jabomb9
off to a rocking start
Member since December 2018
Posts: 6
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Post by jabomb9 on Jan 7, 2019 11:49:12 GMT -5
Hello, I finished my first stage of tumbling and am happy with the results so far. I cleaned them very well, and discarded s few that I think should be ran in stage one again. I got plastic pellets, but found out it seems like those are needed for the last two stages, not the first two. So I got some ceramic media for the second stage, but I’m wondering how much to put in? Just enough to fill the barrel up to 2/3-3/4 full with rocks and media?
Thanks!
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Jan 7, 2019 12:35:09 GMT -5
Rotary or Vibrating tumbler?
Neither ceramic or plastic pellets should really be used in stage one in either type of tumbler. If a filler is needed to bring up the level of stage one then adding small rocks is preferred. All stages after stage one in a rotary can be plastic pellets or ceramics. If using plastic pellets you will need to use different pellets for each stage because they hold grit in them. They can be used for several batches but always the same pellets for the same grit. Ceramic pellets can be used in rotary and vibe tumblers and those can move on from stage to stage with the rocks.
Where did you get your ceramic pellets? I only ask because there are different types and some are not recommended for tumbling.
Chuck
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jabomb9
off to a rocking start
Member since December 2018
Posts: 6
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Post by jabomb9 on Jan 7, 2019 12:40:47 GMT -5
Sorry, it’s a rotary Lortone QT6 tumbler. And I didn’t mean to make it sound like I was using media in stage one, I wasn’t. I have Polly Plastics ceramic media and plastic pellets from amazon - would those be okay?
Also, should o be running some sort of wash cycle between stages in the tumbler? I have washed it out really well, but I’m super OCD and am trying to do it correctly.
Sorry for all the questions, I’ve looked up videos and read lots of tutorials, but still have questions. Like I said, I just want to do it right! Thanks for all the help!
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Jan 7, 2019 12:56:36 GMT -5
Sorry, it’s a rotary Lortone QT6 tumbler. And I didn’t mean to make it sound like I was using media in stage one, I wasn’t. I have Polly Plastics ceramic media and plastic pellets from amazon - would those be okay? Also, should o be running some sort of wash cycle between stages in the tumbler? I have washed it out really well, but I’m super OCD and am trying to do it correctly. Sorry for all the questions, I’ve looked up videos and read lots of tutorials, but still have questions. Like I said, I just want to do it right! Thanks for all the help! Plastic pellets do not really matter from source to source but some ceramic pellets actual have grit embedded in them. I have only used the pellets that the rock shed sells for tumbling so I am not familiar with the ones you have. I think jamesp has posted in the past about types not to use. As for running a wash cycle between stages that is personal preference. Some folks do and some folks don't (I think more don't including myself). As a newbie it may be worth it if it gives you some peace of mind. It certainly will not hurt anything. Chuck
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jabomb9
off to a rocking start
Member since December 2018
Posts: 6
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Post by jabomb9 on Jan 7, 2019 13:03:18 GMT -5
Great, thanks for the reply. So just making sure I use media to fill the tumbler up to the 3/4 full with rock, media, water, and grit right?
And I’m not super set on a wash run, but out of curiosity, how do people do them? Just water?
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Jan 7, 2019 13:45:53 GMT -5
Great, thanks for the reply. So just making sure I use media to fill the tumbler up to the 3/4 full with rock, media, water, and grit right? And I’m not super set on a wash run, but out of curiosity, how do people do them? Just water? Stages 2-5 for me are done in a vibe and while I do not do an actual wash run I do pop the lid and add about 1/2 cup of water and a squirt of dawn dish soap for 10 minutes at the end of each run. That just speeds up the clean outs by requiring less rinsing. I did not do that back in my rotary days. Rocks and media to 75 percent full line. Water to the bottom of the top layer of rocks. Should not be able to see water on top. Grit last then seal up. Chuck
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Post by aDave on Jan 7, 2019 14:59:50 GMT -5
Great, thanks for the reply. So just making sure I use media to fill the tumbler up to the 3/4 full with rock, media, water, and grit right? And I’m not super set on a wash run, but out of curiosity, how do people do them? Just water? I'm only using rotary tumblers, and I do incorporate a wash run/burnish before and after my polish stage. I started to do the one before the polish stage when I had some rocks that looked like there might have been some trapped grit in some fractures. I didn't want to take the chance of there being contamination then, and I continue to do it out of habit. If rocks are "perfect," in that there are no flaws whatsoever, trapped grit isn't an issue. But, some of my most favorite stuff to tumble often develops pits, so this pre-polish wash is a precaution I take. Some people will clean with brushes to get rid of the trapped grit, so there's really no wrong way to do this. It will really boil down to how you develop your own routine. Following my polish stage, I do a "burnish" stage. This helps to remove any polish/film on the rocks which may take away from the shine. A burnish stage will not fix a sub-par polish stage - it is really only for cleaning. For both of these steps, I do the same thing - I use 2 Tbsp of Borax in a 4 lb barrel (water filled only) and tumble the rocks for 4 hours. I've found 4 hours to be acceptable; some may do this for longer. Since you have a 6 lb barrel, maybe try 3 Tbsp of Borax. FWIW, I happen to use plastic pellets in all stages after coarse, including the two burnish stages I do. I'm curious...how did you manage your coarse stage with the one barrel? Are you running it all together until you're happy with all of the rocks and are now looking to move those along? I only ask, as I'm interested to see how long you ran it and if you added rocks to offset the material loss through that stage. If you are pulling the rocks as one complete batch (from start to finish of that stage), how much space do those rocks now take up in that barrel? If you haven't gathered yet, many of us do our coarse stage in a larger tumbler, and we continually run that stage by pulling rocks that are ready to move on and add new rough to offset material loss and what was pulled. When enough rocks are gathered for the next stage(s), those stages are often done in a different tumbler.
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Post by Drummond Island Rocks on Jan 7, 2019 18:39:27 GMT -5
I should have added that my reason for not doing a wash cycle is because I am usually very thorough about not letting any rocks with flaws get past my stage one. When tumbling rocks in stage 2-5 that have flaws like voids and crevices a wash cycle and/or hand cleaning of rocks between cycles is required.
Chuck
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jabomb9
off to a rocking start
Member since December 2018
Posts: 6
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Post by jabomb9 on Jan 7, 2019 23:25:55 GMT -5
Great, thanks for the reply. So just making sure I use media to fill the tumbler up to the 3/4 full with rock, media, water, and grit right? And I’m not super set on a wash run, but out of curiosity, how do people do them? Just water? I'm only using rotary tumblers, and I do incorporate a wash run/burnish before and after my polish stage. I started to do the one before the polish stage when I had some rocks that looked like there might have been some trapped grit in some fractures. I didn't want to take the chance of there being contamination then, and I continue to do it out of habit. If rocks are "perfect," in that there are no flaws whatsoever, trapped grit isn't an issue. But, some of my most favorite stuff to tumble often develops pits, so this pre-polish wash is a precaution I take. Some people will clean with brushes to get rid of the trapped grit, so there's really no wrong way to do this. It will really boil down to how you develop your own routine. Following my polish stage, I do a "burnish" stage. This helps to remove any polish/film on the rocks which may take away from the shine. A burnish stage will not fix a sub-par polish stage - it is really only for cleaning. For both of these steps, I do the same thing - I use 2 Tbsp of Borax in a 4 lb barrel (water filled only) and tumble the rocks for 4 hours. I've found 4 hours to be acceptable; some may do this for longer. Since you have a 6 lb barrel, maybe try 3 Tbsp of Borax. FWIW, I happen to use plastic pellets in all stages after coarse, including the two burnish stages I do. I'm curious...how did you manage your coarse stage with the one barrel? Are you running it all together until you're happy with all of the rocks and are now looking to move those along? I only ask, as I'm interested to see how long you ran it and if you added rocks to offset the material loss through that stage. If you are pulling the rocks as one complete batch (from start to finish of that stage), how much space do those rocks now take up in that barrel? If you haven't gathered yet, many of us do our coarse stage in a larger tumbler, and we continually run that stage by pulling rocks that are ready to move on and add new rough to offset material loss and what was pulled. When enough rocks are gathered for the next stage(s), those stages are often done in a different tumbler. I’m only very new to the hobby and haven’t ever really thought of that last part about only using one barrel. I ran my first stage for 9 days and am very happy with the results. Not sure if the pros would be or not, but I cleaned everything well with brushes and looked at all the rocks. I set aside ones that still had rough spots, pourous areas, or fractures/ledges with trapped grit. I figured they’ll need more time in stage one, so I’ll jjst run those on stage one again with my next batch. That’s why I got the ceramic media because I need to add some volume to make up for the handful of rocks I took out. Which leads me to my next question. I have read tbag the rule of thumb for grit is 2tbsp of grit per pound of rock. I’m assuming that’s just that - per pound of rock and not per pound of rock AND media? Or is there a better way? I got this tumbler really to clean my coins as I’m an avid metal detector, but don’t need to do that that often, so figured I’d try and pick up this hobby a little too. Looking like I might have to get one more though.
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kskid
Cave Dweller
Member since July 2014
Posts: 98
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Post by kskid on Jan 8, 2019 0:01:32 GMT -5
IMHO there's no need to buy a second tumbler (yet). Some members run a continuous rough grind, pulling individual rocks as they are ready to move on and adding more to keep the barrel full. This method insures that the barrel goes into the intermediate stages full. That is in contrast to filling the barrel once and running from start to finish. The full rough barrel isn't full in the rest of the stages. Personally, when I have enough "ready to move on" rocks to fill the barrel almost full (ie, slightly more full than normal) I pull the "not ready to move on rocks" and save them for the next rough batch. I fill the barrel with the "ready to move on" rocks and go through the remaining stages to completion. I have more time and patience than money, so I use the same tumbler for everything. However... many of us magically acquire rough faster than we can get it polished & end up buying another or a larger machine when we can't stand the ever increasing pile of rough waiting to be tumbled. Then different stages can be run simultaneously. Speaking for myself again, I found that trying to keep two machines going got to be more like a chore than a hobby. That may change when I retire. I marvel at the members who have stacks of tumblers going full time.
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Post by aDave on Jan 8, 2019 0:02:10 GMT -5
I’m only very new to the hobby and haven’t ever really thought of that last part about only using one barrel. I ran my first stage for 9 days and am very happy with the results. Not sure if the pros would be or not, but I cleaned everything well with brushes and looked at all the rocks. I set aside ones that still had rough spots, pourous areas, or fractures/ledges with trapped grit. I figured they’ll need more time in stage one, so I’ll jjst run those on stage one again with my next batch. That’s why I got the ceramic media because I need to add some volume to make up for the handful of rocks I took out. Which leads me to my next question. I have read tbag the rule of thumb for grit is 2tbsp of grit per pound of rock. I’m assuming that’s just that - per pound of rock and not per pound of rock AND media? Or is there a better way? I got this tumbler really to clean my coins as I’m an avid metal detector, but don’t need to do that that often, so figured I’d try and pick up this hobby a little too. Looking like I might have to get one more though. At the end of the day, you have to be happy with what you get, and that's all that really matters. To be honest, however, 9 days is a pretty short time for a coarse stage run of rocks. Then again, what are you tumbling? If the rocks are excessively soft (5-6 on the Mohs Scale) you might see some decent shaping starting to occur. The flip side is that rocks that soft are exceedingly difficult to get a polish on, and they usually are not recommended for new folks in the hobby. Satisfactory results can be obtained with agates and jaspers that run in the 7.0-8.0 hardness range, but they usually take longer to shape. And, just as a reminder, all of your shaping will take place in the coarse stage. So, what you're essentially looking at now is what your rocks will look like (in terms of shape and flaws) at the end of the polish stage. Heck, you might want to take some of those "bad" rocks you pulled, add them back in, and let your stuff roll for a bit longer to see what changes occur. Just throwing that out there as someone who will see rocks in a coarse stage for weeks, if not months depending on the material. To answer your grit question, 2 TBSP per pound is a bit much, IMHO. I'm somewhere around 1.3 Tbsp per pound at all stages except polish. For polish, I'm at around 3/4 Tbsp per pound. And, that "pound" measurement is based upon the listed barrel capacity in pounds and not the actual weight of the material that you're placing inside the barrel. So, in your case, your "poundage" would be figured at 6 lbs, no matter how much rock/media is in the barrel. I'd suggest holding off on buying a second tumbler right away, just so you can see if you like the hobby or not. Having only one barrel and tumbler has its limitations, but it's still very workable. My first tumbler was a Lortone 45C, and I worked with that one alone for quite a while. Besides, waiting and learning will afford you time to educate yourself about vibe tumblers versus rotary tumblers, thus providing you an opportunity to make an informed purchase decision should that time come.
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kskid
Cave Dweller
Member since July 2014
Posts: 98
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Post by kskid on Jan 8, 2019 0:13:52 GMT -5
Dang! All that and I forgot to answer your question... I use the same amount of grit, same amount of water, same period between cleanouts for the same size barrel. Variables make me crazy so I do it the same every time. That way I know any problems that pop up are because of the rocks I put in. But keep in mind that I tumble a variety of found rocks together, so my method is probably different from the folks who do different types/hardness of rocks separately. Vive la difference!
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,155
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Post by jamesp on Jan 8, 2019 5:51:57 GMT -5
Sorry, it’s a rotary Lortone QT6 tumbler. And I didn’t mean to make it sound like I was using media in stage one, I wasn’t. I have Polly Plastics ceramic media and plastic pellets from amazon - would those be okay? Also, should o be running some sort of wash cycle between stages in the tumbler? I have washed it out really well, but I’m super OCD and am trying to do it correctly. Sorry for all the questions, I’ve looked up videos and read lots of tutorials, but still have questions. Like I said, I just want to do it right! Thanks for all the help! Plastic pellets do not really matter from source to source but some ceramic pellets actual have grit embedded in them. I have only used the pellets that the rock shed sells for tumbling so I am not familiar with the ones you have. I think jamesp has posted in the past about types not to use. As for running a wash cycle between stages that is personal preference. Some folks do and some folks don't (I think more don't including myself). As a newbie it may be worth it if it gives you some peace of mind. It certainly will not hurt anything. Chuck Chuck is spot on. You should only tumble with non-abrasive ceramic media for tumbling rocks unless you want to use abrasive ceramic media for a specific application. Tumbling supply companies sell polishing ceramic media or "non-abrasive" ceramic media because it makes great filler for all stages including polish stage. Polyurethane hoppers suggested if using abrasive ceramic media in a vibe. Most vibes used for rock tumbling are polyethylene and are vulnerable to wear when using abrasive ceramic media. Polyurethane is highly abrasive resistant, polyethylene not so much.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,155
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Post by jamesp on Jan 8, 2019 7:03:44 GMT -5
IMHO there's no need to buy a second tumbler (yet). Some members run a continuous rough grind, pulling individual rocks as they are ready to move on and adding more to keep the barrel full. This method insures that the barrel goes into the intermediate stages full. That is in contrast to filling the barrel once and running from start to finish. The full rough barrel isn't full in the rest of the stages. Personally, when I have enough "ready to move on" rocks to fill the barrel almost full (ie, slightly more full than normal) I pull the "not ready to move on rocks" and save them for the next rough batch. I fill the barrel with the "ready to move on" rocks and go through the remaining stages to completion. I have more time and patience than money, so I use the same tumbler for everything. However... many of us magically acquire rough faster than we can get it polished & end up buying another or a larger machine when we can't stand the ever increasing pile of rough waiting to be tumbled. Then different stages can be run simultaneously. Speaking for myself again, I found that trying to keep two machines going got to be more like a chore than a hobby. That may change when I retire. I marvel at the members who have stacks of tumblers going full time. "The mass warm weather rotary tumbling method" or semiretirement plan. I do have a large tumbler that holds up to 8 barrels totaling over 100 pounds kskid and I became a 'warm weather tumbler'. It stays in an open shed and is exposed to winter temps and is no fun to perform clean outs for different grits during winter months. In recent years I have been filling all 8 barrels with new rocks and only coarse grinding them in a mass batch during the warm season. The volume reduces from 8 barrels to 5 barrels by the time shaping is complete in about 8 weeks. Include time for grading/grinding defective rocks. I continually fill the empty barrels with fresh rocks till cold weather arrives. Then the coarse shaped rocks all get a one last rotary run in a finer grit to prepare for vibe. A thorough mass cleaning happens here. This mass operation simplifies everything because no stringent cleanliness is required for different grits. . End result is a big pile of shaped rocks continually feeding the little vibe located in a clean climate controlled building located a distance away that runs throughout the year. So the rotary capacity for coarse stage is 100 pounds and the vibe capacity is only 6 pounds not counting vibe media. Having a lot of rotaries has been a benefit since the shaping stage takes so long. For every pound of vibe finishing capacity there is 16 pounds of rotary shaping capacity for this seasonal tumbling method, 16:1 ratio. I must say this seasonal tumbling has made tumbling much more simple and pleasant. Coarse grind is just plain nasty anyway. Best kept separate from finishing operation. It generates most of the waste and has the highest chance of contamination of finer grits. Why raise swine in the kitchen ?
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Post by fernwood on Jan 8, 2019 8:34:27 GMT -5
jamesp any chance you have some photos of ceramic media that contains and does not contain grit? Just thinking this might be helpful. I have two types of ceramics. One type is smaller and has been through many stages of tumbling. The other is larger. Some I have used, some is new. Thanks.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,155
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Post by jamesp on Jan 8, 2019 10:55:52 GMT -5
jamesp any chance you have some photos of ceramic media that contains and does not contain grit? Just thinking this might be helpful. I have two types of ceramics. One type is smaller and has been through many stages of tumbling. The other is larger. Some I have used, some is new. Thanks. Guess what fernwood. I do have several different ceramic media's. I could supply photos but it will not help because there is so many different ceramic media compositions, colors, sizes and shapes. If your ceramic media has black or grey specks in it, it likely has silicon carbide fused into it. In most cases, white is used for polishing or non-abrasive media but no guarantee. There are many manufacturers and they use so many color coding systems for their own brand. If you have zirconia media you can most likely do a density test on it. If it is like 50% heavier for same volume of alumina ceramic media then it is likely zirconia but not for sure. Basically if you have rogue ceramic media and don't know it's origin and specification you are pretty much screwed. Just as if you had a 5 pound bucket of un-named AO 1000. Is it AO 500 ? AO 1000 ? AO 800 AO 1200 ? AO 4000. I could not tell you, neither can the next guy. At least you could use a microscope on powdered abrasive with a micro-comparator and ID it. But ceramic media can not be ID'ed with a microscope. It can be fused polish particles, or fused 220 particles or whatever. If it were say AO 220 particles and it was run in a tumbler with polish or AO 2000 it could be very smooth as if it were polish media. You got a sling shot ?, excellent use for un-named ceramic media. About all of it is heavy/dense and makes great ammo. You can do a search on 'how many different ceramics exist' and you will be blown away by how many different ones exist. Granted probably 90% of it is fused alumina, i.e. fused aluminum oxide. Even silicon carbide is classified as a ceramic and they do make almost pure SiC tumbling media. Best answer ?
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Post by fernwood on Jan 8, 2019 13:34:56 GMT -5
jamesp Lol or using unlabeled ceramic to kill critters. Only asked because this has come up on the RTH Facebook page. Many newbies there who are not the mad scientist I am. Will keep using what I have. The small pre-polished ones are working great. Have not used them in final polish. They are very smooth, similar to how rocks come from pre-polish. The new, larger pieces I have only used with coarse. Maybe send you a photo via PM. OK, I am guilty of asking questions here and relaying that info to others on the Facebook page, but always encourage them to join the forum, which many have done. They have even asked questions here! I was never intimidated by others that much when joining RTH. Just asked questions and spent hours going through old threads. Now you are stuck with me, lol.
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gatorflash1
spending too much on rocks
Active in Delaware Mineralogical Society, Cabchon Grinding and Polishing, 2 Thumlers B's and a UV-18
Member since October 2018
Posts: 375
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Post by gatorflash1 on Jan 8, 2019 14:04:39 GMT -5
I'm not the best tumbler by a long shot but I have found that using a mixed nonabrasive ceramic media doesn't adversely affect my results using a Thumler Tumbler Model B 15 lb. The mixed nonabrasive ceramic stuff is probably harder than any rock you are tumbling which allows you to clean and reuse the ceramic media over again, and in the same or different stages. It seems to do a good job of spreading the SIC grit around during steps 1 and 2 grit in my barrel and all my tumbles and media come out well coated with slurry after steps 1 and 2. I use this rather than tossing in a bunch of little pebbles, etc. into the mix in order to balance out the load because any pebbles are probably much softer than any nonabrasive ceramic tumbling media. As to the amount to use I just eyeball the amount of ceramic media needed to balance the load in my tumbler. Now this is just my spin on using nonabrasive ceramic media and I'm not claiming it is the best thing since sliced bread, just that it works for me.
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kskid
Cave Dweller
Member since July 2014
Posts: 98
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Post by kskid on Jan 11, 2019 22:49:17 GMT -5
IMHO there's no need to buy a second tumbler (yet). Some members run a continuous rough grind, pulling individual rocks as they are ready to move on and adding more to keep the barrel full. This method insures that the barrel goes into the intermediate stages full. That is in contrast to filling the barrel once and running from start to finish. The full rough barrel isn't full in the rest of the stages. Personally, when I have enough "ready to move on" rocks to fill the barrel almost full (ie, slightly more full than normal) I pull the "not ready to move on rocks" and save them for the next rough batch. I fill the barrel with the "ready to move on" rocks and go through the remaining stages to completion. I have more time and patience than money, so I use the same tumbler for everything. However... many of us magically acquire rough faster than we can get it polished & end up buying another or a larger machine when we can't stand the ever increasing pile of rough waiting to be tumbled. Then different stages can be run simultaneously. Speaking for myself again, I found that trying to keep two machines going got to be more like a chore than a hobby. That may change when I retire. I marvel at the members who have stacks of tumblers going full time. "The mass warm weather rotary tumbling method" or semiretirement plan. I do have a large tumbler that holds up to 8 barrels totaling over 100 pounds kskid and I became a 'warm weather tumbler'. It stays in an open shed and is exposed to winter temps and is no fun to perform clean outs for different grits during winter months. In recent years I have been filling all 8 barrels with new rocks and only coarse grinding them in a mass batch during the warm season. The volume reduces from 8 barrels to 5 barrels by the time shaping is complete in about 8 weeks. Include time for grading/grinding defective rocks. I continually fill the empty barrels with fresh rocks till cold weather arrives. Then the coarse shaped rocks all get a one last rotary run in a finer grit to prepare for vibe. A thorough mass cleaning happens here. This mass operation simplifies everything because no stringent cleanliness is required for different grits. . End result is a big pile of shaped rocks continually feeding the little vibe located in a clean climate controlled building located a distance away that runs throughout the year. So the rotary capacity for coarse stage is 100 pounds and the vibe capacity is only 6 pounds not counting vibe media. Having a lot of rotaries has been a benefit since the shaping stage takes so long. For every pound of vibe finishing capacity there is 16 pounds of rotary shaping capacity for this seasonal tumbling method, 16:1 ratio. I must say this seasonal tumbling has made tumbling much more simple and pleasant. Coarse grind is just plain nasty anyway. Best kept separate from finishing operation. It generates most of the waste and has the highest chance of contamination of finer grits. Why raise swine in the kitchen ? I never thought of doing it that way. What a system! Thanks for sharing.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,155
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Post by jamesp on Jan 12, 2019 8:43:06 GMT -5
jamesp Lol or using unlabeled ceramic to kill critters. Only asked because this has come up on the RTH Facebook page. Many newbies there who are not the mad scientist I am. Will keep using what I have. The small pre-polished ones are working great. Have not used them in final polish. They are very smooth, similar to how rocks come from pre-polish. The new, larger pieces I have only used with coarse. Maybe send you a photo via PM. OK, I am guilty of asking questions here and relaying that info to others on the Facebook page, but always encourage them to join the forum, which many have done. They have even asked questions here! I was never intimidated by others that much when joining RTH. Just asked questions and spent hours going through old threads. Now you are stuck with me, lol. The RTH tumblers are an experienced bunch. Lots of great knowledge to share here. I never could get into the concept of using any media unless absolutely necessary and always researched and used slurries to accomplish the same result. I always had more satisfaction filling that valuable barrel or hopper volume with 100% pretty rocks except 25% media during the polish run of glass. This way more rocks were finished in the end and less abrasives being ground up by media.
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