Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2013 12:32:03 GMT -5
Clever solar tower?I am not a fan of the man's theology, but science is science and I wonder if this is feasible.
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bushmanbilly
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2008
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Post by bushmanbilly on Jun 27, 2013 12:48:18 GMT -5
Results from a green energy study done in Ontario Canada. www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/straighttalk/archives/2013/06/20130627-073333.htmlWhy? Because as McCarter noted in 2011, "studies in other countries have shown that for each job created through renewable energy programs, about two to four jobs are often lost in other sectors of the economy because of higher electricity prices." Finally we can estimate, based on the auditor general's 2011 report, that creating these 31,000 jobs has resulted in job losses of anywhere from 62,000 to 124,000 positions in other sectors of the Ontario economy, because of the high cost of green energy, which has to be backed up by conventional energy sources, because it is so unreliable. Some day, people will realize the load of bull they've been sold by their politicians on green energy. When they do, I predict there's going to be a run on pitchforks, tar and feathers, right across Ontario.
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Post by jakesrocks on Jun 27, 2013 12:57:02 GMT -5
Public stoning would be better. Give the rockhounds a chance to use up their leaverites.
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Post by rockpickerforever on Jun 27, 2013 13:05:22 GMT -5
The K Road Calico Solar Project - At least this development has been shelved, for now...
Changing market conditions? Cost issues? Could it have been the opposition?? Jean
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Post by jakesrocks on Jun 27, 2013 13:15:26 GMT -5
Could it be that these green energy projects are bottomless money pits ? It takes at least 30 years for a solar panel to pay for itself. The life expectancy of a solar panel in a hot, dry, windy environment prone to dust and sand storms is ten years at best. Where's the green in something that has to be replaced after paying for only 1/3 at best of its initial cost ? Same goes for wind turbines. They have a shorter life expectancy than their initial cost warrants.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2013 21:18:18 GMT -5
Don the easy answer is; yes.
If they were viable, then industry would easily find private capitol to fund them. Because they are not commercially viable, government wonks must steal tax money to fund it.
Jean the Calico Project were/is steam turbine fueled by molten salt heated by the sun reflected from myriad of mirrors. This project is a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE greenhouse with a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGERRRRRRRRRR chimney. The air heated by the earth and sun then rises thru the tower spinning a turbine generating juice. Different concept.
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Post by Rockoonz on Jun 27, 2013 21:21:34 GMT -5
Looks like this project would easily beat the solar panels. $2,000,000,000 to build/$50,000,000 projected electricity production under optimal conditions= 40 year pay back.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2013 21:42:22 GMT -5
Looks like this project would easily beat the solar panels. $2,000,000,000 to build/$50,000,000 projected electricity production under optimal conditions= 40 year pay back. Which seems to be proof it ain't viable!
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Post by helens on Jun 27, 2013 23:22:07 GMT -5
I don't get the science behind this (not odd). Why would moving warm air up a chimney generate power? Also, the higher you go, the colder the air is. So how does building something TALLER help maintain heat? That explanation the article gave is completely insufficient. By that logic, the ground itself would trap and hold heat efficiently, you don't see anyone tell you the ground generates energy. I don't get it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2013 10:18:29 GMT -5
I am not meaning to be condescending. Please do not read this that way. It is precisely the temperature differential that makes this system work. The hot air rising rises faster than it can cool. Helen you obviously understand that hot air rises. Add to that the greenhouse for additional heating and now we have a lot of air movement. Both into the greenhouse and up/out the over-extended chimney.
We can strategically place fans that will spin as the air moves. The spinning is used to generate electricity. This is over simplified but is the general gist of the concept.
32 wind turbines with a combined rating of 200MW.
Feasibility is an issue. First the greenhouse is 2.5 MILES in diameter. Second the chimney is the second tallest man made structure in the world. None of that is going to be cheap.
One (me anyway) could wonder if new buildings could utilize the cooling systems to generate similar airflow and be taken advantage of in the same way.
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Post by rockpickerforever on Jun 28, 2013 10:39:58 GMT -5
Don the easy answer is; yes. If they were viable, then industry would easily find private capitol to fund them. Because they are not commercially viable, government wonks must steal tax money to fund it. Jean the Calico Project were/is steam turbine fueled by molten salt heated by the sun reflected from myriad of mirrors. This project is a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE greenhouse with a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGERRRRRRRRRR chimney. The air heated by the earth and sun then rises thru the tower spinning a turbine generating juice. Different concept. Scott, I got that they are a different concept. I was trying to point out how much of the public lands were being snatched away from all of us. I do like the idea of the one based on heat rising. The other one, with all those mirrors - do you think that large amount of heat being generated impacts the environment? And I can only imagine how much wind-blown dust and sand will cover those mirrors in no time, making them less efficient. Jean
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2013 10:42:41 GMT -5
Don the easy answer is; yes. If they were viable, then industry would easily find private capitol to fund them. Because they are not commercially viable, government wonks must steal tax money to fund it. Jean the Calico Project were/is steam turbine fueled by molten salt heated by the sun reflected from myriad of mirrors. This project is a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE greenhouse with a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGERRRRRRRRRR chimney. The air heated by the earth and sun then rises thru the tower spinning a turbine generating juice. Different concept. Scott, I got that they are a different concept. I was trying to point out how much of the public lands were being snatched away from all of us. I do like the idea of the one based on heat rising. The other one, with all those mirrors - do you think that large amount of heat being generated impacts the environment? And I can only imagine how much wind-blown dust and sand will cover those mirrors in no time, making them less efficient. Jean Mirror cleaning @ Calico was mentioned in an article that I cannot seem to find now. Each mirror needed weekly cleaning. I think they needed 12 guys to clean mirrors. That in and of itself shows how inefficient the thing is. In fairness. Heat was not generated. Just reflected and concentrated.
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Post by jakesrocks on Jun 28, 2013 10:47:59 GMT -5
Also very costly to replace. Sand blasted mirrors don't reflect very much light. If you've ever driven across the desert during a sand storm, you've probably ended up with a sand blasted paint job.Possibly even badly sand pitted windows. The same will happen to millions of dollars worth of high tech mirrors.
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Post by Rockoonz on Jun 28, 2013 12:14:08 GMT -5
Helen you obviously understand that hot air rises.. Lee
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Post by helens on Jun 28, 2013 20:37:34 GMT -5
I am not meaning to be condescending. Please do not read this that way. It is precisely the temperature differential that makes this system work. The hot air rising rises faster than it can cool. Helen you obviously understand that hot air rises. Add to that the greenhouse for additional heating and now we have a lot of air movement. Both into the greenhouse and up/out the over-extended chimney. We can strategically place fans that will spin as the air moves. The spinning is used to generate electricity. This is over simplified but is the general gist of the concept. 32 wind turbines with a combined rating of 200MW. Feasibility is an issue. First the greenhouse is 2.5 MILES in diameter. Second the chimney is the second tallest man made structure in the world. None of that is going to be cheap. One (me anyway) could wonder if new buildings could utilize the cooling systems to generate similar airflow and be taken advantage of in the same way. Why not be condescending? I can be, so can you. This doesn't make sense to me, and there's no way to explain something without sounding at least a bit condescending, so condescend away:). Anyway, so you are saying that the air MOVEMENT and not temperature spins the fans to generate the electricity. That makes more sense. Somehow I thought the heat capture had to do with it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2013 21:57:50 GMT -5
I have more class than to be condescending when someone is asking a serious question.
The heat from the sun CAUSES the air movement. The heated air wants to rise There is only one place to rise too, and the moving air has to pass the air turbines on the way.
==========thought experiment Think back to when you were a kidlet in New York. The winter outside was bitter cold. Your father starts a fire in the fireplace. Why doesn't the house fill up with smoke?
Because air from the room stokes the fire, heat wants to rise and the chimney is the only place to rise.
Do you have the path of the air in your mind? From the room, into the fire and up the chimney.
NOW!!!! Multiply that by two hundred zillion brazilians and you have this. The air flow in your childhood fireplace would turn a very tiny fan. This concept would turn two hundred zillion brazilian more tiny fans.
In this model the living room is 2.5 mile radius "greenhouse", the fire is the sun heating the air in the greenhouse and the chimney is... well... the chimney.
If you don't get this one. I hope you won't mind. I'll settle for having given it a fair effort. I doubt you could teach me to make glass marbles. That is fair!
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Post by helens on Jun 28, 2013 22:15:17 GMT -5
I already got the chimney air flow part, it was the heat part that didn't make sense. I thought they were trying to capture the HEAT, not the air movement caused by the heat.
Does seem like an interesting concept that should be tested.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2013 23:13:32 GMT -5
I can tell you that to build a chimney = to the second largest man made anything is going to be so expensive the project will never be profitable. And that is without a napkin or a pen. Now build a circular 2.5 mile diameter greenhouse and you have a local environmental disaster.
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Post by helens on Jun 28, 2013 23:19:06 GMT -5
Highways aren't profitable either, nor is providing drinking water to rural populations or research into causes of things. That's what government is for, profit is what moved us away from simple solutions to infection like rubbing alcohol and herbs to clean/treat bacterial infections into $200 per pill super antibiotics that built up resistant unkillable bacteria strains that cause havoc in hospitals.
Is humanity important or profit? And that's why the government needs money.
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Post by jakesrocks on Jun 29, 2013 0:10:32 GMT -5
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