 2012 0:08:52 GMT -5
Ah, I didn't even think of that Daniel! I thought I'd have to take it to someone to cut it smaller, that's an awesome idea.
How long did you run the water and detergent before you went to oil?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2012 1:21:50 GMT -5
Dee, if you have the means, take the old saw to a car wash, turn it on its side and spray, spray, spray with hot, hot, hot. Their sump collects (or should collect) oil. They get it all the time from people cleaning engines and a lot of other oily things. It will be a lot easier than trying to clean it by hand. I made the mistake of using vegetable oil when I first got my saw then let it set over the summer without using it. What a nightmare. I must have put twenty dollars worth of quarters through that washer but I finally got it cleaned up. If you can, take the motor off before you wash it. If you can not take it off just wrap it real good with plastic and rubber band it tight. Water in the motor won't hurt it much as long as it has plenty of time to dry out before it is turned on. Wear old cloths too, you are gong to wear a bunch of the oil. lol
I am with deb on the tile saw option. I started with one then bought my slab saw. There is just no comparison especially for a woman that may not have as strong a hands as a man and there is almost no way that you can run one in a garage or house because of the spray. I think I would give up rocks if I had to give up my slab saw. Jim
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deedolce
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since October 2006
Posts: 1,828
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Post by deedolce on May 13, 2012 10:29:07 GMT -5
Great idea wampidy, I wouldn't have thought of that! It's uber heavy, I wonder if I could pour most in a tub and pour discretely down the drain and then wash out the saw...
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Post by johnjsgems on May 13, 2012 11:18:08 GMT -5
Dip out any oil you can into gallon container and take to pretty much any auto parts store. I use O'reilly's but only because I buy my automotive oil there. I think you can take 5 gallons at a time. Just tell them it is some old 30 weight. By the way, Barranca makes a vise with cross feed for their version of the MK101 tile saw.
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LarryS
freely admits to licking rocks
SoCal desert rats
Member since August 2010
Posts: 781
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Post by LarryS on May 13, 2012 11:34:58 GMT -5
You mentioned water? Cross Lube Cool off your list! Using that stuff was a nightmare. I've finally found the perfect combo for my 10" Covington saw, which cuts up to 3 1/2". Gem Lube from Kingsley North is the best water soluble lube I've found. I've tried Lube Cool, RV antifreeze & Borax, problems with all of them. Gem Lube is biodegradable and mixes 10 parts water to 1 part Gem Lube. Doesn't foam up and no premature blade wear, no frequent sharpening and no rusting. Motors are running cool. I just turn the saw over on it's side behind the house and wash it out with the garden hose. Refilling the saw with fresh water/lube ends up costing $2.50. I'm currently using the 303C .050 thick blade, which doesn't wobble like the .040 blade. I slab & trim off this saw.
LarryS
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Post by catmandewe on May 13, 2012 12:36:34 GMT -5
Hey Dee, I just refurbished a 12" Lortone and got to play with it this past week, I will have to say I think it is a nice saw. That extra inch over the 10" Lortone saw makes quite a bit of difference. Have not ever played with a Barranca so I can't give an opinion there.
I agree, 12" with some kind of feed is where you should be headed.
Happy Mothers day......................Tony
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Post by deb193redux on May 13, 2012 15:26:23 GMT -5
Ah, I didn't even think of that Daniel! I thought I'd have to take it to someone to cut it smaller, that's an awesome idea. How long did you run the water and detergent before you went to oil? Dee - I did some water, then tried oil, then went back to water. The oil mist was putting a sheen over all the nearby surfaces, and it was not practical when I used it without the hood for trimming. If I had a different hood with arm holes, it might have been possible to trim with oil. Also if I had gotten the level just right to function but with minimal spray ... well who knows. I also cut a lot of jasper, t-eggs and other rhyolite, this stuff is messy compared to hard agate. Having a lot of water (with some detergent for lubrication) not only cooled and lubricated, but it flushed all the matrix crud away. Flushing the cut is important when the materials are messy. Not everything is a matrix-free Brazilian nodule. So between the range of materials and wanting to use it without the vise as well, I went back to water. In the course of two years I did run through several blades, but one was bent when the cut went crooked. The others did wear down to the metal. By comparison, I have been running a 303c in my LS-10 slab saw with oil for over two years and it still looks new. Now I do controlled slabbing on the LS-10 and the LS-12. I do a lot of quick trimming and making small slabbetts on a 7" tile saw, because it is real fast, and I can keep water running onto the table the whole time to control crud. I also notch (or split completely) larger rocks on an old 10" trim saw where I can roll the rock if necessary. Other times I make fairly even slabs (takes practice) on fist sized rocks that would be hard to clamp in the LS-10 - or I want to change the direction/angle of the cut as I go. The point being that one saw will never do everything. Even now I use an angle grinder with a 7" diamond blade to notch even larger rocks so I can chisel-split them for clamping into the 12" slab saw. I have a 4" tile saw with a fairly thin 303c blade for cutting little nodules (e.g. horn coral, Moroccan septarian, tiffany stone) where I want to get a few slices and blade thickness is an issue. For really really thin cuts (like where two marked out cuts actually touch) I use the C-40 band saw. Again, one saw will never do it all - any more than one kitchen knife will ever do it all. On all the saws other then the 4" I go with a thicker blade (.05" or thicker) to avoid bending and to allow some grinding against the edge of the blade. This also suits my impatient style, cause I feed a little fast. One final point worth mentioning, since size is a big part of your consideration, is that you will likely be unhappy if you always cut near the upper end of the vise capacity. This is doubly true if using water. If you have a tile saw for trimming, then go with 12" (or wait for used 14"). You want the rock to be about 3/4 (or less) of vise capacity for most cuts. When I loaded up a hard agate like polka dot where it was about 3.25 x 5, the saw would often bind up and the motor would thermal shut off. There is a lot of area in the cut and a lot of material to flush away and this means a lot of friction. Even with oil, the blade gets dull faster and will bind up on some subsequent cut unless you stay on top of dressing. Sometime when the blade binds and the motor shuts off, an electric auto feed keeps going (like on the BD-10) this is how I bent a blade. The bottom line is that you don't want the saw straining all the time. This will accelerate the wear on the blade and/or the bearings. Today's blades are stronger than past years. The can run faster than some of the recommendations in tables in old books. You can put a slightly larger pulley on the motor to spin the blade a little faster, and this will help it keep up with a large rock that just fits in the vise. But still, you will have some binding problems and some accelerated wear. If you really want to cut mostly 3x5 slabs, then you should go larger than 10" - but, you need to have some other arrangement for trimming the slabs. I hope this all makes sense. PM me if you want to chat on the phone or something.
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deedolce
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since October 2006
Posts: 1,828
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Post by deedolce on May 14, 2012 0:07:35 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing your experience with oil and water AND saws Daniel! To be honest, the vast majority of the rocks I have can be cut on a 10" saw. Both have a 1/3 hp motor, so will the saw straining be because of the smaller blade alone if the motors are the same size? I'll definitely go with the .05 or thicker blade, because I'm rather 'heavy handed' And thanks Larry, for the tip about Gem Lube! It's on my 'get' list with a star next to it! One thing my bf mentioned is my chickens, and that fact that I'll be sawing outside, so water is a must. I'm tending toward the BD and the aluminum body and using all your ideas Daniel, to break the ones I have into manageable size for a 10" - the size of the slab is okay smaller, since I'll be slabbing for my own cabbing, or for giving/trading with other rockhounds and not trying to sell slabs. Thanks again everyone that's posted on this thread! I learned LOTS of things I didn't know, and points taken I hadn't considered, and a few 'tricks' too! I'll keep an eye out for used too, and if nothing comes up in the next month, will probably pull the trigger on 'new' and try not to hyperventilate . ~Dee
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LarryS
freely admits to licking rocks
SoCal desert rats
Member since August 2010
Posts: 781
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Post by LarryS on May 14, 2012 8:53:44 GMT -5
I had major issues dealing with water. Couldn't get any answers because everyone uses oil for slabbing. I was all alone, boo hoo! So I had to do a lot of experimenting which was starting to get very expensive and frustrating. I was wearing out blades, motors over heating/stalling, etc. Had to make a gravity feed because the power feed ran too fast and would lock up the motor. The motor RPM would drastically bog down. Blade diamond matrix would turn brown to black from heat. Vice was bouncing up and down all during the whole years use of Lube Cool. I was pulling my hair out! I was so happy after trying out Gem Lube. This product actually works as advertised.
Besides the 303C being an excellent blade, you may want to consider the 303P porcelain blade. It's made for water, .060 thickness and the height of the diamond matrix is about 50% more. It takes abuse. Only problem is it's a bit noisier than the 303C's and I live in a place where too much noise can be a problem. Other than that, the 303P worked great on my hard jasp-ag and was fun using while trimming, no chipping and you can grind on the side, no wobble and solid as a rock. JSGems sells all these blades at the best price. If I had to do it all over again, I'd choose the BD saw over my Covington any day. It's designed much better and worth the extra bucks.
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