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Post by taylor on May 1, 2018 18:58:26 GMT -5
So my dh put three 3# barrels on with water and soap last night (stones, too) for wash before polish. Two of the three contained hard stones and no issues. The barrel of soft stuff is another matter. Many of the stones are coated with goo. Yuk! The inside of the barrel cleaned up easily with a bit of acetone. Inside of the barrel doesn't look unusual--its been in service for over fives years so there are a few minor nicks, but it doesn't look any different than the other barrels. What is it? What is different? The water, ivory soap, and barrel are the same as many previous rolls. The stones are mostly crumbs--the trimmings from setting up cabs. Some that we have had success with and some new (to us) stuff from this year's gem show. New stuff includes bumblebee, chrome chalcedony, charoite, yellow quartz, and apatite. Old stuff includes obsidian, slag glass, kona dolomite, rosetta, petrified wood, lapis lazuli, variscite, noreena, squirrel tail, fluorite, malachite, rhodonite, and some unidentified pink stuff. Also have some jaspolite in there, I don't remember whether or not we have tumbled it before, but we regularly roll banded iron. Not all of the stones are coated. The obsidian, glass, and quartz are clean. The kona, rosetta, and fluorite are about 75% coated. Yuk. Where did the goo come from? What do we remove from the group? I am also looking for recommendations on how to clean the goo off of the stones. I really don't want to scrub them by hand in solvent. Re-roll with 600 grit? Re-roll with acetone? What do you think? Thanks. Attachments:
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goatgrinder
spending too much on rocks
Make mine a man cave
Member since January 2017
Posts: 368
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Post by goatgrinder on May 1, 2018 19:03:13 GMT -5
I vote for one at a time with a brush.
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Post by Jugglerguy on May 1, 2018 19:17:49 GMT -5
I have never had goo like that. I used to use Dreft laundry soap in my Lot-O rather than borax. I switched when I tried Dreft in my Lortone rotary barrels and the water turned black during a washing/burnishing run. I never had that happen in a Lot-O barrel.
I live in Michigan and have a lot of Kona dolomite in my basement. I have never had much luck tumbling it. Have you been successful tumbling it before?
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Post by gmitch067 on May 1, 2018 20:56:45 GMT -5
I am too much a newbie to tell you which stones caused the gooo... But I have experienced the same when first starting out and tumbling soft feldspar. As they grind away during the 80 and 220 grit stages, the very fine dust mixes with the water and grit and forms the goo... sometimes with the consistency of toothpaste. If left, even for a few minutes off of the tumbler, it settles to the bottom of the barrel to produce it's own version of cement... hard to clean out... but doable with just plain old water and maybe a little of clear unscented dish soap (like Dawn). Acetone is a bit strong for the problem... and might react with the goo. Goo is also known as "slurry." In the proper consistency, slurry helps the grit be lifted by the water to coat the rocks... promotes a good grind. As the rocks roll past others, the slurry also helps stop banging around.... good for when the rocks are brittle and easily shattered or bruise. When the slurry forms too thick, it could cause the rocks to stick to the sidewall of your tumbler... no grind. It does look cool though... like you are looking inside a cave). No worries... just add a little more water, stir up the goo with a kitchen spatula, button up your 3 lb tumbler barrel and forge on ahead. Glenn
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Post by gmitch067 on May 1, 2018 21:05:06 GMT -5
As for sticking to some stones but not others... Maybe pores of the surface either act to attract or prevent attachment of the slurry???
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Post by taylor on May 2, 2018 0:52:04 GMT -5
Thanks for your thoughts guys! Jugglerguy I don't think I have much of the kona left--it goes quickly from the tumbled stones container. I will find some tomorrow and put up a picture. It doesn't finish as shiny as hard materials, but it is better than a matte finish. gmitch067 Sure, we have seen that kind of goo, I would call it sludge. This is different. We were running burnish with just soap, water, and the stones. The stones had been well rinsed after 600 grit. The only observation of the post 600 slurry was that it was brownish rather than greyish. Obviously the color of the slurry can change depending upon the materials in the roll. This goo is sticky and has glued itself to some of the load. We didn't notice anything sticky after course grit, the second roll (I think he mixed 220 and 400), or the third roll of 600. At first we thought that the rubber of the barrel had somehow broken down, but the condition of the interior of the barrel doesn't support that theory. Did I mention sticky? The stones with goo feel sticky. Goo peeled off of a stone feels sticky and sticks to one's fingers. No gritty feeling, more like uncured epoxy. goatgrinder I'm thinkin' yore checkin' my sense 'o humor In almost ten years of tumbling we've not seen anything even close to the sticky stuff on these stones. I'm asking because I'm wary of the chemistry. The piece of bumblebee that I cabbed smelled like sulfer--glad my cabbing area is well ventilated. I wouldn't want to accidentally generate hydrogen sulfide or anything else toxic. But I would like to salvage this batch. Further thoughts?
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Post by taylor on May 2, 2018 0:57:14 GMT -5
As for sticking to some stones but not others... Maybe pores of the surface either act to attract or prevent attachment of the slurry??? I believe that you are correct. The glass has no goo and the more porous stuff is coated.
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Post by gmitch067 on May 2, 2018 1:39:05 GMT -5
That sort of goo happened to me only once (at least for the cause). I had used a home made foam rubber gasket to seal my UV-18 lid down. The foam disintegrated and left black goo on the rocks. But... it was easily cleaned off during the burnish stage. Sooo... I don't know the "how" of your problem. Sorry.
Could your use of acetone in clean-outs left a residue which caused a chemical reaction with the barrel rubber?
Glenn
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Post by taylor on May 2, 2018 10:28:02 GMT -5
Ah, foam rubber. I can see how that could deteriorate. That's the kind of thing I'm expecting to discover.
Our normal clean out of the barrels is just water from a garden hose. We only used the acetone on this one because of the sticky stuff. This is a Lortone barrel, so just the barrel and lid are in contact with the stones.
I am stumped because the barrel contained stones, water, and soap.
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Post by gmitch067 on May 2, 2018 10:42:36 GMT -5
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geostrong
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Life is like saltation, you have to bounce off of others to become a well-rounded individual
Member since April 2018
Posts: 88
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Post by geostrong on May 2, 2018 11:07:38 GMT -5
In almost ten years of tumbling we've not seen anything even close to the sticky stuff on these stones. I'm asking because I'm wary of the chemistry. The piece of bumblebee that I cabbed smelled like sulfer--glad my cabbing area is well ventilated. I wouldn't want to accidentally generate hydrogen sulfide or anything else toxic. But I would like to salvage this batch. The chemistry of bumblebee is something to be wary of.... The beautiful orange/yellow in bumblebee comes from the mineral orpiment, which is an arsenic sulfide (can form on its own or as an alteration product of realgar). Arsenic loves to oxidize. There is a chance that you have oxidized arsenic on your stones, perhaps. Good luck with the goo!
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Post by aDave on May 2, 2018 12:09:13 GMT -5
I am also looking for recommendations on how to clean the goo off of the stones. I really don't want to scrub them by hand in solvent. Re-roll with 600 grit? Re-roll with acetone? What do you think? Thanks. I can't help you with the "goo" issue. Never have had it in any of my runs, and, FWIW, I use Borax and water whenever I want to do any sort of burnish. As for your question about re-rolling with acetone, that's a disaster waiting to happen IMHO - think (potential) leaks, reactions and overpressure in the barrel, etc. I'd kind of equate that with the folks (that I've seen) that thought it would be a good idea to do their laundry in gasoline. Probably not a good idea. As far as cleaning each stone with a brush, I'm kind of with goatgrinder (not testing your sense of humor) since you don't really know what you're dealing with and what caused it. I inspect every single stone in my runs, so it's not really that far fetched an idea. Here, you can probably use acetone if you feel it's necessary, but make sure you're not near any ignition sources at all and are in a well ventilated area (outdoors). If you can get the stones cleaned this way, you can simply use water to rinse the rocks, as acetone is water soluble.
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NRG
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since February 2018
Posts: 1,630
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Post by NRG on May 2, 2018 17:44:55 GMT -5
What kind of soap? Maybe there is some borates in some stones (or other reactive cations) and they reacted with the soap to make a form of 'slime'.
YouTube that BTW. Borax and Wood Glue makes slime.
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Post by taylor on May 2, 2018 18:06:33 GMT -5
Thank you gmitch067 for the thread link. Very informative. geostrong thank you...I recognized the sulfer, but wasn't aware of the arsenic. No more bumblebee in any of our tumbles! Incidentally those pieces are about 75% coated with goo. Thank you aDave. I can picture all kinds of cartoon style incidents with gasoline "laundry soap" (insert smiley face) I was thinking about 3 Tbsp of acetone and a short observed roll. Certainly not replace the water and walk away overnight! I know that rubber and certain chemicals are not compatible...just haven't gotten to the nitty gritty details of exactly which rubber Lortone uses for their barrels. We do thoroughly rinse with water after each grit stage and then check each stone by hand for condition--does it continue, repeat this stage, or need extra help, or land in the trash can. We don't allow a barrel to sit idle with slurry--its either rolling or being rinsed. Dried slurry is no fun to scrub off of stones or out of barrels. (wish I knew how to put those smiley faces in) I have sorted through this batch and pitched the bumblebee. The stones that were not gooey will go on to polish. The sticky ones we will repeat 600 grit and check after 24 hours. Won't have a chance to start either of those rolls until tomorrow...so at least Friday before we know if the goo will come off or persist. I did find about half a dozen stones in the batch that I didn't recognize. We purchased a box of "retirement gravel"--so called by the vendor because you wouldn't have time to sort through it unless you were retired. Basically its a box of someone's trimmings and scraps all coated with at least a decade of dust. We recently washed the stuff and have started to add it in. So far the box has yielded some very nice crazy lace agate and other agates. This tumble load was mostly our trimmings, but it needed a few more pieces to be a full load so my husband had added some blue glass and unknown jaspers from the retirement gravel. I am wondering if some of those stones had been "stabilized" in some way? Thanks again to everyone for their help. Sorry goatgrinder, I really did think you were kidding. A brush would be very appropriate for dried slurry!
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Post by taylor on May 3, 2018 0:04:40 GMT -5
NRG we are using Ivory bar soap. The cations that I am aware of probably being present are iron, copper, sulfur and chromium. There were three small pieces of an unidentified purple and white stone, so perhaps beryllium. With the variety of materials in this load there are other cations, I simply don't know what they are. Long ago I remember combining borax and polyvinylchloride to make slime--presumably similar to the currently popular homemade slimes. I am not familiar with which stones contain borates. I am learning that many folks use borax in tumbling. So how does that chemistry work? As a side note the coated stones were still tacky to touch when I handled them this afternoon--after being spread out on a towel for almost 24 hours. And for Jugglerguy I have included a picture of some kona dolomite. The purple piece in between is Leland Blue. Attachments:
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Fossilman
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2009
Posts: 20,681
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Post by Fossilman on May 3, 2018 9:41:56 GMT -5
I power wash all my rocks between each tumble stage...Even after I run them through the Ivory soap stage...Never had any problems with soap.. Good luck on finding what the problem is (or) was..
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NRG
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since February 2018
Posts: 1,630
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Post by NRG on May 3, 2018 13:01:51 GMT -5
taylor maybe I meant anions! 30 years ago I was a chemlab tech! Your situation is wierd. Sorry no more help.
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NRG
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since February 2018
Posts: 1,630
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Post by NRG on May 3, 2018 13:06:38 GMT -5
I just read up in the ingredients of ivory soap. It's true soap. Sodium tallowate, sodium palmkernalate.....
So maybe there is a low pH stone causing the sodium to release and the fat to turn to goo..... ?
Spitballing here
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Post by taylor on May 6, 2018 23:30:45 GMT -5
Thank you NRG, that makes sense. I haven't a clue about the pH of the stones, but the sticky could be really scummy soap. Now to remove it!
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
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Post by jamesp on May 7, 2018 2:13:14 GMT -5
Quite a mix taylor"Old stuff includes obsidian, slag glass, kona dolomite, rosetta, petrified wood, lapis lazuli, variscite, noreena, squirrel tail, fluorite, malachite, rhodonite, and some unidentified pink stuff. Also have some jaspolite in there" Most rocks are fairly chemically stable but a broad mix like this may create some aggressive chemicals. However... I'll stick my neck out on this one as I have done here a hundred times before. The master tumbler from the backwoods of rural Georgia. Back to the acetone. Did you run your batch with acetone ? Or just clean the barrel with acetone ? You mentioned re-running with acetone. Not sure, assuming acetone contacted you rubber barrels and/or rocks: Acetone is a horse of a different color and obnoxious at that. Most rubbers and acetone(your suspicions) are not normally friendly with each other. At all. I'd bet on dissolved rubber if you added acetone to the batch. Suggest not cleaning rocks w/acetone either, especially if the are going back into rubber barrels. I would rerun in that 600 grit or pre polish or polish w/out the acetone to remove rubber coating on your porous rocks. IMO you will have to grind your rubber coating off of the porous rocks. Acetone (solvent) would have dissolved rubber into your porous rocks. Not the glass and obsidian, it is the least porous of the batch. The surface layer of the inside of your Lortone barrel may be softened and transfer more rubber to your rocks in future runs. I would do coarse grit runs in the acetone afflicted barrels to help remove the solvent damaged rubber layer. Please, no mo acetone Taylor. I would guess Lortone's are EPDM, but perhaps not. Maybe this chart will bring some faith to the weary in what I am saying. See acetone, last line. Good luck:
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