Intheswamp
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Post by Intheswamp on Nov 3, 2015 10:09:14 GMT -5
I'm trying to figure out some pvc barrel sizes and want to pick your brains (those that still have them, I'd pick mine but... ) Maybe this is a <duh> question but you're dealing with a <duh> guy here. Here are the coarse stage scenarios: (1.) 10 pounds of hard agates, pet wood, etc., that are pretty well river/beach worn, may be odd shaped, small pits, etc. The barrel is filled to 75% full. Once these are tumbled to a point that they are ready to move on to stage 2 how much of the original 10 pounds will be left? (2.) 10 pounds of hard agates, pet wood, or whatever., that are crushed, hammer broken, rough stones. Same thing as above...barrel is filled to 75% full. How many pounds of rock will be left when they're ready for stage 2? I now there are a lot of variables that I don' t even know about, but something to get me in the ballpark will help me in deciding what length to build my 6" pvc barrels. I'm trying to arrive at a finished coarse tumbled volume that is a little over multiples of 4 pounds so as to feed my Lot-O. I figure soft rocks will come later and I'll cross that (rock)bridge when I come to it. Of course, any input on soft rocks or anything else is appreciated. Thanks for your input!
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Post by captbob on Nov 3, 2015 10:14:48 GMT -5
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Post by captbob on Nov 3, 2015 10:35:27 GMT -5
Cliff Notes answer -
It all depends on your culling the crap rocks along the way. You want "a little over multiples of 4 pounds" at the end of the coarse run.
Very attentive culling and you could get 8 pounds out when starting with 10 pounds. To make culling less critical, I would start with 12 pound loads to pretty much guarantee 8+ pounds of rocks ready to move on. Culling still required, but you have a good buffer by starting with 12 pounds.
honey do list calling... *poof*
ETA: culling = pulling out the "crap" and adding more replacement rocks each clean out.
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Intheswamp
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Post by Intheswamp on Nov 3, 2015 18:05:31 GMT -5
Thanks, Bob. Sounds like a 20-33 percent reduction in volume. via grinding and culling. I had been figuring a 35% volume reduction (thinking worse case scenarios, I guess)so what you've said falls right along with that. "*poof*" I hope you weren't turned into a frog by being slow to get on that honey do list!!!!
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quartz
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Post by quartz on Nov 4, 2015 0:20:59 GMT -5
I've found every batch to react differently in the tumbling process, so I build barrels to a standard size so as to make it easy to measure the amount of grit I use with each run. I like a one gallon capacity 6" barrel, use one pound of grit [one cup] per run, with about 3/4 that much for polish. I do reuse the polish. A gallon barrel will take about 12lb. of rock, and I normally see a 25-30% reduction.
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Intheswamp
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Post by Intheswamp on Nov 4, 2015 9:42:26 GMT -5
That makes sense to build to a standard size, Larry. How long of a pipe section are you using for the 1-gallon barrels?
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quartz
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Post by quartz on Nov 4, 2015 23:19:06 GMT -5
Due to a difference in material availability, I build barrels with flat ends. You will have to measure the volume of the end caps you are using, excluding the distance the pipe intrudes into the ends, decide on a finished volume, then calculate the length of pipe to use.
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Intheswamp
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Post by Intheswamp on Nov 5, 2015 9:02:38 GMT -5
Yeah, I'd like to build the barrels with flat ends but I don't see an easy way of doing it. The rounded pvc caps seem quick and easy. I've measured all the parts...pvc pipe will slide 3 inches into the rounded end cap leaving roughly 1.5 inches of "domed" space beyond the pipe. The coupling and 6"/4" bushing will add a bit of space...I'll have to meaure that. Basically the fittings will add 6" to the overall length of the pipe (this includes 1-1/2" for the 4" opening/mouth)...but add less than 3 inches of usable space. The big "space waster" is the bushing at 3" thick, but that, I guess, is the cost of doing business. When I get some free time I'm going to be finalizing pulley placement and getting the roller system in place. Then attach motor and belts (after I figure out what belts I need). Somewhere during that I hope to build the barrels. Do you line your barrels or leave them bare? I've got plenty of inner tube rubber to work with and thinking about lining them.
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quartz
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Post by quartz on Nov 5, 2015 23:15:47 GMT -5
I build them out of 6" electrical conduit PVC, much thicker. Never tried lining one, never saw a need to. I know people on the forum have lined their barrels, maybe some opinions will surface.
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Intheswamp
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Post by Intheswamp on Nov 6, 2015 8:06:35 GMT -5
Hmm, the 6" white pvc that I've got seems pretty thick...I'd say around 1/4" but I'll need to measure to be sure. Looking up 6" electrical conduit I'm seeing .28" wall thickness for sch40 and .432" for sch80...are you using sch80?
The liner I put into the small 4" barrel seems to be holding up well, but it's only been through a couple of coarse grit loads so really has not been long-term tested. As I've mentioned, I've got plenty of rubber to use...it's just the adhesive that might be a limiting factor. The ShoeGoo seems to be working well, but to line a couple of 6" barrels of any length and to get really good surface coverage on both the rubber and inside of the pipe would take quiet a bit of it. I'm thinking of looking for something else in some of the new caulking tube adhesives...more coverage for less $$$ hopefully.
On another topic... The piece of 6" sch40 pvc that I got is pretty scuffed/scratched up. I figure on washing it up good and sanding it a bit to smooth the mating surfaces. Do you think there will be an issue with the scuffed up pipe sealing/welding to the new fittings?
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quartz
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Post by quartz on Nov 6, 2015 23:22:53 GMT -5
I use the sched. 80. Unless the scratches are enough to have raised edges along them, it will seal. Don't skimp on the glue.
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Intheswamp
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Post by Intheswamp on Nov 6, 2015 23:42:56 GMT -5
I probably need to pick up some more glue before I start building the barrels, I've only got the small cans I picked up when I built the 4" one...there's a lot more acreage to cover with these 6" ones! The pipe has some pretty good scratches but I think it'll be ok once I smooth it down a bit and pile the glue on.
Do you think your sch80 helps with deadening the tumbling noise? Seems that it would. I'm using sch40 but will most likely line it with rubber.
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quartz
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Post by quartz on Nov 7, 2015 0:20:56 GMT -5
Logic would say yes, the heavier and a bit softer pipe is quieter, but I have no basis for comparison.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 7, 2015 7:17:48 GMT -5
I wish I could have found sch 40 6 inch flat faced caps. Main reason is they are hard to repair. The center of the cap is the first place to wear thru on my PVC barrels. Some 8 inch barrel caps have flat faces. When the center wears thru I simply glued and screwed a sheet of sch 80 sheet to the end. The 6 inch barrels all have rounded caps. So all new barrels are longer, so I can saw the cap off and glue another cap on. Yes the barrel is shorter by 2-3 inches, but still serves well. They last 2-3 years full-time before sawing and replacing is required. New cap is only $12. 6 inch PVC barrels less than 18 inches get a cup of grit. The ones larger get a cup and a half of grit. Not precision but effective. The barrel at upper right has a gap of pipe long enough to allow sawing cap off and gluing another on. The barrel at upper center was too short to saw off.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 7, 2015 7:38:07 GMT -5
The behemoth 8 inch barrel in above photo got cut into two barrels. That was the biggest barrel, with a 6 inch opening for large rocks. Left half reduced further in length before coupling/bushing glued on. Just wanted smaller.
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Intheswamp
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Post by Intheswamp on Nov 7, 2015 7:39:58 GMT -5
Jim, have you considered lining only the cap with rubber inner tube? I used the pipe to draw a circle on the rubber...cut it a slight bit bigger than what was drawn on the rubber. Cut a thin pie wedge out of the round piece of rubber to allow it to contour to the pipe end...I cut a very thin wedge out to start with, tested it, and trimmed a little more until I got a good fit where the edges of the wedge closed up against when pressed into the cap. Slather ShoeGoo on both the rubber and fitting and put together pressing it down good and firm. The fit was very good on this barrel...just below the "stop ring" where the pipe stops at. A piece of skidder tube would work really nice in your big barrels. I let my barrel liner cure for 3-4 days before using. Only running coarse grit in them I wouldn't be worried about hiding grit.
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Intheswamp
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Post by Intheswamp on Nov 7, 2015 7:47:59 GMT -5
Good idea to make the barrels long enough to be able to cut the end off and leave enough pipe length to glue on at least one more end cap. I think that if I decide not to line the barrels that I'll at least line the end cap being as that appears to be the biggest wear point.
Cutting the pipe with the circular-saw...I guess you simply mark where to cut and work around it. Seems like laying the pipe against a low step or curb wold help hold it in place while it's cut.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 7, 2015 7:54:34 GMT -5
I tried silicon rubber and adding PVC glued and screwed to the inside of the rounded end caps BEFORE gluing it on. The abuse within made me give up. So I am happy just cutting the cap off and gluing another on.
I tried about 3 methods and failed every time. So I gave up and will not try anymore ha. Not to be closed minded, but burned out on this issue. At least I am guaranteed I can replace the cap 3 times on the new barrels. I will be drawing Social Security before they are trashed LOL.
You will find 15 to 20 pounds of rock in the 6 inch barrels are pretty abusive on any internal 'attachments'. I never would have thought.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 7, 2015 7:58:24 GMT -5
You can wrap a piece of tape around the pipe to mark the cut. Tape it, then roll it across a smooth surface. You will see a wobble in the tape if it is not right. Lay the pipe down on a flat surface and roll it as you saw it. slow and easy.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 7, 2015 8:01:20 GMT -5
Yes, the only place on those barrels that need to be bolstered from the inside is that darn cap. I even sat the cap down and filled it with an inch of high dollar silicon from a caulk gun before gluing. The problem with PVC is that no one wants to stick to it. NO ONE.
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