|
Post by parfive on Nov 3, 2018 11:51:19 GMT -5
Hell, I need some aspirin just from reading this saga.
|
|
|
Post by johnw on Nov 3, 2018 14:13:16 GMT -5
Duke, I just checked Bentonite Clay Kitty Litter and found this:. ... Bentonite clay has the advantage of clumping in the presence of moisture. So my question is does the kitty litter stuff expand when it absorbs moisture? Seems logical since a body cannot absorb without displacing either its size or expelling (gas?) as a by product of absorption. I don't have a cat so don't know but you could put the same amount of kitty litter that you use in the Lortone barrel:" (I always use 4 table Spoons Bentonite Clay type Kitty Litter as a carrier of the Grit to thicken the slurry and two table spoons in the 6lb Lortone barrels)" in a beaker and apply the same amount of water as you would generally do and then measure the kitty litter volume before and after to determine has the initial six tablespoons expanded in volume? If kitty litter does as the manufacturer says clumps and absorbs its own weight in moisture this may be one of the primary drivers of the lid breach. This is some nasty looking stuff, is it kitty litter? Cheers, johnw
|
|
|
Post by TheRock on Nov 3, 2018 17:09:39 GMT -5
I have strong hands and a strong grip! "NO NOT BECAUSE OF THAT"! Because of all those years Squeezing Sheet Metal Snips Installing Ductwork. And I still have that today. I tighten the thumler Wingnuts and take them off by hand no tools needed. Just wish my back was in good as shape. John that is what I thought, altho everything in there seems fluffed up It didnt look quite that bad when I filled it. I Think I will make a Template just so I don't have to think or eyeball it just fill to the line to have a standard and be done with it. Steve Hart talks about that in his book, and I don't think under the circumstances it's a bad Idea. I think when I make a Vid It Will be Where I fill it because I ill Measure I want to see if the material puts me over 2/3rds full. Thanks to all.
|
|
|
Post by TheRock on Nov 3, 2018 17:16:44 GMT -5
By the time I read yer last post I will get back to you a lil later as I have to get ready for a Wake and to be honest Id rather Take an Ass Whoopin!
|
|
|
Post by TheRock on Nov 4, 2018 13:54:08 GMT -5
Here is the Video that I made. You should get a pretty Good Idea of how I load and fill the tumbler. Again aDave HankRocks johnw thanks for your help on this.
|
|
|
Post by TheRock on Nov 4, 2018 14:02:01 GMT -5
I just got off the Grill cooking 40 lbs of Yard Bird. It has been a SAD WEEKEND dealing with The passing of our Fireman's Friends Wife. I cannot Imagine what I would do if I lost my best friend MaryJane. I will be on later Maybe you guys can Decipher whats going on by my Video. Thanks ~Duke
|
|
saxplayer
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since March 2018
Posts: 1,327
|
Post by saxplayer on Nov 4, 2018 15:04:54 GMT -5
Here is the Video that I made. You should get a pretty Good Idea of how I load and fill the tumbler. Again aDave HankRocks johnw thanks for your help on this. Alright man, let me see if I can be any help here. I watched the whole thing to be thorough. Let me start by how my process differs from yours and then I will offer some possible suggestions? Let me preface that in THIS video everything looks absolutely fine and I would expect zero blow outs. So, that said, I'm speculating a bit as to possible concerns. 1 . Barrel fill = no blowout concerns. You have zero issues with your fill in my opinion (for blow outs). There is nothing wrong with what you did in the video. I personally, would not use any ceramics in rough grind, and I would fill my overall barrel more full than you did (even with ceramics you added). However - I don't think any of what you did would make you prone to a blow out. 2. Grit choice = no blowout concerns. From what I can tell, your grit seems fine. I'm not aware of 30 grit being a risk for Lortone QT 6/12 barrels unless it's a weird brand that might be intrucing a gas species of some sort. I say this is fine. I personally use 8 TBL for my 6 lb barrels, and 16 TBL for my 12 lb barrels (1/2 cup and 1 cup respectively). I believe you used 10 TBL for the 6 lb barrel? If so, again - I think that is no risk for a blowout, just thicker slurry or the possibility for clumping on the bottom of the barrel. Again - I think the amount you used is just fine - just comparing to what I do.3. Kitty litter = possible blowout concern. To start - I use (usually) equal amount of kitty litter and grit. For my 6 lb barrels I'm usually around 1/2 cup of litter, usually slightly less. For my 4.5C barrel, I'm using about 1/4 - 1/3 cup. For my 12 lb barrel I use about 3/4 - 1 cup. You clearly were in NO danger zone for blowout with your litter AMOUNT. However, I am questioning your litter type based on above information. I don't know if this litter is contributing to issues. I have been using kitty litter link from amazon since I started and haven't had a blowout. If I were you - I'd switch litter brands - and just roll with it awhile and see what happens (no pun intended). 4. Rubber gasket/lid, metal lid and nut placement = no blowout concern From what I can see in the video, you do everything exactly as I do. As long as your inner lip that the rubber gasket sits on is dry, and the outer edge of the gasket is dry - you should be fine. You were properly seated inside the barrel as you demonstrated in the video. I usually make sure my metal lid is pressed down equally across the entire circumference of the barrel, but that shouldn't be a major issue. I also only hand tighten my nut, probably 90-95% tight as I can by finger strength. I don't use tools ever. So, the conclusion I have - IF YOU ALWAYS fill the way you did on the video - is 1) either the kitty litter is causing some problem, because of an unknown chemical reaction or 2) when you seal your barrels you have either moisture, small rocks, grit or particles that would impede the rubber on rubber seating of the lids. I honestly think I'd change the litter and see what happens. I have put my gasket lids on multiple times wet, with small amounts of grit underneath them as well, and have had zero issues so far. About 8 months of tumbling. Grant
|
|
|
Post by TheRock on Nov 4, 2018 17:44:16 GMT -5
Hell, I need some aspirin just from reading this saga. Roll up a Fatty, And We Both Will Get Toasted!
|
|
|
Post by johnw on Nov 4, 2018 21:48:59 GMT -5
Duke, as usual, great video. And BTW, nice ink job. My only comment on your process is DUMP THE KITTY LITTER.
I have never seen any manufacturing instructions that state that they advise the use of kitty litter. So why use it? In my tumbling experience I have never used any additive to the grit process just water, rocks and occasionally ceramics. What I find interesting in your video is you crushed the big rocks to a size far less than the ones displayed in your blowout images, good point because the centrifugal force constantly driving those big rocks against a lid, I'm betting, contributed to the breach. So let's see how things go. You have in my opinion eliminated two of the probable causes for the breach, the big rocks and the seating of the lid. If you get a breach this time it's the kitty litter. Oh, I forgot to ask, what was the make up of the rocks in this video? Where they the same as those used in the breach event, otherwise it's not a valid comparison. Good Luck bro I'm pullin' for ya.
Cheers, johnw
|
|
saxplayer
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since March 2018
Posts: 1,327
|
Post by saxplayer on Nov 4, 2018 21:58:40 GMT -5
Duke, as usual, great video. And BTW, nice ink job. My only comment on your process is DUMP THE KITTY LITTER. I have never seen any manufacturing instructions that state that they advise the use of kitty litter. So why use it? In my tumbling experience I have never used any additive to the grit process just water, rocks and occasionally ceramics. What I find interesting in your video is you crushed the big rocks to a size far less than the ones displayed in your blowout images, good point because the centrifugal force constantly driving those big rocks against a lid, I'm betting, contributed to the breach. So let's see how things go. You have in my opinion eliminated two of the probable causes for the breach, the big rocks and the seating of the lid. If you get a breach this time it's the kitty litter. Oh, I forgot to ask, what was the make up of the rocks in this video? Where they the same as those used in the breach event, otherwise it's not a valid comparison. Good Luck bro I'm pullin' for ya. Cheers, johnw John, Many of use kitty litter as a thickener to help carry the grit and form a slurry. See all of Jamesp posts. However, maybe Duke's brand of litter is suspect. Plus, the amount he is using is VERY low volume compared to what many of us use. I don't think the use of kitty litter is any problem - but perhaps his brand is.
|
|
|
Post by johnw on Nov 4, 2018 22:21:07 GMT -5
Duke, as usual, great video. And BTW, nice ink job. My only comment on your process is DUMP THE KITTY LITTER. I have never seen any manufacturing instructions that state that they advise the use of kitty litter. So why use it? In my tumbling experience I have never used any additive to the grit process just water, rocks and occasionally ceramics. What I find interesting in your video is you crushed the big rocks to a size far less than the ones displayed in your blowout images, good point because the centrifugal force constantly driving those big rocks against a lid, I'm betting, contributed to the breach. So let's see how things go. You have in my opinion eliminated two of the probable causes for the breach, the big rocks and the seating of the lid. If you get a breach this time it's the kitty litter. Oh, I forgot to ask, what was the make up of the rocks in this video? Where they the same as those used in the breach event, otherwise it's not a valid comparison. Good Luck bro I'm pullin' for ya. Cheers, johnw John, Many of use kitty litter as a thickener to help carry the grit and form a slurry. See all of Jamesp posts. However, maybe Duke's brand of litter is suspect. Plus, the amount he is using is VERY low volume compared to what many of us use. I don't think the use of kitty litter is any problem - but perhaps his brand is. Hi saxplayer, I think you are right about changing the brand of kitty litter. I thought ceramics helped carry the grit and the fall off from the rocks created the slurry, naturally. Has anyone run studies to validate the use of kitty litter? Cheers, johnw
|
|
saxplayer
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since March 2018
Posts: 1,327
|
Post by saxplayer on Nov 4, 2018 22:24:41 GMT -5
I think many of us use it. I started personally because the people I got advice from who had some of the best tumbles I've seen here (Garage Rocker and JamesP) used it so I did too.
|
|
|
Post by HankRocks on Nov 5, 2018 8:05:32 GMT -5
I have switched from Kitty Litter to dried used slurry. It does the same thing, help suspend the grit and it provides some cushioning. jamesp has posted enough info on this to produce a Doctoral thesis! I do use two kinds of dried slurry, SiC tumble slurry and AlO tumble slurry which always go in matching grit tumbles. It does seem to have helped my tumbling process. Running a batch in the Rotary now with rocks that had only been through the Coarse(40/70 SiC) stage and I am using only AlO slurry, no fresh AlO. I put in about 3 cups of the AlO slurry and am curious to see how it does.
|
|
|
Post by TheRock on Nov 5, 2018 15:46:43 GMT -5
The Kitty Litter I Use Is Special Kitty From Wal~Mart. It is Suppose to not contain any additives. you guys that use the used slurry what king of container do you store it in for how many days etc?
|
|
|
Post by aDave on Nov 5, 2018 21:43:44 GMT -5
The Kitty Litter I Use Is Special Kitty From Wal~Mart. It is Suppose to not contain any additives. you guys that use the used slurry what king of container do you store it in for how many days etc? Ok, I lied. I'll jump back in. I'm one of those "used slurry" guys instead of using something like kitty litter. It makes my disposal easier at the end of the day if I don't use the stuff up. I use old slurry in the coarse stage only. When I do my cleanouts, it's done with a colander over a 5-gallon bucket when I first dump the barrels. All of that sludge goes into the bucket, and I let things settle over a few days. After it's settled, I pour off some of the water into a flowerbed. What I'm left with is a heavy sludge at the bottom of the bucket. I then let that dry to develop a cake. When it's close to being dried out, I pour out the clump of sediment so it can dry out further. When it is totally dry, I simply put the caked material into a ziplock baggy. For this procedure, I'm in a better spot than you. My stuff is done outside, so you'll be limited being in MI...especially during the winter. I've never done this with "wet" sediment from cleanouts, so I can't help there. I'm assuming it can be done, but I don't have a recommendation for amounts to use.
|
|
mikeinsjc
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2010
Posts: 329
|
Post by mikeinsjc on Nov 11, 2018 20:09:24 GMT -5
TheRock, Since everyone else is chiming in on your problem I will also.
I tumble from rough to final polish about a thousand pounds in a nine month period, and have a business selling rocks (tumbled and polished slabs) during the summer. I use strictly Lortone tumblers except for my 50lb Diamond Pacific vibe. So what for years was a hobby has morphed into a business, and that means I'm lucky and also have lots of fun.
Because of the volume I produce, I have little tolerance for equipment that is problematic. I currently run five 40lb and one triple Lortone 12lb tumbler. These units run 24/7 for about 8-9 months. Until last year I also had a custom made unit that ran six 12lb barrels. Just the 12lb units have a cumulative run time in the tens of thousands of hours- nine barrels x 24hrs/day x240 days x 5 years equals, what 250,000 barrel/hours?
In all those hours I can probably count a dozen or less blowouts. So I am talking about the 12lb units. I don't believe for a second any smaller Lortone units are meant for long-term or hard use- they are strictly hobby units- mini motors, o-rings for belts, nylon bushings on shaft ends, etc.
TR, from the looks of your shop I am going to guess you pay a lot of attention to detail. I'm envious. And I'm sure there are a hundred valid methods used in rock tumbling that can all produce acceptable, maybe even spectacular results. So when I say how I tumble rocks I don't mean to be dismissive of those using other methods- I just think some things don't make a nickel's worth of difference in the end.
I never use kitty litter, plastic pellets, ceramic pellets, or purified water. Heck, half the time I just dip a bucket in my pool and pour it in- dead bees, pollen, pine needles, whatever. I never use any kind of soap (except on obsidian)and never have a final wash cycle. Most of the time I don't even worry too much about washing the rocks before I start them on rough. I never "burb" the barrels- never seen a need to. I realize all this sounds like a barbarian at the gates of rock tumbling, but I would put my results up against anyone. Except obsidian. That's rocket science to me.
Here's what I do. I use one cup of 60/90 per 12lb barrel. I fill the barrel to the top, shake it to settle it down, then fill again to the top. No need to calculate fill height to three decimal places, because in 24 hrs the rocks have ground down to your 3/4 level. Water to an inch or so below the rim. I make sure the lip on the barrel where the lid seats is clean of dirt, pine needles, grit, etc. If its wet it doesn't matter. Seating the lid is maybe critical as sometimes the barrels are slightly out of round at the top. I use my upper body weight on the lid to make sure it snaps down. If the rocks are on the large size I may throw in a cup of smaller rocks. I drain all my barrels thru a 1/2" mesh gold panners type sieve and catch them in a fine mesh screen below. These are what I use instead of pellets and ceramics. I tap the metal lid on with a rubber mallet, and hand-tighten the little nut just hand tight. I suspect the very few blowouts I had were a result of me being careless.
I run 60/90 for 3 weeks. I never touch the barrels during this time, never check them. Then 600 for one week. Then to the vibe for 800AO and final. I used to do the 60/90, 220, 400, 600 cycle but one day my vibe said to me "Not necessary- I got this." Seriously, all those steps are not necessary.
In sum, I would dump the small Lortones, pretty much ignore the fill instructions, take care with the lid/gasket installation, and I doubt you will have any problems. Lortone has sold a billion of these units and if they were deficient the market would have had its say. I love them, and have found them very reliable- again, the larger units.
|
|
|
Post by TheRock on Nov 12, 2018 16:29:57 GMT -5
WoW mikeinsjc That's quite a write up! I have run the tumblers for two weeks now since the blow out and all is fine. To be honest I think I had the barrel to full. I know it's not Rocket Science and am glad I think I have it solved I do like the Lortone's as I do the Thumler's. Thanks for your thoughts on this!
|
|
|
Post by arghvark on Jan 3, 2019 8:23:15 GMT -5
Read this thread with great interest and learned a lot. Have read about blowouts/leaks and am paranoid about them since barrel-spew would be kinda catastrophic where I have my tumblers set up. Will get some drip pans just in case; really like that idea. That's a forehead-slapper, as in "why didn't I think of that?"
I have a twin 3lb Lortone and a twin 6lb Lortone. Only about a year and a half of nonstop running, but never a blowout or leak. I do wash my rocks as most of them are self collected and some even have desert lichen on them.
One thought occurred to me that I didn't see me mentioned. Could temperature change be having any effect? I flush loads with HOT water to heat up the stones before adding water/grit/used slurry and use hot water before closing up. Even in the summer when my garage reaches 90°+, I never observe bulging bottoms; they are actually slightly concave, and in winter when the garage reaches near freezing the bottoms are really sucked in. I'm telling myself this actually aids that less-than-ideal Lortone seal as well as helping to prevent small debris from being forced into the juncture between lip and lid.
Perhaps if the stones were cold and cold water was added when loaded, the temperature change could have contributed to any pressure increase caused by other mechanisms?
Argh
Edit: Amazing shop; a joy to behold!
|
|
|
Post by glennz01 on Jan 13, 2019 2:11:47 GMT -5
I had my 40 lb lost one blowout once... same with my tumblers 12 lb... both reasons the same... gasket was too thin and finally got eaten away
|
|