|
Post by TheRock on Nov 2, 2018 20:47:27 GMT -5
Thanks for the ones trying to help me figure this out. I forgot one thing I do,,, I use reverse Osmosis De-Ionized filtered Water I put a system in my house years ago. I figure it's better than the Chlorinated water my City has. I have mineral filter that put the minerals back in the water after being filtered but thats not the water I use for the rocks'
|
|
|
Post by aDave on Nov 2, 2018 21:21:29 GMT -5
WoW HankRocks I am surprised to hear that, because I have never had so much as drip out of a thumler and you brought up a good point, I have never washed off any rocks so maybe I need to do that from here on out! using the Lortone maybe I need not skip that step being as it uses a weaker compression type lid seal. johnw the lid was not completely blown off but rather pushed out quite a bit. From here on out I will wash the Rocks off before loading and I will pay closer attention to load it between 1/2 to 2/3rds full and will lean twords the 1/2 full to leave room for expansion. I always use 4 table Spoons Bentonite Clay type Kitty Litter as a carrier of the Grit to thicken the slurry and two table spoons in the 6lb Lortone barrels and when I started over I did the same thing. I am leaning twords the washing of the media thing and fullness of loading, Thanks Duke I think you're overthinking the headspace issue. You're thinking you need to leave room for expansion, and you're (now) choosing to use a lesser amount of material to avoid any issues. Respectfully, I believe you've misunderstood the reason for a certain amount of headspace and how full the barrel should be. If you are looking to account for expansion, (I believe) you're effectively looking for the amount of rocks being an issue. I dont see that as being a factor. That's just me. You mentioned the need for expansion tanks for boilers - doesn't apply here. They're separate tanks used to take up excessive pressure in a closed system, which is nothing near what we're speaking about here. That said, the reason for a recommended "fill" level relates to how it will affect tumbling action - nothing more; nothing less. You can choose to use a template for your fill, and that's OK, but it won't affect a potential "blowout." I'm still on the fence that overpressure/off-gassing led to your issue, as there isn't enough info to make that determination just yet. In short, if your barrel is underfilled, rocks can more easily crash against each other and fractures/imperfections are more likely to occur. If your barrel is overfilled, tumbling action will be inhibited due to the rocks not being able to roll properly. That's why levels are stated in instructions...not because of overpressure issues. As you alluded to, there's no need to do math for this stuff. Set your appropriate level and go from there. Quite frankly, and until I see otherwise, I think you're still potentially dealing with a mechanical issue. I'm not dead set on that, and I can be convinced with the right amount of evidence, but I'm leaning in a direction that might be contrary to yours.
|
|
saxplayer
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since March 2018
Posts: 1,327
|
Post by saxplayer on Nov 2, 2018 21:31:53 GMT -5
I won’t get involved in the issues lol. However - if you’re done with Lortone I’ll buy them
|
|
|
Post by johnw on Nov 2, 2018 23:11:46 GMT -5
WoW HankRocks I am surprised to hear that, because I have never had so much as drip out of a thumler and you brought up a good point, I have never washed off any rocks so maybe I need to do that from here on out! using the Lortone maybe I need not skip that step being as it uses a weaker compression type lid seal. johnw the lid was not completely blown off but rather pushed out quite a bit. From here on out I will wash the Rocks off before loading and I will pay closer attention to load it between 1/2 to 2/3rds full and will lean twords the 1/2 full to leave room for expansion. I always use 4 table Spoons Bentonite Clay type Kitty Litter as a carrier of the Grit to thicken the slurry and two table spoons in the 6lb Lortone barrels and when I started over I did the same thing. I am leaning twords the washing of the media thing and fullness of loading, Thanks Duke I think you're overthinking the headspace issue. You're thinking you need to leave room for expansion, and you're (now) choosing to use a lesser amount of material to avoid any issues. Respectfully, I believe you've misunderstood the reason for a certain amount of headspace and how full the barrel should be. If you are looking to account for expansion, (I believe) you're effectively looking for expansion of the rocks, and that's not going to happen. Your barrel has a certain volume, and IMHO, the amount of rocks inside of it really makes little difference whatsoever at the end of the day. You mentioned the need for expansion tanks for boilers - doesn't apply here. They're separate tanks used to take up excessive pressure in a closed system, which is nothing near what we're speaking about here. That said, the reason for a recommended "fill" level relates to how it will affect tumbling action - nothing more; nothing less. You can choose to use a template for your fill, and that's OK, but it won't affect a potential "blowout." I'm still on the fence that overpressure/off-gassing led to your issue, as there isn't enough info to make that determination just yet. In short, if your barrel is underfilled, rocks can more easily crash against each other and fractures/imperfections are more likely to occur. If your barrel is overfilled, tumbling action will be inhibited due to the rocks not being able to roll properly. That's why levels are stated in instructions...not because of overpressure issues. As you alluded to, there's no need to do math for this stuff. Set your appropriate level and go from there. Quite frankly, and until I see otherwise, I think you're still potentially dealing with a mechanical issue. I'm not set on that, and I can be convinced with the right amount of evidence, but I'm leaning in a direction that might be contrary to yours. "You mentioned the need for expansion tanks for boilers - doesn't apply here. They're separate tanks used to take up excessive pressure in a closed system, which is nothing near what we're speaking about here.............aDave, from where I sit your comment is a bit harsh don't you think, the Duke came here looking for help and was providing an analogy that he is very familiar with based on his training in his quest to find answers. Not to get trashed for his thought process. Also it seems you are contradicting yourself when you state "Your barrel has a certain volume, and IMHO, the amount of rocks inside of it really makes little difference whatsoever at the end of the day. When you further state.... the reason for a recommended "fill" level relates to how it will affect tumbling action - nothing more; nothing less.So not quite sure of what you mean here since its clear the amount of rocks has a decided affect on how the machine operates. In my opinion, as previously stated it boils down to three events that lead up to this" incident". 1) pressure inside the barrel, 2) an uneven load, and 3), the "lid" was not seated correctly. Conversely, it could be a sequential build up of all three that led to the "blowout". I would really welcome any other ideas that are contrary to this. Hey guys and gals, it's only a forum and we are entitled to say what we need to say to support our conclusions. While I do not profess to have all the answers in this matter what I stated is based on being an industrial engineer for most of my life and looking at it as though it was a manufacturing issue. Duke, break your issue down into the five primary components of failure and you will find your solution. aDave: no harm, no foul, are we cool? Cheers everyone. johnw
|
|
|
Post by aDave on Nov 2, 2018 23:39:08 GMT -5
"You mentioned the need for expansion tanks for boilers - doesn't apply here. They're separate tanks used to take up excessive pressure in a closed system, which is nothing near what we're speaking about here.............aDave, from where I sit your comment is a bit harsh don't you think, the Duke came here looking for help and was providing an analogy that he is very familiar with based on his training in his quest to find answers. Not to get trashed for his thought process. Also it seems you are contradicting yourself when you state "Your barrel has a certain volume, and IMHO, the amount of rocks inside of it really makes little difference whatsoever at the end of the day. When you further state.... the reason for a recommended "fill" level relates to how it will affect tumbling action - nothing more; nothing less.So not quite sure of what you mean here since its clear the amount of rocks has a decided affect on how the machine operates. In my opinion, as previously stated it boils down to three events that lead up to this" incident". 1) pressure inside the barrel, 2) an uneven load, and 3), the "lid" was not seated correctly. Conversely, it could be a sequential build up of all three that led to the "blowout". I would really welcome any other ideas that are contrary to mine. Hey guys and gals, it's only a forum and we are entitled to say what we need to say to support our conclusions. While I do not profess to have all the answers in this matter what I stated is based on being an industrial engineer for most of my life and looking at it as though it was a manufacturing issue. Duke, break your issue down into the five components of failure and you will find your solution. Cheers everyone. johnw John, My comment about the expansion tank was never meant to be critical or snarky. The way I read the analogy, I was simply stating the fact that it couldn't apply in this case, as the tumbler itself can't have such a component. I was not trashing him in any sense. If, somehow, that seems to be the case, I'll apologize now. I was simply opining that said tank can't be applied here - two different applications. My statement about fill level is related to what I was interpreting as Bob's feeling about how fill level affected some type of expansion within the barrel. No contradiction with my feelings, as the fill level has nothing to do with expansion IMHO - it has to do with how tumbling action will occur. I think we're getting lost in the weeds here. Looking at your 3 variables above, I'd lean more to #3 based upon what has been presented thus far. There could be a number of factors for that reason, but to go that route would only result in speculation - as would the first two examples you presented. The way this has gone, I think I'll simply back out. I have a sincere interest in trying to figure out what Bob's issues are (and have had since the outset), as I might be affected down the road since I've been using the same equipment, albeit without issue. I think at this time, I'll simply be a spectator.
|
|
|
Post by johnw on Nov 2, 2018 23:50:40 GMT -5
"You mentioned the need for expansion tanks for boilers - doesn't apply here. They're separate tanks used to take up excessive pressure in a closed system, which is nothing near what we're speaking about here.............aDave, from where I sit your comment is a bit harsh don't you think, the Duke came here looking for help and was providing an analogy that he is very familiar with based on his training in his quest to find answers. Not to get trashed for his thought process. Also it seems you are contradicting yourself when you state "Your barrel has a certain volume, and IMHO, the amount of rocks inside of it really makes little difference whatsoever at the end of the day. When you further state.... the reason for a recommended "fill" level relates to how it will affect tumbling action - nothing more; nothing less.So not quite sure of what you mean here since its clear the amount of rocks has a decided affect on how the machine operates. In my opinion, as previously stated it boils down to three events that lead up to this" incident". 1) pressure inside the barrel, 2) an uneven load, and 3), the "lid" was not seated correctly. Conversely, it could be a sequential build up of all three that led to the "blowout". I would really welcome any other ideas that are contrary to mine. Hey guys and gals, it's only a forum and we are entitled to say what we need to say to support our conclusions. While I do not profess to have all the answers in this matter what I stated is based on being an industrial engineer for most of my life and looking at it as though it was a manufacturing issue. Duke, break your issue down into the five components of failure and you will find your solution. Cheers everyone. johnw John, My comment about the expansion tank was never meant to be critical or snarky. The way I read the analogy, I was simply stating the fact that it couldn't apply in this case, as the tumbler itself can't have such a component. I was not trashing him in any sense. If, somehow, that seems to be the case, I'll apologize now. I was simply opining that said tank can't be applied here - two different applications. My statement about fill level is related to what I was interpreting as Bob's feeling about how fill level affected some type of expansion within the barrel. No contradiction with my feelings, as the fill level has nothing to do with expansion IMHO - it has to do with how tumbling action will occur. I think we're getting lost in the weeds here. Looking at your 3 variables above, I'd lean more to #3 based upon what has been presented thus far. There could be a number of factors for that reason, but to go that route would only result in speculation - as would the first two examples you presented. The way this has gone, I think I'll simply back out. I have a sincere interest in trying to figure out what Bob's issues are (and have had since the outset), as I might be affected down the road since I've been using the same equipment, albeit without issue. I think at this time, I'll simply be a spectator. Fair enough, I can support your conclusion. "Let the members solve their own issues". Cheers, johnw
|
|
|
Post by TheRock on Nov 3, 2018 0:58:48 GMT -5
Yikes! I dont want to stir up a HORNETS nest here. Why does 1 barrel let loose and the other doesn't and I load both of them the exact same way and the other one doesn't. At this point I think I will make a movie of exactly how I load the Tumbler. All I can go by is the training I have had and the Principals I have been taught. In my sincere opinion no matter what the object is, weather it be a boiler, or a Rock tumbler there are certain things that weigh in such as material strengths, Seal types and ratings, And physics, many of these have the same principals and I can only go by what I am taught and have learned in my 61 years on this the Third Rock From The Sun. I am If my opinions differ from anyone else's, But there is little difference between the expansion (pressure buildup) in a rock tumbler or a boiler. What is making the pressure there is definitely a difference. In a boiler it is heat that builds the pressure to around 30psi. In a tumbler it is chemical generated pressure From What? I dunno yet. I am MR. CLEAN just look at my shop and equipment I keep it CLEAN. My Lortone is washed and I scrub the seal and lid mating areas and wash them real good I also use Mothers VLR to make them pluttle so the rubber doesn't get hard and stays soft and yes I wash it off real good. I dampen the lid insert it all the way down to the ribbed step in the barrel and then dampen the Aluminum cap and push it down till it stops and wen I put the plastic ribbed nut on and I snug it good without over tightening, I have read the Book Modern Rock Tumbling by Steve Hart cover to cover and I have spoken to Steve Quite several times. He has something to try here. Maybe a teaspoon of this will do? I dunno So again I appreciate everyone's help. I will try and get the video up over the Weekend But a Fireman friend of our's Wife Died and we are having a dinner for him and his family, and I got volunteered to Grill 40 LBS of The Duke's Fall Off Da Bone Chicken. So I will be extra Busy.
|
|
|
Post by TheRock on Nov 3, 2018 1:24:47 GMT -5
NO! We are all friends and I wont have it any other way. I am not hurt by any of this so there is no backing out. Please! ~Duke
|
|
mossyrockhound
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2011
Posts: 1,278
|
Post by mossyrockhound on Nov 3, 2018 2:16:03 GMT -5
A slight change of subject here; do you put plastic booties on over your shoes before you go into your shop? I've never seen a rock shop that pristine.
|
|
|
Post by TheRock on Nov 3, 2018 2:42:34 GMT -5
A slight change of subject here; do you put plastic booties on over your shoes before you go into your shop? I've never seen a rock shop that pristine. No, But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express Last Night! Its 3:26 a.m. Just came in from the Rock Shop and no leaks. This is a True Story. I used to do work for a Dr. Years and Years ago Cleaned and serviced his furnace and HVAC Equipment for many years.. One day My Wife was sick, and I called him and asked could he call the 24 hr Pharmacy and order her some cough medicine and antibiotics for my wife, And he told me to give her some Aspirin and call him in the morning. A couple months had passed, And he called me in the dead of winter it was colder than a Well Diggers Ass Outside and said he had no heat. It seems like that was back in 1983 or 1984 he had an Oil Furnace. Anyways I said you know that little spring loaded sight door above the oil gun where you can look in and see the fire when the furnace is burning? He said Yes. I told him to open it up, get about 6 Aspirin throw them in there and call me in the Morning! He never called! However I think he got the message.
|
|
mossyrockhound
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2011
Posts: 1,278
|
Post by mossyrockhound on Nov 3, 2018 2:56:46 GMT -5
A slight change of subject here; do you put plastic booties on over your shoes before you go into your shop? I've never seen a rock shop that pristine. No, But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express Last Night! Its 3:26 a.m. Just came in from the Rock Shop and no leaks. This is a True Story. I used to do work for a Dr. Years and Years ago Cleaned and serviced his furnace and HVAC Equipment for many years.. One day My Wife was sick, and I called him and asked could he call the 24 hr Pharmacy and order her some cough medicine and antibiotics for my wife, And he told me to give her some Aspirin and call him in the morning. A couple months had passed, And he called me in the dead of winter it was colder than a Well Diggers Ass Outside and said he had no heat. It seems like that was back in 1983 or 1984 he had an Oil Furnace. Anyways I said you know that little spring loaded sight door above the oil gun where you can look in and see the fire when the furnace is burning? He said Yes. I told him to open it up, get about 6 Aspirin throw them in there and call me in the Morning! He never called! However I think he got the message. Good one! Evidently, the aspirins worked for everybody.
|
|
|
Post by TheRock on Nov 3, 2018 3:33:06 GMT -5
I quite often set a loaded barrel in my Lortone frames before turning the power on and have never had one not start rolling immediately. Bill you are lucky. Back when I researched and made a circuit for protection here. Some have had this problem and was glad I wrote the article.
|
|
|
Post by TheRock on Nov 3, 2018 3:43:41 GMT -5
A slight change of subject here; do you put plastic booties on over your shoes before you go into your shop? I've never seen a rock shop that pristine. No Really I have thought about this some more and I think where I get that from is working many years in peoples homes. I have learned to clean up after myself. When I sold someone a Furnace and A/C System the Vacuum came in and I had one of my young lads spend 3 - 4 hours sweeping and cleaning the basement and you would not believe the compliments that I received. Oh yeah and the thumbs up too!
|
|
|
Post by HankRocks on Nov 3, 2018 6:35:25 GMT -5
TheRock I think you can probably view this event as an anomaly. Maybe the lid was not seated properly, who knows. If it happens again then you can start the search for a solution. If it happens again with the same barrel then you know it's probably the barrel/lid. You are a lot better prepared for a Blowout than most of us so relax and have fun.
|
|
|
Post by TheRock on Nov 3, 2018 6:45:52 GMT -5
Thanks HankRocks This is a good learning experience for me. Everyone has to learn at their own pace in different ways and has to take their lumps I sure am taking mine and that's OK as long as I learn something. Sometimes the Hard lessons are the best kind because a they wont be easily forgotten. I have had to learn the hard way my entire career.
|
|
Fossilman
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2009
Posts: 20,688
|
Post by Fossilman on Nov 3, 2018 10:05:41 GMT -5
Not to bad for a blow out.... I had mine spray all over the shop, smelled like puke for a week.... Nasty mess to clean up.... Goes with the job I guess... (As they say)...
|
|
|
Post by johnw on Nov 3, 2018 10:41:29 GMT -5
A slight change of subject here; do you put plastic booties on over your shoes before you go into your shop? I've never seen a rock shop that pristine. OK .mosseyrockhound, I'm game, we need some happy talk breathing room here anyway and I like your intervention.....so this is my response.....sniff, well, you never worked in an HVAC manufacturing environment where the manufacturing and assembly areas for the scroll compressors are comparable with NASA clean room specifications. Not only booties but special clothes and face masks with a thorough vacuum and air pressure shower upon entering and leaving the area. As an HVAC guy Duke is just following the same type of best practice manufacturing protocols and so his working area is beyond clean, its immaculate....errr, well, hmmm, yeah, except for the Lortone area that we we all are learning about. Dang shouldn't have said that. Cheers, johnw
|
|
|
Post by johnw on Nov 3, 2018 10:48:54 GMT -5
Not to bad for a blow out.... I had mine spray all over the shop, smelled like puke for a week.... Nasty mess to clean up.... Goes with the job I guess... (As they say)... Not to put a fine point on this but did you use Kitty Litter? Cheers, johnw
|
|
|
Post by johnw on Nov 3, 2018 11:16:11 GMT -5
Duke, I want to visit this one last time..........as I look at your barrel it seems to be overfilled And, there are some big stones on the surface, plus a load of sludge and crap on the underside of the lid. So I am thinking the lid was not secured well enough, the big rocks got to banging on the lid and there was some pressure build up in the barrel and thus pop. yer lid gave way sufficiently to cause the spew. This is just my opinion and but I can see how it could happen. Correct me if I an wrong, but you did say the lid was not completely removed from the barrel, am I right? Yer onor, I rests me case.............. Cheers, johnw
|
|
unclesoska
freely admits to licking rocks
All those jade boulders tossed in search of gold!
Member since February 2011
Posts: 934
|
Post by unclesoska on Nov 3, 2018 11:47:36 GMT -5
I've always tightened my Lortones as tight as I could by hand. It takes a pair of pliers to loosen it. Never a blowout. Knock on wood...
|
|