chassroc
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Rocks are abundant when you have rocktumblinghobby pals
Member since January 2005
Posts: 3,586
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Post by chassroc on Jun 11, 2014 7:02:42 GMT -5
For some human employees...maybe. BP has won authorization to use unmanned aircraft to capture and analyze information at Prudhoe Bay. They've indicated that one use will be creating 3D maps of their operations and to identify where roads need to be repaired , how much gravel is needed and how much gravel remains in their gravel pits. It is a tough world out there and this will probably mean less decent paying jobs for people(IMHO). Csroc WSJ Link
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,466
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Post by Sabre52 on Jun 11, 2014 7:53:02 GMT -5
Yep, In these days of unions and constantly increasing demands for higher wages and benefits, employers are discovering that machines don't need raises, medical insurance, vacations, limited workdays, sick leave, coffee breaks, or even sleep. Sadly, this renders humans unnecessary for lot of basic or even complex tasks and of course, businesses are all about profit and the bottom line, which is why they are called businesses. A prime example of be careful what you wish for, as you just might wish your own job right out of existence by making too many demands.
It's also a world economy now and businesses here must compete with those in foreign countries where labor is cheaper and labor force demands are less exorbitant. As you've stated, it's a tough world out there and perhaps many American and European workers are a bit spoiled and need to learn to be more realistic about how much their labor on their jobs is actually worth......Mel
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stephent
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2014
Posts: 213
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Post by stephent on Jun 11, 2014 9:03:55 GMT -5
That air reconnaissance will work poorly until bad weather..then not at all. But never fear..the bill for it will show up in petroleum prices.
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tkvancil
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since September 2011
Posts: 1,546
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Post by tkvancil on Jun 11, 2014 10:47:14 GMT -5
I used to work for one of the worlds largest printers. They have operations all over the US, China, Europe, South America, Canada, Mexico and many other places. For the most part non-union although a few operations were still unionized, leftovers from the union heyday. Some time around 2000 they began to computerize/automate the printing presses. The computerization in the operation I worked for began in 05 or 06. We were told that this would mean our customers would receive a better quality product. We were told that no one would lose their job. As to quality there was no statistical improvement, quality depended more on maintenance of the machines than anything else. Maintenance is downtime and downtime means the company isn't making money. Of course within in a year all press crews were reduced in size. After all the computers were watching the machines and the company certainly needed to reduce payroll to recoup it's millions invested in automation. People did lose jobs, the ones left actually had to work harder, and the customers didn't gain anything in quality or price. The only winners were shareholders.
In 2012 the operation I worked for closed due to a shrinking market for printed product. I went to work for a union shop that produces parts for the major brand combine manufacturers. It is a much smaller company but still supplies on a global level. I make less now than I did before and will never get back to the wage level I had at the printer. I am however happier as my stress level at work has decreased significantly. In the last contract negotiation the union "gave back money" to the company in everyone's best interest. The company is employee owned, shares go into the employees retirement fund. The more profitable we are the higher the value of our retirement fund. I think it's a good business model.
Less than 8% of private sector workers are unionized in the US. I doubt that that small of a number is driving up labor costs IMHO.
Automation is meant to improve the bottom line and please the shareholders, again IMHO.
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Post by mohs on Jun 11, 2014 14:53:41 GMT -5
Interesting Ken I worked in mail room for a huge corporation we ran IBM 3900 laser double duplexes printer 24/7
I suppose your speaking about news printing machines?
anyway print technology is one of the most underrated human inventions of all time technically complex ingenuity
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Post by rockjunquie on Jun 11, 2014 16:50:35 GMT -5
My husband works for a huge, worldwide company owned by a German family- non union. Just today, they had their yearly meeting at the plant with all of the employees. This company has the highest rate of automation per human employee - in the world. In spite of this fact, the company, believe it or not, never fires anyone due to automation. They shift people around in the company. They are actually very loyal to trained employees. HOWEVER, what this really means, is that they don't HIRE anyone new. It is a wonderful company and is great to work for, really old fashioned with no shareholders. People fight to get jobs there. But, because of automation, less people will have those good jobs.
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tkvancil
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since September 2011
Posts: 1,546
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Post by tkvancil on Jun 12, 2014 1:05:24 GMT -5
Interesting Ken I worked in mail room for a huge corporation we ran IBM 3900 laser double duplexes printer 24/7 I suppose your speaking about news printing machines? anyway print technology is one of the most underrated human inventions of all time technically complex ingenuity The particular type of printing I did was called web offset. Web meaning a continuous roll of paper feed into the printing press as opposed to a single sheet at a time. Offset meaning both sides of the paper being printed at the same time. We did magazines of varying types. City/tourism guides, medical publications, hobby magazines and sports programs to name a few. The printing press was indeed a world changing invention. The last press I ran would produce 40,000 units per hour which translates to 1,280,000 pages an hour. That's along way away from hand set type on a screw press .....
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Post by mohs on Jun 12, 2014 14:56:09 GMT -5
Interesting Ken Print shops are trick Thanks for the explanation
I worked in one huge print shop helping the guy who ran the guillotine cutter cutting posters to size.
I used to sharpen the guillotine blades. The most dangerous job is any sharp shop
I realized the printers you were running weren't single sheet feed The IBM 3900 Double Duplexes were continuous feed also
The roll of paper weighed 1500lbs and if the paper was spun out it would stretch 9 miles if I recall correctly
The paper would enter one printer print one side then the paper would flip & enter the 2nd printer which would print the backside
The paper was 18” wide The cutters would slit the paper down the middle, chop & collate To make the standard 9x12 sheets All corporate crap printing ha ha
So no color-- or high glossy
I got a picture of IBM 3900 and I can't find it really bumming me out hope I do
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Post by Rockoonz on Jun 14, 2014 10:47:23 GMT -5
The machines necessary to automate a lot of processes are out there, waiting for wages to go up enough to make the machine purchase cost effective. At the same time our entry level workforce seems to think they should be paid what their parents are paid after years of working their way up. Both of these realities will soon collide.
The Obama Administration likes to trot out their job creation numbers while conveniently omitting a couple facts: The rate of new jobs created is still below the rate of new workers entering the workforce, and The average wage of these newly created Obama McJobs is significantly lower than previous averages and continuing to fall...
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quartz
Cave Dweller
breakin' rocks in the hot sun
Member since February 2010
Posts: 3,341
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Post by quartz on Jun 14, 2014 12:17:34 GMT -5
Spot on there Lee, I did my last educational program at age 57, never really quit schooling since 6yrs. old. Find it hard to believe a Mc U. grad making $15/hr. I got laid off the first time in 10, laid off second in 12, and retired off next in 13, all jobs with same responsibility and same shop labor rates, and retired at $15/hr, $7.98/hr. less than in 10, why, because they can, and will, when times are tough. More and more, the money is stopping at the top, this earnings disparity is very troubling to us.
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Post by Rockoonz on Jun 14, 2014 13:01:49 GMT -5
"Income inequality" is just a tool of our big Govt masters... Here in the NW is a prime example of the consequences of really bad economic policy. Starting way back in the 70's the feds started cracking down on the forest products and aluminum industries, all heavy industry for that matter. They used the EPA OSHA and other agencies to force expensive upgrades, and with each upgrade came more automation and less jobs. The employees blamed the emplyers for the downturns, driving a wedge between labor and management. Our government overseers and their agencies grew at phenomenal rates so they could better "monitor" industry, as did their taxes, most of which fell on the upper levels of management. The workers thought that was perfectly fine (stick it to the boss) until raise time came along... Drive another wedge into the labor/management relationship, and the workers are insulated from the root cause, out of control government. Given enough cycles guess what you have. You have a corporate ruling class and a serf class at war with each other, not even realizing they are mere puppets with big government pulling the strings. Remember this every time you are tempted to demonize another man either because he has "too much" or because "he wants to take my stuff". In this war the only guilty party is the arms merchant, and his continuing existence depends wholly on keeping the wool pulled over your eyes.
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quartz
Cave Dweller
breakin' rocks in the hot sun
Member since February 2010
Posts: 3,341
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Post by quartz on Jun 14, 2014 14:22:38 GMT -5
I worked in heavy industry for 42 years and saw a lot of change, especially those in the 70's. I understand what you said, and agree to most of it, but there is another aspect too. When the wheels are gone doing whatever, the place still runs fine; if the wheels were the only ones there, the place likely will barely run, if at all. And I've seen it.
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tkvancil
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since September 2011
Posts: 1,546
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Post by tkvancil on Jun 14, 2014 16:33:55 GMT -5
An odd phenomenon began in the 70's. For the first time since the numbers were kept productivity did not fall at the same rate as the GDP. Say for instance during a downturn the GDP fell 5%. Historically productivity also fell at the same 5%. Every down turn since the 70's has bucked the historical trend. So again for example if GDP fell 5%, productivity fell only 3%. This meant an actual gain in profit for business. When things picked back up many workers were not brought back because companies were doing more with less. Automation or fear of losing a job? I don't know.
Deregulation of the financial industry was the root cause of our last financial crisis. Sub prime loans, credit default swaps and other complicated financial practices were only possible after relaxed regulation. The only ones who profited were those who already had. No I'm not against people who are intelligent and driven enough to become wealthy. They are due what they earn but not at the expense of others.
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bushmanbilly
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Member since October 2008
Posts: 4,719
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Post by bushmanbilly on Jun 15, 2014 0:52:01 GMT -5
For some human employees...maybe. BP has won authorization to use unmanned aircraft to capture and analyze information at Prudhoe Bay. They've indicated that one use will be creating 3D maps of their operations and to identify where roads need to be repaired , how much gravel is needed and how much gravel remains in their gravel pits. It is a tough world out there and this will probably mean less decent paying jobs for people(IMHO). Csroc WSJ LinkI believe safety has a lot to do with it. The cost of a rescue mission can get real expensive. Plus the compensation paid if there is a fatality or a injury. I think it would not create any job loses. Even a drone needs a pilot, IT, and mechanical crew. Win win for both company and Nintendo nerds. As most have no other skills than gaming. Kinda like the doc I watched the other night about tanks. The Abrams they had on the show, had a 19 year old gunner. As the commander said, he is very good at video games and mastered the position very quickly.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2014 9:20:00 GMT -5
I used to work for one of the worlds largest printers. They have operations all over the US, China, Europe, South America, Canada, Mexico and many other places. For the most part non-union although a few operations were still unionized, leftovers from the union heyday. Some time around 2000 they began to computerize/automate the printing presses. The computerization in the operation I worked for began in 05 or 06. We were told that this would mean our customers would receive a better quality product. We were told that no one would lose their job. As to quality there was no statistical improvement, quality depended more on maintenance of the machines than anything else. Maintenance is downtime and downtime means the company isn't making money. Of course within in a year all press crews were reduced in size. After all the computers were watching the machines and the company certainly needed to reduce payroll to recoup it's millions invested in automation. People did lose jobs, the ones left actually had to work harder, and the customers didn't gain anything in quality or price. The only winners were shareholders. In 2012 the operation I worked for closed due to a shrinking market for printed product. I went to work for a union shop that produces parts for the major brand combine manufacturers. It is a much smaller company but still supplies on a global level. I make less now than I did before and will never get back to the wage level I had at the printer. I am however happier as my stress level at work has decreased significantly. In the last contract negotiation the union "gave back money" to the company in everyone's best interest. The company is employee owned, shares go into the employees retirement fund. The more profitable we are the higher the value of our retirement fund. I think it's a good business model. Less than 8% of private sector workers are unionized in the US. I doubt that that small of a number is driving up labor costs IMHO. Automation is meant to improve the bottom line and please the shareholders, again IMHO. Unionized ESOP is a huge recipe for disaster. The wrong union leadership bankrupts the company. You are fortunate so far.
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