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Post by amygdule on Nov 10, 2017 22:18:56 GMT -5
Double thanks amygdule. I get it now. It would be 60 Hz X 60 sec = 3600/min. Then likely reducing the voltage or basically the power, but not the vibration rate. If you care to learn more you can search the patent # at the US Patent Office website. In the patent it states that the rheostat controls the Amplitude of the vibration.
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Post by HankRocks on Nov 10, 2017 23:00:24 GMT -5
The Rheostat is basically a variable resistor, as the resistance in the rheostat rises the current to the vibration coil decreases and therefore the power to the coil decreases. The vibration rate stays the same as the frequency does not change, it's the amplitude of the vibration that increases, more power - stronger vibration, less power - weaker vibration. Always the same rate, 3600/min
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 11, 2017 5:50:41 GMT -5
The Rheostat is basically a variable resistor, as the resistance in the rheostat rises the current to the vibration coil decreases and therefore the power to the coil decreases. The vibration rate stays the same as the frequency does not change, it's the amplitude of the vibration that increases, more power - stronger vibration, less power - weaker vibration. Always the same rate, 3600/min Double thanks amygdule. I get it now. It would be 60 Hz X 60 sec = 3600/min. Then likely reducing the voltage or basically the power, but not the vibration rate. If you care to learn more you can search the patent # at the US Patent Office website. In the patent it states that the rheostat controls the Amplitude of the vibration. Yes, deducted that. To change the vibration rate would be expensive and more involved electronics. You guys have confirmed the vibration rate. Leaning toward theory that is 3600 vibrations per minute is on the violent side for softer rocks. That is 60 reversals per second. Whether amplitude is low or high, that is a lot of reversals in a short time. Not sure about Lot-O, but most vibratory tumblers vibrate at a 3450 motor speed or 60Hz (3600/min). the ratio of forces of 1725/min and 3600/min: 3600 X 3600 = 12,960,000 1725 X 1725 = 2,980,000 12,960/2980 = 4.3. So by simple ratio comparison you could deduct that a vibe at 3600 verses vibe at 1725 has 4.3 times more impact force on the rocks. ****For a given displacement.... As the displacement increases the forces increase. Most vibes probably don't vary too much in displacement. If the vibe hopper was displacing 1 inch at only 1200 times per minute it would probably turn your rocks into little pieces. That would be 20 times per second traveling one 1 inch, basically a rock beater. So a 1725 RPM motor can be used to get lower vibrations. By driving a counterbalance shaft and fooling with pulley ratios one could have 1000 to 2000 vibes per minute easily.
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Post by Garage Rocker on Nov 11, 2017 6:28:10 GMT -5
Oh wow, my head hurts. Think I'll go back to bed and sleep it off. The sun's not even up jamesp and you're already in Bill Nye mode.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 11, 2017 6:56:36 GMT -5
Oh wow, my head hurts. Think I'll go back to bed and sleep it off. The sun's not even up jamesp and you're already in Bill Nye mode. Got hunters over. Wife out town. Going out in the woods shortly. All up early this AM. First 10 minutes hunting yesterday Friday
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Post by HankRocks on Nov 11, 2017 7:47:22 GMT -5
I would think that you still might need to lower the vibration amplitude by decreasing the counter-balance weight. Even though you lower the RPM's , you still have the same force being applied on each single vibration. In effect the counter-balance weight is your rheostat, decreasing the striking power or amplitude of each vibration. For softer rocks that would be needed.
Of course that's also roles of plastic pellets or ceramics or thick slurry or a barrel loaded to 85%, deaden the individual impacts. Those methods become the impact modulator, especially in the Rotary tumblers that are not as easy to dial down.
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Post by HankRocks on Nov 11, 2017 7:49:26 GMT -5
....Stronger springs would also lower the vibration amplitude.
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Post by Garage Rocker on Nov 11, 2017 7:50:38 GMT -5
Oh wow, my head hurts. Think I'll go back to bed and sleep it off. The sun's not even up jamesp and you're already in Bill Nye mode. Got hunters over. Wife out town. Going out in the woods shortly. All up early this AM. First 10 minutes hunting yesterday Friday Not too shabby for a few minutes out. Did your guests have such luck?
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Wooferhound
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Post by Wooferhound on Nov 11, 2017 9:02:06 GMT -5
For those vibratory tumblers that don't use a motor and are tied to the line frequency, I think a diode inline with the AC supply would make the vibrations half as strong. Don't do this to an AC motor, you could kill it.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 11, 2017 9:51:53 GMT -5
I would think that you still might need to lower the vibration amplitude by decreasing the counter-balance weight. Even though you lower the RPM's , you still have the same force being applied on each single vibration. In effect the counter-balance weight is your rheostat, decreasing the striking power or amplitude of each vibration. For softer rocks that would be needed. Of course that's also roles of plastic pellets or ceramics or thick slurry or a barrel loaded to 85%, deaden the individual impacts. Those methods become the impact modulator, especially in the Rotary tumblers that are not as easy to dial down. Yes Henry, giant counterweights would beat the rocks to pieces. I did want to make a point that high reversal speeds quickly effect impact even with a small amplitude. I would use plastics and organics but my vibe separates them from the rocks. Frustrating.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 11, 2017 10:03:59 GMT -5
....Stronger springs would also lower the vibration amplitude. Yes they would. as would a damper. Next vibe I will attack both lower frequency and lower amplitude AND use the narrower Mini Sonic hoppers with better mixing. I do like the egg shaped Lot-O barrel for better mixing(you would think) as opposed to a long hopper like the 14 pound Vibrasonic. The Mini sonic and the Vibrasonic both have perfectly round hopper profiles. I like that for the least friction to allow rock rotation with minimum frequency. I would like to use a 800 to 2000 RPM DC motor too. With one of those variable speed controllers Wooferhound posted. That would allow finding natural frequencies and tune the thing. Plus an adjustable counterbalance shaft !! Getting complicated.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 11, 2017 10:24:47 GMT -5
Got hunters over. Wife out town. Going out in the woods shortly. All up early this AM. First 10 minutes hunting yesterday Friday Not too shabby for a few minutes out. Did your guests have such luck? These hunters are suburbanites I grew up with in the city Randy. They are not the most experienced hunters. Me the one that moved to the country 34 years ago hunt a lot. So I usually score better than these guys. Bob had a big buck deer walk up on him from his right side 30 yards away last night. Hard for any hunter to swing the gun for a righthand shot. Regardless, he experienced a big adrenaline rush. Thats most of it. He was pumped. Then he watched a smaller buck chase does for 10 minutes. We don't shoot them. He texted that he saw 3 does this morn, 3 more than I saw. It got real windy this morning, not good for the hunt. Friend of a friend shot this one with a bow not 12 miles from downtown Atlanta. They are called urban bucks. "city deer". Living where the high dollar 5 and 10 acre estates are, but basically suburbia.
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Post by Garage Rocker on Nov 11, 2017 10:45:50 GMT -5
Not too shabby for a few minutes out. Did your guests have such luck? These hunters are suburbanites I grew up with in the city Randy. They are not the most experienced hunters. Me the one that moved to the country 34 years ago hunt a lot. So I usually score better than these guys. Bob had a big buck deer walk up on him from his right side 30 yards away last night. Hard for any hunter to swing the gun for a righthand shot. Regardless, he experienced a big adrenaline rush. Thats most of it. He was pumped. Then he watched a smaller buck chase does for 10 minutes. We don't shoot them. He texted that he saw 3 does this morn, 3 more than I saw. It got real windy this morning, not good for the hunt. Friend of a friend shot this one with a bow not 12 miles from downtown Atlanta. They are called urban bucks. "city deer". Living where the high dollar 5 and 10 acre estates are, but basically suburbia. That's not a deer, that's a cow with a heavy rack! Monster!!!
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 11, 2017 11:05:15 GMT -5
These hunters are suburbanites I grew up with in the city Randy. They are not the most experienced hunters. Me the one that moved to the country 34 years ago hunt a lot. So I usually score better than these guys. Bob had a big buck deer walk up on him from his right side 30 yards away last night. Hard for any hunter to swing the gun for a righthand shot. Regardless, he experienced a big adrenaline rush. Thats most of it. He was pumped. Then he watched a smaller buck chase does for 10 minutes. We don't shoot them. He texted that he saw 3 does this morn, 3 more than I saw. It got real windy this morning, not good for the hunt. Friend of a friend shot this one with a bow not 12 miles from downtown Atlanta. They are called urban bucks. "city deer". Living where the high dollar 5 and 10 acre estates are, but basically suburbia. That's not a deer, that's a cow with a heavy rack! Monster!!! Thank well fertilized lawns and shrubs. They grow faster/bigger eating landscape plants and well fertilized grass no doubt.
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Wooferhound
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Post by Wooferhound on Nov 11, 2017 11:19:08 GMT -5
I would think that you still might need to lower the vibration amplitude by decreasing the counter-balance weight. Even though you lower the RPM's , you still have the same force being applied on each single vibration. In effect the counter-balance weight is your rheostat, decreasing the striking power or amplitude of each vibration. For softer rocks that would be needed. Of course that's also roles of plastic pellets or ceramics or thick slurry or a barrel loaded to 85%, deaden the individual impacts. Those methods become the impact modulator, especially in the Rotary tumblers that are not as easy to dial down. >> I did want to make a point that high reversal speeds quickly effect impact even with a small amplitude. << In Physics you will learn that when you double the frequency, you have twice the energy.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 11, 2017 13:13:04 GMT -5
>> I did want to make a point that high reversal speeds quickly effect impact even with a small amplitude. << In Physics you will learn that when you double the frequency, you have twice the energy. I'm going to tell that to my wife.
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Post by amygdule on Nov 11, 2017 13:30:32 GMT -5
Nice looking deer jamesp If you have any more interest in the Mini Sonic, United States Patent 3,978,623"DETAILED DESCRIPTION OF THE PREFERRED EMBODIMENT The apparatus itself is relatively straight forward in structure and, as shown in FIGS. 1 and 2, includes a base assembly having a lower rectangular base plate 10 supported at its four corners on elastomeric insulators 11 secured by bolts 12. The heads of the latter secure clips 13 to the top face of the base plate 10 which in turn retain the lower ends of upstanding coil springs 14. The upper ends of the springs 14 resiliently and floatingly support an upper rectangular mounting plate 15 to which they are secured in similar manner by clips 16 and bolts 17. Across one end of the base assembly mounting plate 15 is located the lower end of a power bar 20 which is flexibly secured thereto between two pairs of elastomeric buttons 21 by bolts 22. The bar 20, which is of relatively stiff, magnetic material, extends first outwardly over the end of the plate 15 and then curves reversely back over and above the plate 15 parallel thereto, its upper end terminating about half way toward the other end of the plate 15. Beneath the bar 20 is disposed a suitable electromagnetic coil 23 about an upright laminated core 24 bolted at 25 along its lower edge in a U-bracket 26 welded to the mounting plate 15, the upper edge of the core 24 forming a suitable air gap with and beneath the bar 20. The coil 23 is energized from a typical 110 VAC, 60 Hz power source through an on-off switch and a suitable half-wave rectifying diode and rheostat (not shown) of conventional nature. Hence, when energized, the coil 23 during one-half of each cycle pulls the bar 20 downwardly, rocking it about the buttons 21, while during the next half of the cycle, owing to the current rectification, the bar 20 is freed to return to its normal position, the rheostat serving to control the amplitude of its downward movement. The latter movement of the bar 20 is constrained in turn by its compression of a coil spring 30 interposed between the mounting plate 15 and the upper end of the bar 20 while its upward movement is constrained by the tension of a second coil spring 31 within the spring 30. The lower end of the spring 31 is adjustably secured by the head of a bolt 32 to the plate 15 and the upper end by the head of a bolt 33 through an elastomeric grommet 34 seated in an aperture in the upper end of the bar 20 (see FIG. 3). By adjusting the bolt 32, and hence the tension of the spring 31, the upward or "free" movement of the bar 20 can be controlled as well as the initial air gap between it and the core 24." The numbers are references to the diagrams.
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Post by pauls on Nov 11, 2017 15:16:00 GMT -5
What a lot of gobbledegook.
"the upper ends of the springs resiliently and floatingly" etc. Sounds likea description of something on a chinese website.
Interestingly it does say its got a half wave rectifier in there.
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Post by amygdule on Nov 12, 2017 12:27:24 GMT -5
What a lot of gobbledegook. "the upper ends of the springs resiliently and floatingly" etc. Sounds likea description of something on a chinese website. Interestingly it does say its got a half wave rectifier in there. Reading that patent made the "PREFERRED EMBODIMENT" between my ears vibrate like crazy. Running the Mini Sonic in my living space for several months was really getting on my nerves. More pictures of Australian Agates would help me resonate.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Nov 12, 2017 12:50:46 GMT -5
What a lot of gobbledegook. "the upper ends of the springs resiliently and floatingly" etc. Sounds likea description of something on a chinese website. Interestingly it does say its got a half wave rectifier in there. Reading that patent made the "PREFERRED EMBODIMENT" between my ears vibrate like crazy. Running the Mini Sonic in my living space for several months was really getting on my nerves. More pictures of Australian Agates would help me resonate. Wow, like you and pauls, blown away by that patent. It made little sense to me. Vibratory machines can have some serious complexity. I am confused as to what the patent holder is trying to say other than explicitly clear description. The patent office does require explicitly clear descriptions of your product. Wooferhound, notice they did incorporate a half wave rectifier. Maybe they are trying to simulate a version/mix of one of these waveforms: "The coil 23 is energized from a typical 110 VAC, 60 Hz power source through an on-off switch and a suitable half-wave rectifying diode and rheostat (not shown) of conventional nature. Hence, when energized, the coil 23 during one-half of each cycle pulls the bar 20 downwardly, rocking it about the buttons 21, while during the next half of the cycle, owing to the current rectification, the bar 20 is freed to return to its normal position, the rheostat serving to control the amplitude of its downward movement." That seems to create a saw tooth action, fast down and maybe slow up. Just a guess..... A spinning counterbalance should generate perfect sinusoidal movement which should be gentler.
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