Fossilman
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2009
Posts: 20,687
|
Post by Fossilman on Mar 28, 2018 10:18:19 GMT -5
I save all my slurry from the 1st stage of tumbling,liquid and all....Keep it in a gallon jug... On 1st stage I add my rocks (mixed media also, multiple sizes), about 80% full, add my fresh 60/90 grit, than the used slurry (fill to 3/4 full).....Tumble away for two week, never looking at the process at all... Never had any problems yet....
|
|
|
Post by Jugglerguy on Mar 28, 2018 13:52:18 GMT -5
I have never heard of using borax I the first stage. I use it in later stages in a vibratory tumbler. I clean out my barrels weekly and almost never have bubbles by that time. I wouldn’t worry about it if I did have bubbles then. Personally I don’t use kitty litter as a thickener either. I find that it makes cleanouts a pain. I would use 4 or 5 tablespoons of grit in a tumbler of that size as Bill recommended. I like to keep things simple. Most abrasive process use slurry for higher efficiency. I suggest newbies and veterans alike consider the benefits of slurry additives. For the benefit of better grinding rates from the point abrasive is added to the barrel. Simple not always better. It is simpler to not change the oil in your car for 20,000 miles but long term effects not so good. Soaps and anything that causes foam in a sealed rotary barrel is probably the wrong way to go.(Borax in a rotary for instance) Hey Jim, this is one area I just don't know if I agree with you. The problem is, I know you really think critically about this stuff and experiment a lot, so I'm not sure that you're wrong either. I'm going to lay out my point of view and I'd like you to point out the error in my thinking if you can. I've read your point of view on this topic several times but maybe I've missed something. Ok, first I use rubber barrels at a slower speed (like most newbies) and you use hard barrels running at faster speeds (I think). I'm pretty sure you run at various speeds. I'm not sure how much difference this makes. I clean my barrels at regular one week intervals, except Petoskey stones, but that's not a common rock to tumble, so I'm talking about tumbling the hard stuff here, like jaspers and agates. My goal is to shape my rocks as quickly as possible with the least effort on my part. At the end of a week of typical grinding, my grit is used up and my rocks have changed for the better. My slurry is typically pretty watery, which makes it easy to rinse off. My thinking is that if the grit is used up, then it has done its job. When I've tried adding kitty litter, which I have done on several occasions, my slurry is very thick and it takes more rinsing to get the rocks clean. Water disposal is a pain, especially in winter months, so producing more waste water is a hassle. I have not noticed that my rocks are shaped faster when using kitty litter, but then again, I'm not actually doing any measurements to be sure one way or the other. With a thick slurry it's more difficult to see if the grit is all used up. Sometimes kitty litter has made my slurry so thick that the rocks don't even move properly. They just sort of all clump together and thump around in the barrel. My fear is that in this case, the kitty litter actually inhibits movement and therefore grinding. I think that for new tumblers, this is added confusion. I feel that a thick slurry can indicate that a lot of rock has been ground away. For example, my petoskey stones produce a thick slurry with no added clay. The slurry is thick due to rock dust being created. This is obvious with Petoskey stones because they change shape at a much more rapid pace than other rocks. When adding kitty litter or clay, the thick slurry is not necessarily produced from rock dust, but from the clay itself. Thick slurry does not necessarily indicate a lot of grinding took place. Another thing that bothers me is tkvancil's experiment a few years ago. He actually measured the weight of his rocks after tumbling with fresh water and grit vs. recharging his barrels. This is very similar to adding kitty litter. Instead of kitty litter, he was using the old slurry to thicken things up. Ken found that recharging made no difference. There is a possibility that kitty litter causes the grit to be used up more quickly, but I'm not planning to do clean outs more than once a week just because that fits into my schedule better. To recap, I do not add kitty litter because it makes clean outs more difficult and my grit seems to be used up either way.
|
|
|
Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Mar 28, 2018 14:53:46 GMT -5
My stage one process is pretty much identical to Jugglerguy's. I have never tried kitty litter or any other thickeners in stage one so I have nothing to compare to but I have never been disappointed in my results without it. Every week all of my 46/70 is used up and I am able to pull out enough rock for stage two to keep my loto running. I also do all of my clean outs in a basement year round so the thinner the better when it comes to rinsing them off and lugging buckets of water up the stairs to dispose of. This stage one step seems to be the one most people have differing opinions about. I see photos of good results on both sides of the fence though. Chuck
|
|
|
Post by aDave on Mar 28, 2018 16:41:40 GMT -5
Rob Jugglerguy and Chuck Drummond Island Rocks, great points. I use a thickener of sorts (old dry slurry), but I'm not adding it to try to make my coarse stage more efficient. Like you guys, my grit is basically used up when I do my weekly cleanouts (QT66), so something must be going right. Perhaps if I was looking to recharge after a few days, maybe grind efficiency might be an issue, but I like washing and looking at the rocks each time I open a barrel. I never liked cleaning the lid rim on the barrel, so opening once a week is perfectly fine for me. The reason I use the old slurry is to somewhat jumpstart the slurry making process instead of simply using plain water. Even though the barrels are properly loaded at the right level, I am looking for that jumpstarted slurry to help cushion the rocks more to try to reduce bruising and other impact related issues. I figured that having a slurry right out of the gate would be more beneficial to soften things a bit, rather than water alone. I've never done any testing to compare, but it seems to make some sense...at least to me. That, of course, only refers to the first stage. I use plastic pellets from there, so cushioning comes from them through the remainder of the process. If course, as you know, I am only referring to working with rotaries and not a vibe for finishing. FWIW, my slurry consistency at the end of the week is about like gravy. Not too thick and not too thin.
|
|
|
Post by Jugglerguy on Mar 28, 2018 17:00:10 GMT -5
Rob Jugglerguy and Chuck Drummond Island Rocks, great points. I use a thickener of sorts (old dry slurry), but I'm not adding it to try to make my coarse stage more efficient. Like you guys, my grit is basically used up when I do my weekly cleanouts (QT66), so something must be going right. Perhaps if I was looking to recharge after a few days, maybe grind efficiency might be an issue, but I like washing and looking at the rocks each time I open a barrel. I never liked cleaning the lid rim on the barrel, so opening once a week is perfectly fine for me. The reason I use the old slurry is to somewhat jumpstart the slurry making process instead of simply using plain water. Even though the barrels are properly loaded at the right level, I am looking for that jumpstarted slurry to help cushion the rocks more to try to reduce bruising and other impact related issues. I figured that having a slurry right out of the gate would be more beneficial to soften things a bit, rather than water alone. I've never done any testing to compare, but it seems to make some sense...at least to me. That, of course, only refers to the first stage. I use plastic pellets from there, so cushioning comes from them through the remainder of the process. If course, as you know, I am only referring to working with rotaries and not a vibe for finishing. FWIW, my slurry consistency at the end of the week is about like gravy. Not too thick and not too thin. I have used old slurry to thicken the slurry to protect or cushion the rocks. That makes sense to me. Most rocks don't require that though.
|
|
|
Post by grumpybill on Mar 28, 2018 17:24:19 GMT -5
Put some SiC in a jar of plain water and shake it up, then let it sit for a few minutes. The grit settles to the bottom very quickly. Now, fill a jar with slurry and add the same amount of SiC, shake it and let it sit. The grit stays suspended for a long time.
I think that without a thickener a good portion of the grit settles in the barrel, rather than grinding on the stones, until the slurry starts to build. I could be wrong...maybe the agitation keeps it suspended? Sometimes I wish I had barrels that allowed me to build a clear lid.
|
|
|
Post by Jugglerguy on Mar 28, 2018 17:30:07 GMT -5
I have a clear lid for my Thumlers tumbler. I watched stones roll, but I can't really put grit in and expect the lid to stay clear for long. I always figured that the rolling action would keep the grit moving around. I understand your point though.
|
|
|
Post by grumpybill on Mar 28, 2018 17:40:00 GMT -5
Aw, c'mon...sacrifice your lid. Enquiring minds want to know. <laughing>
|
|
|
Post by aDave on Mar 28, 2018 19:17:15 GMT -5
I have used old slurry to thicken the slurry to protect or cushion the rocks. That makes sense to me. Most rocks don't require that though. True, but as I look at it, if some rocks benefit (the ones that are most sensitive), then all rocks benefit. It makes it easy to take the high road and address the most delicate which takes care of everything.
|
|
jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,176
Member is Online
|
Post by jamesp on Mar 28, 2018 23:16:16 GMT -5
Plain and simple. If you do clean outs on one week intervals and your abrasive is used up then there is no problem. If you use straight 46 or 30 you will likely have abrasive left over after a week if not using a slurry additive. I certainly have better grind times adding 30 or 46 mid week with week end clean outs. The 30 or 46 is gone in 3 days, the grind rate is likely doubled by adding abrasive mid week when adding thickener on weekends. It is all preference.
It should be made clear for the benefit of the hobby that newbies and vets can speed their grind by adding thickener. Many burn out on this hobby because of the long 1st stage.
Special situations like sensitive rocks, any rocks> one pound, glass, higher rotation speeds do benefit from the protective slurry.
|
|
saxplayer
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since March 2018
Posts: 1,327
|
Post by saxplayer on Apr 1, 2018 17:24:07 GMT -5
Quick update: I added a bit of kitty litter on day 4. Today is a full week. I opened the tumbler (45-c, 4.5lb) and there was a much better slurry, with bubbles on top and not too thick. Some grit did remain in the bottom of the barrel, but it (maybe) felt broken down some? I'm not experienced enough to tell quite yet. Despite this I decided to wash it all off (tried to save the slurry for next time to start with instead of water) and then I moved all the rock to my new lortone 6lb. I had to add about 10 small-medium sized carnelian agates which are a bit more river tumbled as well as a handful of small mixed rock from therockshed.com Below is a picture after 1 week. Next time I will find some similar rocks (start) and will be able to compare better at 1 week. Sorry! Newbie mistake again. I used 6 tbl 46-70 grit in the 6lb as well as prob 2-3 tbl kitty litter and water. Essentially re-started stage 1 but now in the 6lb and not the 4.5lb. Thoughts? Thanks all! Grant After 1 week: 1 week - moved to 6lb by grantbleeker
EDIT: Added a video of my QT-66 running. It seems like the motor is hotter than I'd expect. I can touch it without taking my finger off, but I kind of want to. That seem right? Video to show rotational speed to see if this seems right for the 6lb? Thanks in advance. Lortone QT66 running by grantbleeker
|
|
|
Post by aDave on Apr 1, 2018 20:46:20 GMT -5
Can I add some input without being too blunt? Just let your stuff roll. You seem to be looking for weekly (and maybe daily) changes to what you have going. I really think you're overthinking this and are looking at tumbling in a microcosm. This really isn't rocket science, yet I somehow get the feeling you think it is. I'm not trying to be harsh in any fashion, but I think you're overthinking everything. I offer my input as one who only uses rotary tumblers. I'll offer you this: Start rolling your first stage and let things go until you are happy with the shape of all of your rocks. That is really the final factor. It doesn't matter what's happening inbetween stages...you just have to be happy with the rocks at the end of every stage. They will finish at different intervals, so you may want to backfill at the end of weekly cleanouts with new rough in the coarse stage. Yes, WEEKLY cleanouts. Unless you are not looking for smooth rocks, your first coarse will take weeks, if not months to complete. Heck, I wish I still had your impatience...I just did a cleanout after 3 weeks due to travel and other issues. Once you have enough rocks to move onto the medium stage, things will shorten up a bit. However, the way you choose to handle the subsequent stages may still result in another 6 weeks or so if you are only dealing with a rotary. After coarse, I do one week in medium, two weeks in fine, and three weeks in polish. That's just me.
|
|
saxplayer
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since March 2018
Posts: 1,327
|
Post by saxplayer on Apr 1, 2018 22:39:20 GMT -5
Can I add some input without being too blunt? Just let your stuff roll. You seem to be looking for weekly (and maybe daily) changes to what you have going. I really think you're overthinking this and are looking at tumbling in a microcosm. This really isn't rocket science, yet I somehow get the feeling you think it is. I'm not trying to be harsh in any fashion, but I think you're overthinking everything. I offer my input as one who only uses rotary tumblers. I'll offer you this: Start rolling your first stage and let things go until you are happy with the shape of all of your rocks. That is really the final factor. It doesn't matter what's happening inbetween stages...you just have to be happy with the rocks at the end of every stage. They will finish at different intervals, so you may want to backfill at the end of weekly cleanouts with new rough in the coarse stage. Yes, WEEKLY cleanouts. Unless you are not looking for smooth rocks, your first coarse will take weeks, if not months to complete. Heck, I wish I still had your impatience...I just did a cleanout after 3 weeks due to travel and other issues. Once you have enough rocks to move onto the medium stage, things will shorten up a bit. However, the way you choose to handle the subsequent stages may still result in another 6 weeks or so if you are only dealing with a rotary. After coarse, I do one week in medium, two weeks in fine, and three weeks in polish. That's just me. I’m cool with blunt I know it’s a long process I’m just after input if I’m doing thing a correctly. I hate to let it go 1 week and check it to find I could have adjusted it correctly on day 2 of that week (if that makes sense). I put it back to grind for another week. I’m expecting 3-4 weeks for my first stage here based on results. We will see. I’m mostly trying to check if my new 6lb tumbler and 6tbl grit seems reasonable and show my progress along the way for help (for myself and maybe others). I really have zero impatience here. I expect it to be awhile. Looking for tips on the way. I am a very analytical person and it’s at the core of my person and my job so it’s maybe not shocking to you I’m posting a lot about it. It’s how I learn and process. I don’t mind straight shooting or bluntness at all. Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by aDave on Apr 2, 2018 13:02:09 GMT -5
I’m cool with blunt I know it’s a long process I’m just after input if I’m doing thing a correctly. I hate to let it go 1 week and check it to find I could have adjusted it correctly on day 2 of that week (if that makes sense). I put it back to grind for another week. I’m expecting 3-4 weeks for my first stage here based on results. We will see. I’m mostly trying to check if my new 6lb tumbler and 6tbl grit seems reasonable and show my progress along the way for help (for myself and maybe others). I really have zero impatience here. I expect it to be awhile. Looking for tips on the way. I am a very analytical person and it’s at the core of my person and my job so it’s maybe not shocking to you I’m posting a lot about it. It’s how I learn and process. I don’t mind straight shooting or bluntness at all. Thanks. I'm glad your "cool with blunt." I didn't want to seem mean at all...but at the same time I didn't want to see you get mired down in detail. Kind of funny seeing me write that, as I tend to over-analyze things myself. Besides, considering your line of work, it would kind of suck if you didn't pay attention to the little things. I know you mentioned you'd like to take advantage of making corrections early to avoid losing one week of progress. Personally, unless you're just looking at "fixing" barrel speed rotation (more on that later), you will probably need to let your stuff roll at least a few days so you can check the progress of things. Looking for slurry development in a day or two really won't give you a good idea. Moreover, you really won't get a good idea of how things went until you do that first weekly cleanout. Then, you will see what really happened and if your grit was used up. As far as amounts of grit, I pretty much use 1.4 tbsp per pound of barrel capacity at all stages except polish. For the polish stage, I use half that amount (about 3-4 tbsp total in a 4 lb barrel). It's hard to tell how good your barrel speed is by simply looking at a short video. You can check the old fashioned way - just count the number of revolutions in one minute (rpm). To make it easy to count, put the paper Lortone label back on your lid so you can easily count how many times the barrel goes around. If you don't have the circular label any longer, just put a mark on the lid so it's easy to see. My QT-66 turns around 31-32 times per minute. I don't recall what the factory spec is, but I think it's somewhere around there. If you really need to know, just give Lortone a call. Hope this helps.
|
|
saxplayer
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since March 2018
Posts: 1,327
|
Post by saxplayer on Apr 2, 2018 14:32:37 GMT -5
I’m cool with blunt I know it’s a long process I’m just after input if I’m doing thing a correctly. I hate to let it go 1 week and check it to find I could have adjusted it correctly on day 2 of that week (if that makes sense). I put it back to grind for another week. I’m expecting 3-4 weeks for my first stage here based on results. We will see. I’m mostly trying to check if my new 6lb tumbler and 6tbl grit seems reasonable and show my progress along the way for help (for myself and maybe others). I really have zero impatience here. I expect it to be awhile. Looking for tips on the way. I am a very analytical person and it’s at the core of my person and my job so it’s maybe not shocking to you I’m posting a lot about it. It’s how I learn and process. I don’t mind straight shooting or bluntness at all. Thanks. I'm glad your "cool with blunt." I didn't want to seem mean at all...but at the same time I didn't want to see you get mired down in detail. Kind of funny seeing me write that, as I tend to over-analyze things myself. Besides, considering your line of work, it would kind of suck if you didn't pay attention to the little things. I know you mentioned you'd like to take advantage of making corrections early to avoid losing one week of progress. Personally, unless you're just looking at "fixing" barrel speed rotation (more on that later), you will probably need to let your stuff roll at least a few days so you can check the progress of things. Looking for slurry development in a day or two really won't give you a good idea. Moreover, you really won't get a good idea of how things went until you do that first weekly cleanout. Then, you will see what really happened and if your grit was used up. As far as amounts of grit, I pretty much use 1.4 tbsp per pound of barrel capacity at all stages except polish. For the polish stage, I use half that amount (about 3-4 tbsp total in a 4 lb barrel). It's hard to tell how good your barrel speed is by simply looking at a short video. You can check the old fashioned way - just count the number of revolutions in one minute (rpm). To make it easy to count, put the paper Lortone label back on your lid so you can easily count how many times the barrel goes around. If you don't have the circular label any longer, just put a mark on the lid so it's easy to see. My QT-66 turns around 31-32 times per minute. I don't recall what the factory spec is, but I think it's somewhere around there. If you really need to know, just give Lortone a call. Hope this helps. Thanks for the hints. I’m gonna let it run . I def didn’t take any part of your post as mean just to be clear .
|
|
|
Post by grumpybill on Apr 2, 2018 16:54:14 GMT -5
I tried to be cool with a blunt once...
|
|
saxplayer
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since March 2018
Posts: 1,327
|
Post by saxplayer on Apr 2, 2018 18:56:53 GMT -5
I tried to be cool with a blunt once... Ahah!
|
|
notjustone
spending too much on rocks
Member since January 2017
Posts: 426
|
Post by notjustone on Apr 3, 2018 8:59:08 GMT -5
Put some SiC in a jar of plain water and shake it up, then let it sit for a few minutes. The grit settles to the bottom very quickly. Now, fill a jar with slurry and add the same amount of SiC, shake it and let it sit. The grit stays suspended for a long time. I think that without a thickener a good portion of the grit settles in the barrel, rather than grinding on the stones, until the slurry starts to build. I could be wrong...maybe the agitation keeps it suspended? Sometimes I wish I had barrels that allowed me to build a clear lid. the only problem with this theory is that the gravity pulls to the bottom but the bottom of the barrel ends up being at the top a couple seconds later. so imagine setting the jar down then imagine flipping it every 2 seconds. then add rocks so it doesn't have an unobstructed fall. reminds me I have a barrel that's been running 3.5 weeks. just haven't had time to get to it. I'm sure even with the time release factor of the metallurgical sic, the last 2 weeks have been more of a slow erosion process than cutting.
|
|
|
Post by grumpybill on Apr 3, 2018 9:49:34 GMT -5
the only problem with this theory is that the gravity pulls to the bottom but the bottom of the barrel ends up being at the top a couple seconds later. so imagine setting the jar down then imagine flipping it every 2 seconds. then add rocks so it doesn't have an unobstructed fall. Good point. Maybe later I'll put a lid on a jar of water and grit, then rotate it like a tumbler barrel to see if the grit climbs the side of the jar or stays at the bottom. Then I'll add some stones and do the same. Might be an interesting experiment......
|
|
|
Post by MsAli on Apr 3, 2018 10:19:20 GMT -5
Can I add some input without being too blunt? Just let your stuff roll. You seem to be looking for weekly (and maybe daily) changes to what you have going. I really think you're overthinking this and are looking at tumbling in a microcosm. This really isn't rocket science, yet I somehow get the feeling you think it is. I'm not trying to be harsh in any fashion, but I think you're overthinking everything. I offer my input as one who only uses rotary tumblers. I'll offer you this: Start rolling your first stage and let things go until you are happy with the shape of all of your rocks. That is really the final factor. It doesn't matter what's happening inbetween stages...you just have to be happy with the rocks at the end of every stage. They will finish at different intervals, so you may want to backfill at the end of weekly cleanouts with new rough in the coarse stage. Yes, WEEKLY cleanouts. Unless you are not looking for smooth rocks, your first coarse will take weeks, if not months to complete. Heck, I wish I still had your impatience...I just did a cleanout after 3 weeks due to travel and other issues. Once you have enough rocks to move onto the medium stage, things will shorten up a bit. However, the way you choose to handle the subsequent stages may still result in another 6 weeks or so if you are only dealing with a rotary. After coarse, I do one week in medium, two weeks in fine, and three weeks in polish. That's just me. I've been doing this since November so still am a newbie myself At first I did the same. Worried I was doing it right or wrong You guys give us newbies something to strive for and posts like this (blunt or not) are so very helpful Why only 1 week in medium?
|
|