Post by QuailRiver on Oct 14, 2012 4:58:17 GMT -5
As some of you who know me already know, in order to grow my own collection, I buy other old lapidary collections. I often have to buy an entire collection to get the best price. So to help pay for what I keep out of the collection, I sell off the portions I don't need on eBay. I enjoy refurbishing the equipment and the time I spend in the shop doing so gives my wife enough "quality time" away from me for her not to want to kill me in my sleep at night!
In the process of following what the secondary lapidary market is doing, I have noticed some changes that have taken place in the last year or two that I think may be hurting the hobby and has gotten me thinking about something I'd like to run by the group to see what the rest of you think? Please forgive this being such a lengthy post but I didn't spend much time in the shop away from my wife this week so I'm afraid to go to sleep tonight...and don't have anything else to do!
In the interest of growing the hobby I've been wondering if we the lapidary community should try to do something to address the increasing trend of general merchandise reseller's who misrepresent lapidary equipment on Craigslist and eBay. And are preying on the inexperience of the newcomers to our hobby. One sure way to turn a newbie against a hobby is to burn them on their first expensive purchase, or by them getting the impression that the hobby is full of sharks.
General merchandise (non-hobbyist) resellers hunting for items to flip for profit at estate sales and institutional auctions occasionally find lapidary equipment. The old-school professional resellers used to just list those finds on eBay, in "as found" condition in the auction format. Usually with a starting price near what they paid for the item plus estimated eBay fees. Whatever the high bid was above that starting price was their profit. The market determined the value - and that seemed fair. But the bad economy has brought a new group of people into the general merchandise reseller's market. And whether out of desperation or just greed, they are too frequently making false claims of value and/or condition. Some do this out of ignorance and some are doing it intentionally. Any given week you can find ridiculously over priced or misrepresented listings in the lapidary-tools category on eBay and also on craigslist. Here's a couple of recent examples I've seen.
Last week I responded to a local listing for lapidary equipment. The would be seller showed me an old 1960s-70s style Highland Park Cabbing machine with two used 8" grinding wheels and two dry rotted, 8" Expandable sanding drums (which at least one I could see had large chunks out of it), and an old 8" leather covered polishing disc on the end (no trim saw). I asked him what he was asking for the machine and he said "Well I see them like this sell on eBay for $1,000.00". Tsk-tsk! I have followed eBay lapidary listings daily for years and I don't recall a single like machine bringing anywhere near $1,000.00. This machine at best, on a good day for the seller...$400.00. On a fair day for the buyer...$275 - $300. But if I had not known better, he may would have convinced me I was getting a deal at $750.00 which later I would have learned was a rip! I didn't even bother making him a counter offer!
On Craigslist now there is a listing for an Imahashi Faceting Machine that I had seen in a gallery consignment auction ad last week. The new owner is asking $1,300.00 and gives a glowing description claiming that this machine can routinely turn out 20,000 carats per month and that it had cost more than $6,000.00 new. Tsk-tsk! The Imahashi Faceting machine was/is made in Japan. They were available in the U.S. in the 1980s and early 90s. There is no longer a U.S. distributer and hasn't been for around twenty years now. I remember seeing ads in the 1980s Lapidary Journals for this same machine with accessories and it listed for about $1,150.00 back then. Which is probably about what this one sold for when new. A new one today if ordered from Japan, with the current exchange rates, runs around $3,500.00 with accessories. The Imahashi machine is a good solid machine but it uses short 6mm diameter shaft dops instead of the standard 1/4" diameter shaft dops that most faceting machines use. So the dops, along with all of the other accessories are not sold in the U.S. and would have to be ordered form Japan. The used Imahashi faceting machine with just what is shown in the Craigslist ad is IMHO at best worth $850.00. And as for the claim of this machine being able to routinely produce 20,000 carats per month - that would average out to 667 carats per day if you worked 30 days straight with NO days off. Also it would be an average of 133.3 cut and polished 5 carat stones, or 66.7 cut and polished 10 carat stones, every day. If you worked twelve hours per day, didn't stop to eat or go to the restroom, then that breaks down to an average of one 5 carat stone every five minutes and twenty-four seconds, from start to finish, or one 10 carat stone every ten minutes and forty-eight seconds. All on a two speed, 6" lap machine. So you can imagine how disappointed and frustrated any buyer who got caught up in that seller's slick ad will be once they realize the truth and find out that they still have to spend several hundred dollars more on laps, and also order dops, a dop transfer jig, and index gears from Japan?
So what I have been wondering is if there might be a simple way that we may be able to help educate new-comers to the hobby so they don't make discouraging mistakes. I'm not an IT guy but would it be complicated to add a discussion category to this site devoted specifically for questions and answers about used equipment values, and capabilities, for new comers? And maybe to have a good key-word search response for internet search queries that would direct queries to that same new discussion category? Or would it be possible to create a file contributed to by the members that functions like a price-guide for various pieces if equipment in various regions of the country? Or does anyone else have any ideas as to what we might be able to do to help in this? Thanks for seeing this post thru!
Larry Cashatt
In the process of following what the secondary lapidary market is doing, I have noticed some changes that have taken place in the last year or two that I think may be hurting the hobby and has gotten me thinking about something I'd like to run by the group to see what the rest of you think? Please forgive this being such a lengthy post but I didn't spend much time in the shop away from my wife this week so I'm afraid to go to sleep tonight...and don't have anything else to do!
In the interest of growing the hobby I've been wondering if we the lapidary community should try to do something to address the increasing trend of general merchandise reseller's who misrepresent lapidary equipment on Craigslist and eBay. And are preying on the inexperience of the newcomers to our hobby. One sure way to turn a newbie against a hobby is to burn them on their first expensive purchase, or by them getting the impression that the hobby is full of sharks.
General merchandise (non-hobbyist) resellers hunting for items to flip for profit at estate sales and institutional auctions occasionally find lapidary equipment. The old-school professional resellers used to just list those finds on eBay, in "as found" condition in the auction format. Usually with a starting price near what they paid for the item plus estimated eBay fees. Whatever the high bid was above that starting price was their profit. The market determined the value - and that seemed fair. But the bad economy has brought a new group of people into the general merchandise reseller's market. And whether out of desperation or just greed, they are too frequently making false claims of value and/or condition. Some do this out of ignorance and some are doing it intentionally. Any given week you can find ridiculously over priced or misrepresented listings in the lapidary-tools category on eBay and also on craigslist. Here's a couple of recent examples I've seen.
Last week I responded to a local listing for lapidary equipment. The would be seller showed me an old 1960s-70s style Highland Park Cabbing machine with two used 8" grinding wheels and two dry rotted, 8" Expandable sanding drums (which at least one I could see had large chunks out of it), and an old 8" leather covered polishing disc on the end (no trim saw). I asked him what he was asking for the machine and he said "Well I see them like this sell on eBay for $1,000.00". Tsk-tsk! I have followed eBay lapidary listings daily for years and I don't recall a single like machine bringing anywhere near $1,000.00. This machine at best, on a good day for the seller...$400.00. On a fair day for the buyer...$275 - $300. But if I had not known better, he may would have convinced me I was getting a deal at $750.00 which later I would have learned was a rip! I didn't even bother making him a counter offer!
On Craigslist now there is a listing for an Imahashi Faceting Machine that I had seen in a gallery consignment auction ad last week. The new owner is asking $1,300.00 and gives a glowing description claiming that this machine can routinely turn out 20,000 carats per month and that it had cost more than $6,000.00 new. Tsk-tsk! The Imahashi Faceting machine was/is made in Japan. They were available in the U.S. in the 1980s and early 90s. There is no longer a U.S. distributer and hasn't been for around twenty years now. I remember seeing ads in the 1980s Lapidary Journals for this same machine with accessories and it listed for about $1,150.00 back then. Which is probably about what this one sold for when new. A new one today if ordered from Japan, with the current exchange rates, runs around $3,500.00 with accessories. The Imahashi machine is a good solid machine but it uses short 6mm diameter shaft dops instead of the standard 1/4" diameter shaft dops that most faceting machines use. So the dops, along with all of the other accessories are not sold in the U.S. and would have to be ordered form Japan. The used Imahashi faceting machine with just what is shown in the Craigslist ad is IMHO at best worth $850.00. And as for the claim of this machine being able to routinely produce 20,000 carats per month - that would average out to 667 carats per day if you worked 30 days straight with NO days off. Also it would be an average of 133.3 cut and polished 5 carat stones, or 66.7 cut and polished 10 carat stones, every day. If you worked twelve hours per day, didn't stop to eat or go to the restroom, then that breaks down to an average of one 5 carat stone every five minutes and twenty-four seconds, from start to finish, or one 10 carat stone every ten minutes and forty-eight seconds. All on a two speed, 6" lap machine. So you can imagine how disappointed and frustrated any buyer who got caught up in that seller's slick ad will be once they realize the truth and find out that they still have to spend several hundred dollars more on laps, and also order dops, a dop transfer jig, and index gears from Japan?
So what I have been wondering is if there might be a simple way that we may be able to help educate new-comers to the hobby so they don't make discouraging mistakes. I'm not an IT guy but would it be complicated to add a discussion category to this site devoted specifically for questions and answers about used equipment values, and capabilities, for new comers? And maybe to have a good key-word search response for internet search queries that would direct queries to that same new discussion category? Or would it be possible to create a file contributed to by the members that functions like a price-guide for various pieces if equipment in various regions of the country? Or does anyone else have any ideas as to what we might be able to do to help in this? Thanks for seeing this post thru!
Larry Cashatt