chassroc
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Rocks are abundant when you have rocktumblinghobby pals
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Post by chassroc on Mar 4, 2014 13:19:18 GMT -5
Hearing a lot of posts supporting action in the Ukraine.
Probably the same people in favor of war in Iraq...until it was time for their boys to serve in a hostile environment where half the people didn't want or like Americans.
There are evil people like Putin in this world (some of them are named Hitler and Stalin and Kim Jong-un) with a need for glory, a one sided vision, and disregard for human life; we also have leaders like our own who weigh the possible outcomes and act appropriately.
You can talk big...but unless you are ready to carry it out, you can be forced into action you never intended to take in the first place. Let's leave the talk to the boys with a need for that sort of thing. Let's keep our boys at home or in places more strategic to the USA.
Like most I feel sorry for the Ukrainians. I grew up with and still have Ukrainian friends. Another Russian with plans to colonize the world, shot, killed, tortured, starved and otherwise enslaved 6-12 Million Ukrainians about 70 or so years ago...more Ukrainians were killed by Stalin than Jews by Hitler. The big bear looms large in Eastern Europe still...but I do not want to send my son over there... the Crimean Peninsula is largely Russian and eastern Ukraine has a good deal of ties to Russia... it is tragic but is it worth US and Canadian blood.
The USA is on a different mission these days...out to make it a better and safer world without fighting every evil dictator around the globe. Much easier to fight than talk but better for all involved to talk until it is time to fight.
Charlie
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bushmanbilly
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Post by bushmanbilly on Mar 4, 2014 18:25:10 GMT -5
Charlie you folks along with the EU made this bed now sleep in it. Read below carefully.
When the Soviet empire crumbled, and Ukraine became an independent country, it was left with more than 1,000 nuclear weapons, and the missiles and bomber jets to deliver them.
But in 1994, the United States persuaded Ukraine to give up its nukes and send them to Russia, its eternal invader and colonizer. And in return, Ukraine was given a beautiful piece of paper.
It was an international treaty, called the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances. The word assurances means promises, and the United States certainly gave plenty of those. One of the promises, agreed to by Russia, was to "reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine."
Ukraine was disarmed, and Russia really, really promised not to attack it.
Russia also promised "to refrain from economic coercion... to secure advantages of any kind." But under Vladimir Putin, Russia has turned off its natural gas pipeline to Ukraine in the dead of winter.
During the Cold War, when Russia started to sell natural gas to Europe, the Kremlin never dared to cut off the gas. It would have been tantamount to an act of war.
But with Ukraine disarmed, and the West on a holiday from history, Putin did it, twice, with little more than impotent chirping from the West.
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bushmanbilly
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Post by bushmanbilly on Mar 4, 2014 18:28:24 GMT -5
"It's only when you see a mosquito landing on your testicles that you realize that there is always a way to solve problems without using violence. "
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bushmanbilly
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Post by bushmanbilly on Mar 4, 2014 20:01:36 GMT -5
The Budapest Memorandum was signed in 1994 by Bill Clinton, John Major, Boris Yeltsin and Leonid Kuchma – the then-rulers of the USA, UK, Russia and Ukraine. It promises to protect Ukraine’s borders, in return for Ukraine giving up its nuclear weapons Excerpted from The Daily Mail: A treaty signed in 1994 by the US and Britain could pull both countries into a war to protect Ukraine if President Putin’s troops cross into the country. Bill Clinton, John Major, Boris Yeltsin and Leonid Kuchma – the then-rulers of the USA, UK, Russia and Ukraine – agreed to the The Budapest Memorandum as part of the denuclearization of former Soviet republics after the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Technically it means that if Russia has invaded Ukraine then it would be difficult for the US and Britain to avoid going to war. Sir Tony Brenton, who served as British Ambassador from 2004 to 2008, said that war could be an option ‘if we do conclude the [Budapest] Memorandum is legally binding.’ It promises to protect Ukraine’s borders, in return for Ukraine giving up its nuclear weapons.
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Post by jakesrocks on Mar 4, 2014 21:54:26 GMT -5
Never fear Billy. Our fearless leader will use his presidential powers to nullify the Budapest Accord, behind the backs of Congress and the American people.
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Sabre52
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Me and my gal, Rosie
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Post by Sabre52 on Mar 4, 2014 21:58:44 GMT -5
Interesting! The document gives security assurances without guaranteeing military help or intervention. Kind of hard to guarantee anything with no guns involved. Seems to call on the useless United Nations too. Poor suckers in the Ukraine probably thought the document actually meant something just like the Amerinds did when they signed treaties with our government. Maybe Obama will send the Ukrainians the ole "Endeavor to Persevere" saw. I'm not for us going to war in someone else's civil strife but if it were me, I don't think I'd believe sh*t in terms of guarantees coming from our country these days.....Mel
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Post by Rockoonz on Mar 5, 2014 0:19:18 GMT -5
@chassrock charlie, start with basic geography... It's Ukraine, not duh Ukraine. Is it The Africa? Is it The China? I absolutely agree we should not be in Ukraine, but that's not the issue. The issue is our nutless wonder of a president is the laughingstock of the planet, and Putin knows it. So our "different mission" involves sending money and arms to islamists so they can topple despotic regimes and replace them with even more despotic regimes? And who had to back away from attacking Syria under false pretenses when the American public caught on to him? Oh and Iran, " yeah, we'll just go ahead and drop those sanctions. Ummm, plutonium enrichment? Oh, you can go ahead and keep doing that, just not too much. (nod, nod, wink, wink)"
Talking is indeed better than fighting, but when it's coming from Obama do you seriously thing theres anyone left on the planet with half a brain who believes it?
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Post by parfive on Mar 5, 2014 2:58:31 GMT -5
The Ukraine was standard/common usage at any socio/economic/intellectual level last century . . . prolly until the neo-Nazis got uppity. : )
The United States
The United Kingdom
The Congo
The Belgian Congo
The Soviet Union
The USSR
The Bahamas
The Seychelles
The Balkans
The Philippines
The yada yada
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grayfingers
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Post by grayfingers on Mar 5, 2014 7:42:52 GMT -5
They dropped "The" when Ukraine gained independence from the Soviet Union. Again, not much said about the EU deal being a breack in the agreement. . . "Significantly, the wording suggests Russia’s insistence that Ukraine forgo an EU trade deal may have already breached the terms of the agreement." "The signatories agreed to “refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind”. Western diplomats are now scouring the text to check whether they are obliged to intervene in the country to prevent it from breaking up if Russia does so first." www.americanthinker.com/blog/2014/03/does_the_1994_budapest_memorandum_obligate_the_us_to_intervene_in_ukraine.html
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Post by Rockoonz on Mar 8, 2014 1:10:20 GMT -5
My Ukrainian freinds NEVER called it The Ukraine, and are quick to correct you if you do. The truly interesting thing is they all regard Obama as a modern day Lenin. But how would they know, right?
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Post by Rockoonz on Mar 8, 2014 1:29:21 GMT -5
My favorite Ukrainian proverb so far is this, The only free cheese is in the mousetrap...
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bushmanbilly
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Post by bushmanbilly on Mar 9, 2014 14:39:43 GMT -5
The UN is useless Mel. Russia can veto anything they do. Kinda like obama does when he changed the ACA bill 30 times with out the houses approval.
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