hornseeker
spending too much on rocks
Member since January 2014
Posts: 268
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Post by hornseeker on Dec 29, 2014 14:09:20 GMT -5
So I've reviewed my pictures and I hate them... none are clear. I just used my iphone 4 and I now know I will have to use my actual camera! Tonight, I promise. But, I have some questions. I was surprised to have used as much grit as I did for this run of a 12# barrel. When I ordered I had asked about getting 5# of this grit and 5 of that... and someone had said to me that the 5# of polish was going to last forever! Well, i used more than half of it to finish this batch of rocl... and I used nearly the full 5# of 60 grit I started with..... then I also used more than half of my 120/220 and my 500 and 1000.... So... I want to refine this and make sure Im not using a lot more grit than necessary. I noticed Capt. Bob talking in my other thread about running the coarse (80) for a "long time" to just be able to skip the 120/220... and possibly the 500.... Lets talk about this a bit! Also... I started with 40-60. I see many threads talking about starting at 80. If I do start at 40-60 or somesuch... will it work the same as starting at 80, evenutally breaking down and turning into the 120/220? Is there any particular reason to use 80 grit INSTEAD of 40/60? Or straight 60 for that matter? I would love to use 80, since after shipping I can get it from Kingsley for about $1.75 a pound... if I buy the 60 or 47-60 its more like 2.86 a pound... Final stages/polish: Say my rocks have a lot of inclusions that dont get ground off... to keep them from getting stained with polish... One thing I imagine would be to not let them dry out... maybe rinse well then run a wash tumble with soap and warm water? THen rinse and repeat? Or... if there are inclusions you are doomed to have pockets of polish in them? I think I have more questions... but cant think of them right now! Thanks all!
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Post by captbob on Dec 29, 2014 14:38:27 GMT -5
Looking forward to pictures. You started this load in October and it's finished?? You used over 2 pounds of polish on one load? Why?? You should be using quite a bit of whatever your coarse grit is. You are shaping there and that's what it's for. You should also be using less and less grit/polish in each of the following stages. Grits can be allowed to run longer and break down into finer grits, but I don't think you need to be going there just yet. Let's figure out the basics before trying to try shortcuts. 40/60 is fine to start with as is 60/90 or straight 80. Use what you can get cheapest!! If you have rocks that you are not happy with (inclusions/whatever) DON'T move them on to the next stage. Stained with polish?? Not sure what you mean there. You used an unusually large amount of grit for one load. I'm not sure why. Are you doing frequent clean outs with grit that is still good? Are you adding too much to try to speed things up? There are tried & true "recipes" that you should be following as a new tumbler. I want to hear more details, but I think you are rushing things and obviously using too much grit/polish. ETA: I started an obsidian load the end of September, and half the rocks are STILL in 60/90. OBSIDIAN. You were tumbling pet wood and jasper/agate? Think about that...
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Post by Jugglerguy on Dec 29, 2014 14:56:09 GMT -5
I agree with CaptBob about going too fast in your first stage. Agates usually take months in just the rough grinding stage. I only take rocks out as they are finished. In other words, the whole batch doesn't get done at once. I just remove a couple each week. To get 12 lbs. ready for the second stage would take forever. It takes me long enough just to get enough to fill my 4.5 lb. Lot-O barrel.
I have always used a Lot-O for all but the first stage, so I'm not experienced in finishing rocks in a rotary tumbler. However, everything I've read says that it takes about 10 days in each stage after the first. So I don't know how you could possibly used 2.5 lbs of polish. You should only be running the polish stage once. Some people run that stage for weeks, but as I understand it, they don't open the barrel at all during the polish stage.
As CaptBob said, the only grit you use a lot of is your most course grit (I use 80 grit from Kingsley). That's why people buy the 45 lb. quantities that Kingsley is selling.
I'm anxious to see your pictures.
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azgnoinc
spending too much on rocks
Member since March 2014
Posts: 484
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Post by azgnoinc on Dec 29, 2014 15:26:17 GMT -5
Here are a couple of questions to answer your questions: Are you doing a total clean out every time you recharge your barrel with grit? If so - that's a grit consuming mistake - keep the slurry you have in there & just add your new grit at the rate of 1 teaspoon per lb of rocks when recharging the slurry - and speaking of slurry - are you recycling any of this for future usage? Again- if you aren't then you should start, because starting with a slurry with expedite the time (though not by much) it takes in the initial grind - which as others have mentioned should be the longest stage that your batches run in. As for when a rock is ready to move to the next stage - that is entirely at the individuals discretion - the longer you do it the more critical you will become of your own tumbles - meaning less will make it to stage 2 then they maybe do today after your initial grind. As for the polish stains you refer to- I personally do a "burnish" stage between every stage from 2 through polish - I use borax & some liquid dish soap for anywhere from 4 hours to overnight & then rinse the hell out of everything - then they move to the next stage & I rarely have any polish left in any nooks or crannies- and those instances I do I make sure the old toothbrush I use for my batches gets a workout. I am by no means an expert, but this is what works for me with pretty good results, I'm sure some of the more experienced tumblers will chime in to add their knowledge too.
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Post by Jugglerguy on Dec 29, 2014 15:57:29 GMT -5
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hornseeker
spending too much on rocks
Member since January 2014
Posts: 268
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Post by hornseeker on Dec 29, 2014 16:09:56 GMT -5
Ok, I've talked about this in my other thread quite a bit, but there are a couple reasons I did not run my coarse grit for months on end... 1. I determined from the get go that I did not want my rocks to be ground down so far that they were perfect, possibly grinding away cool shapes and features in the process... so I settled on the fact that my rocks would be polished in places and rough in other places. I know this doesn't sit well with some of you, but its something am totally fine with. I think in subsequent batches I may do a load that has rocks that I am FINE grinding down until they are perfectly smooth all over with no little divits or cracks... regardless of how much rock I have to grind off to get there. But for this load, I simply did not want to grind every rock down that far.
2. ALL of my rock is gravel bar river rock from the Yellowstone River. Some of the pet wood and agate is really close to being smooth already and I suspect some of it you could dang near skip the rough grind on. Its something I will experiement with in the future. \
So... hmm.... Lets revisit my grit use estimates. I believe I ordered 5# bags of everything from the Rockshed. I may have to look back to be sure. But I found a recipe from the site for polishing using a 6# rotary... and I doubled everything for my 12# barrel. If I remember right (I dont have it with me... or do I... Yep I do)... I used 24 Tbsp of 40-60 grit... 1 1/2 cups. Now is where I may have messed up... I emptied and cleaned after 7 days (this is what the directions from the Rock Shed said)... then put another 1 1/4 cups of 40-60 in and ran it another week or thereabouts....So Im up to 2 3/4 cups of 40-60... Im not sure how much that would weigh? Anybody?? A quick search told me about 1 pound per cup... so... 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 pounds of grit or polish I used on each step. But I used 2.75 cups of 40-60 in 2 weeks of rough grinding!!! Ooops... that may have been a little unnecessary huh??
So I just went through my notes... Here is hte actual breakdown... 1 1/2 cups 40-60 for one week... then clean out. 1 1/4 cups 40-60 for one week... then clean out. 1 1/2 cups 120-220 for 8 days... then clean out. 1 1/2 cups 500 for 13 days...... then clean out. 1 1/2 cups 1000 for 11 days..... then clean out. 1 1/4 cups Polish for 6 days.... then clean out. Done
Observations: Polish is not perfect... sheen can be better for sure. Most rocks are glossy/wet looking... to a degree. Some better than others.
Rocks are FAR from being completely smooth, many with LOTS of little chips and cracks that do not take a polish... but "collect" polish and leave a white "stain" there from the polish.
I rushed... and even though I and all my friends and family think the rocks are awesome, I know it could be better!
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hornseeker
spending too much on rocks
Member since January 2014
Posts: 268
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Post by hornseeker on Dec 29, 2014 16:19:37 GMT -5
I will likely re-work some of my finished rocks over someday... but I started a new 12# batch Saturday... I will let it run for a couple weeks then recharge it with some 40-60 and let it go again. No hurry this time. The last one was my first and I was anxious!!! I also dont have any rocks in this current batch that I am worried about grinding too far, so I may just grind these ones to the rounded smooth stage instead of letting some go one with surface imperfections.
Here is the recipe I used... I actually "started" with the directions that came with the tumbler from Rockshed... and the Lortone directions, but finished with these directions:
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hornseeker
spending too much on rocks
Member since January 2014
Posts: 268
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Post by hornseeker on Dec 29, 2014 16:22:57 GMT -5
6# Rotary: Stage 1, 60/90 silicon carbide.
Charge a 6# barrel at least 3/4 full with very rough, chisel-cracked rock, add 6 fluid ounces water, add 4 Tb of 60/90 grit. - the 3/4-full barrel is because the volume will shrink quickly as the sharp edges wear off the rock, and after about 1 day you can hear things tumbling much better. - consider using plastic pellets for rocks that chip easily or have a lot of fractures such as amethyst, rose quartz, petrified wood because the pellets may soften the action a bit and thereby prevent chipping. Pellets can also help if a very big rock is going into the barrel. For things like agates, pellets aren’t needed and only slow down the action in the barrel. After 2 days, open the barrel and add 3 Tb fresh grit (total now 7 Tb). Need a spray bottle to wash grit from the lip of the barrel, but this doesn’t add much water. Add some extra coarse rock if the level has dropped significantly.
After 2 more days, do another 3 Tb recharge (total now 10 Tb). Again, use water from the spray bottle to rinse the lip of the barrel. If the slurry is getting too thick then add more water, but gravy consistency is good.
Optional after 2 more days, repeat with 3 Tb grit (total 13 Tb) -- this will only work when tumbling very hard materials such as agates. For just about everything else, a total of 10 Tb is the maximum before the slurry gets too thick in the end.
Let tumble 4 more days since last addition of grit. Clean up everything. If the stones are free from imperfections and are nicely shaped, move on to stage 2, otherwise put them back through stage 1, adding fresh-cracked rock to make up to volume. If using all partly-shaped rock, maybe don’t fill the barrel quite so full because there won’t be a rapid volume reduction to help things tumble properly.
With amethyst, I found that 1/3 of the amethyst was ready after 3 weeks, another 1/3 was ready after 5 weeks, and the other 1/3 still needed additional tumbling. Jaspers seem faster, agates seem slower. Agates can take 8-12 weeks, depending on type and size. Need to do multiple loads and combine them to have enough for a stage 2 and beyond run, because there is a big loss of volume.
Stage 2, 120/220 silicon carbide.
Charge the barrel with about 2/3-3/4 volume of rocks, a good dose of plastic pellets for fractured rocks, 6-8 fl. oz. water (6 oz. for very hard materials, 8 oz. for jaspers or softer), 10 Tb grit. Don’t use the same plastic pellets as for stage 1, keep plastic pellets and sieves separate for each stage. You want enough pellets to cushion things a bit, but still maintain a vigorous tumble that works the stones. The rocks shouldn't be crashing around, but should definitely be making a good tumbling noise. For solid rocks like agates or crazy lace you can get away with no pellets. After 7 days, clean everything thoroughly.
For the cleaning, do a double soap wash -- put rocks and plastic pellets back in the barrel and add water until the water comes about half way up the barrel, add 1.5-2 Tb of shavings from a bar of Ivory soap, and add extra pellets to fill the barrel to within about a half-inch of the top (because the cushioning effect of the slurry is now gone so extra pellets are needed to prevent chipping). Then run the barrel for about 45 minutes, clean thoroughly. Repeat. Separate pellets and rocks, move rocks to next stage and dry pellets for re-use in another 120/220 load.
Stage 3, 500F silicon carbide. Similar to stage 2 -- place in the barrel the stones from 120/220, 10Tb of grit plus 8 fl.oz. water, then tumble for 7-10 days. Don’t add too many pellets -- should hear rocks clearly tumbling against each other, not crashing, but making some noise -- this speeds up the action in the barrel compared to having lots of pellets and just a faint tumble noise in the barrel. Finish off with two - 45 minute soap cleanings of pellets and rocks. At this stage, the stones will have a very matte finish that doesn’t look much different than after 60/90, but they should feel noticeably smoother.
Stage 4, polish. This is where science gives way to art. There is a tricky balance between polish, water, rock and pellets. What seems to happen is that the polish incorporates a lot of air during the first day, forming a foam that usually lasts 10 days or longer. So don’t worry if the tumble initially sounds a slight bit rough, once the air gets mixed in over the next 12-24 hours the tumbling will quiet down. My basic recipe so far is to charge barrel up to 2/3 with rocks, about 10 fl. oz. of water, add 12 Tb polish compound, add plastic pellets until the barrel is 3/4 full or maybe a bit more, and run for up to 3 weeks. For polish, I use aluminum oxide, which is cheap and good for most stones. The barrel should make the sound of gently tumbling rocks -- not too soft, not crashing about. If too soft, may have to open and remove pellets or add water, if too rough may have to add more pellets. It's best not to open the barrel unless absolutely necessary or to see if the stones are fully polished, because a barrel full of foam is really messy to seal up again.
I've had some stones become fully polished in as little as 9 days but most stones improve for 2-3 weeks, then they won't get any shinier. When I think the stones should be finished, I open the barrel and remove a few stones and examine them with a 10X loupe. Under magnification it's fairly easy to tell if the surface is a good as it's going to get. If in doubt, put them back in the barrel, run things another week, and see if they improve. Patience!
Final Cleaning. When the stones are polished to your satisfaction, put the barrel-load in a plastic sieve and rinse away the polish but DO NOT LET THE STONES DRY OUT! If the stones become dry, any residual polish in any crack or pit will turn into cement and will never come out. Place the wet stones, pellets, fresh water (to halfway up the barrel) back into barrel, add 1-1.5 Tb shaved bar of ivory soap, then fill the barrel almost to the brim with plastic pellets. This should make for an extremely gentle tumbling sound when the barrel is placed back onto the tumbler -- i.e., just the slightest tumbling noise from the rocks. Run for about 6 hours to clean residual polish out of any cracks. Rinse, dry, and admire!
The above recipe is for a 6 pound barrel on my Lortone rotary tumbers. Scale to your own barrel size, as needed. Oh, and the multiple grit additions in coarse grind are opitional, you could just go with 10 Tb on Day1. That's the way I used to do things, but then I found I really needed to add more grit (5 Tb) after 4 days or so because all the coarse grit had been broken down. Now, by adding the 60/90 grit in stages, I cut down on overall grit usage by at least 1/3, and I believe I get better results as well.
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hornseeker
spending too much on rocks
Member since January 2014
Posts: 268
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Post by hornseeker on Dec 29, 2014 16:23:58 GMT -5
One last question. The author of that method/recipe skips from 500 to polish... I used 1000... Necessary???
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Post by Jugglerguy on Dec 29, 2014 16:25:54 GMT -5
Yep, now that you mention it, I do remember you explaining why you didn't go for long in the rough grind. That's fine if you are not going for perfectly smoothed and rounded rock, but I'd be extra careful about cleaning between stages. I'm extra careful anyhow, and I try not to run anything with holes in them. Azgnoinc suggested a cleaning run between stages. I agree completely. In my Lot-O, I do two cleaning runs for 15 minutes to an hour. You can tell if you've cleaned enough by how clean the water runs when you rinse them. As you mentioned, you shouldn't let them dry out at all until they're completely done.
As for grit usage, for rough grind, I've always used about one tablespoon per pound. So for a 12 pound barrel I'd use 12 tablespoons, or maybe a little more. I use between six and eight tablespoons in my six pound barrels.
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Post by captbob on Dec 29, 2014 17:19:23 GMT -5
If you're happy then that's all that matters! I might recommend being happy with a lot less grit/polish along the way. I know there are tumbling "recipes" here on the forum, just don't have time to track them down. The Rock Shed sells grit/polish - I'd be leery of instructions that work in cups or pounds over table spoons.
You can certainly skip 1000 if you think the rocks are ready to polish.
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hornseeker
spending too much on rocks
Member since January 2014
Posts: 268
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Post by hornseeker on Dec 29, 2014 17:25:14 GMT -5
Cmon Cap'n.... You have more to say than that! (I'd like to hear more than that... how much grit do you use per XX of rock??) I want all you to know I am not presuming to know anything about this... just messing around... The recipe I posted was from here somewhere, and all the recipes I've seen were in TBSP not cups... its just easier to say 1 1/2 cups than 24 TBSPs... like saying my kids is 30 months old.. .;0) how about 2 1/2. hehe
So... how do I know if they are ready for polish?? Is it common for folks to skip 1000?
Also, It looks like I can buy 47-60 grit at Kingsley for about 2.86 per pound after shipping... vs the 80 grit for 1.75 per pound after shipping... Is there much benefit to running 47-60 over 80??? Will you get same results, just longer time in barrel? Anyone compare the two?
Thank you all!
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Post by pghram on Dec 29, 2014 17:43:44 GMT -5
Here is what I do & it works for me. I only do rotary. I have a TV 5 & I hate it.
I use 1 Tablespoon of grit/Tripoli/Tin Ox per lb of rock. I don't weigh anything, just 6 Tbs in a 6 lb barrel, 3 in a three.I use about 10 times as much 60/90 as the others (120/220 & 500F), because I like my stones to be more rounded. Even if you want a more natural shape, I would still do more that one course run. Starting w/ river rock should really help here.
Don't use too much water.
I use tripoli as a preposish because it works great & is much less expensive that finer grits.
I us Tin Ox because I always have, it works great, & I reuse it over & over to keep the cost down, but you do loose some in the process.
I let all of my grinds run for 10 days to let the grit break down. I clean & re-charge each time. I would probably do better to change the 60/90 more frequently. By letting them run 10 days I think I get an overlaping grind, so no gaps or large jumps. Also then, a stray grit isn't to much of an issue.
I run the polish for three weeks w/ lots of plastic pellets, I like a high shine.
Rich
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,158
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Post by jamesp on Dec 29, 2014 19:47:21 GMT -5
For agate I do 1 tablespoon coarse grit per pound, run a week about 6-8 times. So 6-8 weeks with 6-8 coarse grit changes. in some cases 10 -12 weeks and 10-12 coarse grit changes.
220 for a week--1 tablespoon per pound 500 for a week--3/4 tablespoon per pound polish for 7-10 days 1/2 tablespoon per pound
If there are non-agate rocks with the agates they are likely softer and will not shine as well. About all agates shine equally, jaspers can be softer for instance.
That schedule for a good mix of sizes. Nothing over a half pound, and only a few of those, better to keep the big rocks to a minimum(over 4 ounces).
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scottyh
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since November 2007
Posts: 181
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Post by scottyh on Dec 29, 2014 21:09:56 GMT -5
Hi, Just my two cents. But seems like your rough grind wasn't long enough. Personally I run 50 and 100 lb rough drums almost continually. These are run with a 10% grit to agate ratio . Every 7-10 days I do a wash up and only the perfectly formed stones come out. Sometimes this means that nothing is removed, sometimes 1or 2 stones sometimes it may be a pound of material. The key is patience, if you get stage one right then stages 2 & 3 are quick and easy. For stage 2 I use 10% grit to agate (220 grit) and run for 7-10 days followed by a 24 hr burnish in a thick soap slurry. Stage 3 is a 10% grit to agate mix (600 grit) followed by a burnish and rinse. The polish stage is run in a dedicated barrel using a wet tin oxide slurry for 7-14 days. The rpms for this stage are reduced by 30%. You should be able to re-use your polish if you have be scrupulously clean in your clean up between the 600 and polish. The secret to get a good result is to do the first stage properly and then get the cleaning between the 600 and polish done well.
Hope this helps.
Cheers Scott
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scottyh
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since November 2007
Posts: 181
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Post by scottyh on Dec 29, 2014 21:37:13 GMT -5
Hi, Just my two cents. But seems like your rough grind wasn't long enough. Personally I run 50 and 100 lb rough drums almost continually. These are run with a 10% grit to agate ratio . Every 7-10 days I do a wash up and only the perfectly formed stones come out. Sometimes this means that nothing is removed, sometimes 1or 2 stones sometimes it may be a pound of material. The key is patience, if you get stage one right then stages 2 & 3 are quick and easy. For stage 2 I use 10% grit to agate (220 grit) and run for 7-10 days followed by a 24 hr burnish in a thick soap slurry. Stage 3 is a 10% grit to agate mix (600 grit) followed by a burnish and rinse. The polish stage is run in a dedicated barrel using a wet tin oxide slurry for 7-14 days. The rpms for this stage are reduced by 30%. You should be able to re-use your polish if you have be scrupulously clean in your clean up between the 600 and polish. The secret to get a good result is to do the first stage properly and then get the cleaning between the 600 and polish done well.
Hope this helps.
Cheers Scott
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scottyh
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since November 2007
Posts: 181
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Post by scottyh on Dec 29, 2014 21:37:58 GMT -5
Hi, Just my two cents. But seems like your rough grind wasn't long enough. Personally I run 50 and 100 lb rough drums almost continually. These are run with a 10% grit to agate ratio . Every 7-10 days I do a wash up and only the perfectly formed stones come out. Sometimes this means that nothing is removed, sometimes 1or 2 stones sometimes it may be a pound of material. The key is patience, if you get stage one right then stages 2 & 3 are quick and easy. For stage 2 I use 10% grit to agate (220 grit) and run for 7-10 days followed by a 24 hr burnish in a thick soap slurry. Stage 3 is a 10% grit to agate mix (600 grit) followed by a burnish and rinse. The polish stage is run in a dedicated barrel using a wet tin oxide slurry for 7-14 days. The rpms for this stage are reduced by 30%. You should be able to re-use your polish if you have be scrupulously clean in your clean up between the 600 and polish. The secret to get a good result is to do the first stage properly and then get the cleaning between the 600 and polish done well.
Hope this helps.
Cheers Scott
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Post by Jugglerguy on Dec 29, 2014 23:18:11 GMT -5
Scott, you're up to six cents now.
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Post by snowmom on Dec 30, 2014 5:14:40 GMT -5
Lots of great input in this thread, watching with interest. Hornseeker, you mentioned having many chips and dings, I am guessing the river wear did most of this, I wonder if you included lots of smalls or pellets of some sort of fill to carry the grit to your larger pieces? I saw in the original recipe the comment about plastic pellets to cushion... but didn't understand if you included that? I'm a tumbling newbie too, and this thread is very informative. Thanks for the post. (Looking forward to pictures!)
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hornseeker
spending too much on rocks
Member since January 2014
Posts: 268
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Post by hornseeker on Dec 30, 2014 9:39:56 GMT -5
I took a few pics last night and will try and get them uploaded here in a bit...
I did not use plastic pellets, I did use a good amount of 1/2- gravel from my driveway, stuff that ranges from nearly sand up to 1/2 inch... then in the polish stage I put about 1 1/2 cups of really small gravel, like 1/4 inch that was used in the landscaping of my new home.
I can see I probably didn't do much with my rough grind... it was basically a loss. But, as I said, i wasn't looking for a perfect rough grind... What I also did, fairly obviously, was not polish long enough and though my rocks look "good" to me, when turned and viewed with the light "just right" I can see they are FAR from being "polished"...
Hey, Im not unhappy at ALL... this is just the beginning of a new life long hobby!!!
Thanks all,
Ernie
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