jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jun 9, 2018 16:10:14 GMT -5
Welded this up for 2 reasons Built to do two 3 to 5 pound rocks at the same time with a divider to keep them from crashing together. Has big opening. And hopefully to pre-polish 3 times more glass per load than dual Mini-Sonic hoppers. Fingers crossed on that one. No liner, just steel. May/may not be a problem. Might be able to drop a fitted bottom plastic bag or shower cap in each section if need be. Heavy tub and runs gentle. The Vibrasonic is a great base unit for home made hoppers and can easily process 35 pounds. Estimate this hopper at 15 pounds. Not the easiest weldment. Using a shower cap to maintain moisture.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jun 10, 2018 7:29:48 GMT -5
Heard of aluminum oxide, cerium oxide, chrome oxide, etc ? How about iron oxide(= rust). Pure iron oxide may be an excellent slurry additive even though it is filthy. Conductivity due to metal ions may be a factor in slurry, a subject discussed in industrial abrasive operations but beyond my comprehension. Freshly commissioned steel hopper had a serious case of rust being removed by tumbling abrasive after 18 hours. Not only did the rust get removed but a pre-polish on glass prepped in the rotary in only 18 hours. Larger hopper is probably pressing down harder and increasing grinding forces/rate. Running ahead of schedule on pre-polish. Could the iron oxide be helping ? Will do a clean out and weigh the batch so the hopper capacity will be a known. Pre-polish has been the bottleneck in the glass tumbling due to small vibe capacity. Rotary tumblers way out produce the vibes. This large hopper will give the rotary tumblers competition. But the big test is if the Lot-O will polish this batch. Reflectivity test after 18 hours(defined window panes in steep reflection). They failed reflection test yesterday. Iron oxide also known as rust cleaned off well. No bruises from steel hopper either. No metal tracks on glass. New hopper seems to be working. Will add some softer fluorite and serpentine in with the glass to see if they will get a wet polish.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jun 10, 2018 7:42:46 GMT -5
Well check this out, quick search on "iron oxide":
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jun 10, 2018 7:51:30 GMT -5
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Post by grumpybill on Jun 11, 2018 5:06:19 GMT -5
Hmmm...interesting find, James.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jun 11, 2018 5:20:50 GMT -5
Hmmm...interesting find, James. Yes it is. No one said much. Never knew about it. Iron oxide comes cheap, you are a concrete man. Bags of iron oxide for coloring concrete are sure cheap. The main body of that hopper was welded several years ago and had held water sitting out side. Must have had 3 - 4 tablespoons of rust accumulation. It is a nasty mess used in the vibe but must say it is some of the slickest slurry I have ever used. Not one single bouncing piece of glass either. Slurry per excellence and totally vibe friendly with no foreign crap in it like silica or native aluminum oxide. I ordered two 8 ounce bottles of dead pure 40 micron off Ebay. I think it is used in cosmetics mostly. May turn out to be combo slurry/abrasive, best of both worlds.
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Post by grumpybill on Jun 11, 2018 7:30:39 GMT -5
Bags of iron oxide for coloring concrete are sure cheap... ...May turn out to be combo slurry/abrasive, best of both worlds. Hmmm...I need to stop by my former employer's shop and "borrow" a bag of red mortar dye. Will try it first as a thickener in a course grind barrel. Not sure how "fine" mortar coloring is...do know that it's finer than the pores in my skin...can't be washed out, needs to wear off.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jun 11, 2018 8:27:54 GMT -5
Bags of iron oxide for coloring concrete are sure cheap... ...May turn out to be combo slurry/abrasive, best of both worlds. Hmmm...I need to stop by my former employer's shop and "borrow" a bag of red mortar dye. Will try it first as a thickener in a course grind barrel. Not sure how "fine" mortar coloring is...do know that it's finer than the pores in my skin...can't be washed out, needs to wear off. Doubt it matters, looked like the vibe had it down to mush in 10 minutes. Probably breaks down fast, maybe too fast in a vibe to help on rocks, not sure. i.e. abrasive too soft ? Need to look up Mohs/Knoop hardness of iron oxide......
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Post by toiv0 on Jun 11, 2018 9:00:53 GMT -5
Hmmm...interesting find, James. Yes it is. No one said much. Never knew about it. Iron oxide comes cheap, you are a concrete man. Bags of iron oxide for coloring concrete are sure cheap. The main body of that hopper was welded several years ago and had held water sitting out side. Must have had 3 - 4 tablespoons of rust accumulation. It is a nasty mess used in the vibe but must say it is some of the slickest slurry I have ever used. Not one single bouncing piece of glass either. Slurry per excellence and totally vibe friendly with no foreign crap in it like silica or native aluminum oxide. I ordered two 8 ounce bottles of dead pure 40 micron off Ebay. I think it is used in cosmetics mostly. May turn out to be combo slurry/abrasive, best of both worlds. The red iron oxide we use 90 percent of it passes the 325 screen or 44 micron. To color something red it takes about 200 or so to one. 1200 grit is 12 micron. I can see using red clay and making a red mess. But a teaspoon of red iron oxide would be next to impossible to clean off. Clay is less than 20 micron orless and if it has a silt content 53 to 20 micron then if there is the sand in the clay that can scratch your final polish can be 53 micron(270 mesh) to 1000 micron (18 mesh) When you use the iron oxide colorant you can shower a few times and a white towel will still have red pigment on it
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jun 11, 2018 9:10:23 GMT -5
My mother gave me many a whippin for red clay(iron oxide) stains in my clothes toiv0. To my surprise the iron oxide from the rust in this hopper washed off(glass) easily go figure. Hands too. Certain that this rust does not stain near as much as the iron oxides you are mentioning. I noticed most of the iron oxide on Ebay was about 40 micron. I think it designed for pigment. Red ochre the Natives used is about permanent too.
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Post by grumpybill on Jun 11, 2018 9:40:40 GMT -5
The red iron oxide we use 90 percent of it passes the 325 screen or 44 micron. I found the same to be true when I checked the info for mortar coloring. Too course for tumbling anything other than the first stages...unless it's soft enough to quickly break down as jamesp suspects.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jun 11, 2018 9:56:17 GMT -5
The red iron oxide we use 90 percent of it passes the 325 screen or 44 micron. I found the same to be true when I checked the info for mortar coloring. Too course for tumbling anything other than the first stages...unless it's soft enough to quickly break down as jamesp suspects. Did a quick search on 'hardness of iron oxide' and the conversation jumped over my head. It can be found out somewhere. It seems to come in different forms, that may complicate matters. The ad above says it is used in lapidary and on glass, must have some kind of abrasive properties. Belt broke on vibe so I lost a day on iron oxide maiden voyage. Should know tomorrow.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jun 11, 2018 12:18:40 GMT -5
Score.
Lot-O almost perfectly polished a few pieces of 24 hour glass out of the new enlarged hopper. Betting a real fine polish after 48 hours in enlarged hopper. The real test is the final polish.
Apparently a steel hopper has no ill effects when performing pre-polish stage.
Not sure what effect the rust had as I was using aluminum oxide.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jun 14, 2018 8:47:59 GMT -5
Very happy to find a fine polish in this new hopper today.
I did the 220 clean out yesterday and weighed the glass, obsidian and media at 13 pounds. Reloaded at 10AM yesterday with polish. Had a shine by 7AM today and probably a real nice polish by noon today. 48 hours in 220 + 36 hours in polish should polish my glass from rotary with a low media percentage. The problem with the Lot-O is that it will not do this 220 to polish step in less than 5 days anyway. A mystery. The frequency is about the same as the Lot-O. That only leaves 3 more variables, shape of hopper, amplitude/acceleration curve and the direction of the applied forces.
Apparently there is no problem using a steel hopper with out a rubber coating. Skip that concern. The batch rotation is gentle and much slower than most vibes at about one rotation in 1-2 minutes. Fast batch rotation means nothing in my experience and if anything an opportunity for bruises on soft materials. There is zero bouncing on the top layer of the batch. The depth of the batch is 6 inches top to bottom. Doubt the rust had anything to do with the finish. Hopper rust free now.
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ingawh
starting to spend too much on rocks
The rock wants to shine, I just help it get there
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Post by ingawh on Jun 14, 2018 23:25:48 GMT -5
I was fascinated to read this thread top to bottom and see more of your experiments, happy accidents, and scientific discoveries. You've got me dreaming about going more "big-time" with this little hobby...
LOVE your glass pieces.
Cheers!
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jun 15, 2018 4:24:06 GMT -5
I was fascinated to read this thread top to bottom and see more of your experiments, happy accidents, and scientific discoveries. You've got me dreaming about going more "big-time" with this little hobby... LOVE your glass pieces. Cheers! Thanks a bunch ingawh. It appears that the size increase made the process much more user friendly which is normally not the way it goes. Increased grinding pressure due to increased rock column height seems to be speeding up the process(analogy would be increased head pressure from diving deeper in a lake). Take note that the Lot-O has a deep hopper too. Small in diameter albeit but tall so the stones get some down pressure when they pass thru the bottom of the hopper. You can rest assured that most of the grinding action takes place in the lower section of the hopper. Thinking about the tall but narrow rotary barrels your friend uses is a similar situation for rotary tumblers. But the main issue is the vibration parameters and hopper shape. Vibration analysis can be super complicated in 3 dimensional situations like a bowl vibe. Lot-O and the Vibrasonic generate darn near 100% 2 dimensional vibration and way more easy to adjust and control with basic adjustments. Only the most basic components of a vibrating system were tweaked to arrive at this outcome. Being a welder helped a bunch since steel is a great medium to build(many that failed) prototypes out of. "The frequency is about the same as the Lot-O. That only leaves 3 more variables, shape of hopper, amplitude/acceleration curve and the direction of the applied forces." But lots of unanswered questions exist. Especially when comparing the Lot-O to this machine. Results are from trial and error in perceived adjustments and far from quantitative.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jun 15, 2018 7:54:28 GMT -5
Just did the big clean out. #1) Polish is great but just a step less than the Lot-O's polish. Maiden voyage, several adjustments can be made, more media,thicker slurry, filling the hopper with 2 more pounds as it was running low. #2) Slight bruises on the edges. Never in Lot-O. Steel hopper ? Or the solutions mentioned above for #1). Adjust counterbalance. Alter hopper. For $5 jewels the quality is plenty good. Bruises hard to see.
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Post by aDave on Jun 15, 2018 11:32:51 GMT -5
Stuff looks good jamesp. Bruising? I always wondered how harsh a steel hopper would be as opposed to something rubber. Have you considered something like Plasti Dip? It is a spray-on rubber finish that might offer a bit of cushion. Worst case is that it just wears off and you touch it up, or disregard the idea at the end of the day and just let it wear away. It can be found at places like Home Depot.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Jun 15, 2018 11:52:24 GMT -5
Stuff looks good jamesp. Bruising? I always wondered how harsh a steel hopper would be as opposed to something rubber. Have you considered something like Plasti Dip? It is a spray-on rubber finish that might offer a bit of cushion. Worst case is that it just wears off and you touch it up, or disregard the idea at the end of the day and just let it wear away. It can be found at places like Home Depot. If the other adjustments don't work I will head to Home Depot and try your suggestion. I was hoping the steel was not the problem but these bruises are only found exactly perpendicular to the edge and has me suspicious. Most bruising is spread out over the edge and these are different. I never ran a vibe short on level either and have heard war stories about that too. Going to load er up again with the adjustments and will know soon enough. Thanks for the tip, I had no idea where a coating could be had. even if it only lasts a couple of runs it would answer the question.
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Post by aDave on Jun 15, 2018 12:23:08 GMT -5
If the other adjustments don't work I will head to Home Depot and try your suggestion. I was hoping the steel was not the problem but these bruises are only found exactly perpendicular to the edge and has me suspicious. Most bruising is spread out over the edge and these are different. I never ran a vibe short on level either and have heard war stories about that too. Going to load er up again with the adjustments and will know soon enough. Thanks for the tip, I had no idea where a coating could be had. even if it only lasts a couple of runs it would answer the question. James, www.homedepot.com/p/Plasti-Dip-11-oz-Black-Plasti-Dip-11203-6/100131010Just so you know what it looks like. Should be in the paint dept.
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