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Post by Rockindad on Apr 20, 2019 10:58:46 GMT -5
Disclaimer: Please take no offense, this is not an attack on anyone's beliefs, we are just curious.
We have been unsuccessful in finding anything but the oft-repeated forum posts containing "grit breaks down by half every 24 hours in a vibratory tumbler". Looking for another source like a book, article, member here who has the means to verify this, etc. We are not necessarily doubting this is the case but do not take it as gospel either. Reason for asking is that we wanted to run some experiments and are looking for some verifiable information before we put a plan together.
Just wondering if this is something that was thrown out there by one or two people and it spread like a wildfire or if it was actually documented somewhere.
Thanks, Al & A.J.
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pizzano
Cave Dweller
Member since February 2018
Posts: 1,390
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Post by pizzano on Apr 20, 2019 11:52:05 GMT -5
Disclaimer: Please take no offense, this is not an attack on anyone's beliefs, we are just curious. We have been unsuccessful in finding anything but the oft-repeated forum posts containing "grit breaks down by half every 24 hours in a vibratory tumbler". Looking for another source like a book, article, member here who has the means to verify this, etc. We are not necessarily doubting this is the case but do not take it as gospel either. Reason for asking is that we wanted to run some experiments and are looking for some verifiable information before we put a plan together. Just wondering if this is something that was thrown out there by one or two people and it spread like a wildfire or if it was actually documented somewhere. Thanks, Al & A.J. "Searching For The Truth"............?.......who's truth......?
Without sounding cynical, you'd like to "run some experiments"........?.........but seek "verifiable information" prior to putting a plan together.....!
What type of Verifiable Information are you seeking.........by verifiable, do you seek information related to methods, material and equipment you can personally duplicate with your experiments........?
To what end are you exploring........personal satisfaction, vindication, research and development, procedural knowledge.......?
The subject matter you are exploring is vast. As you may have already learned, there are so many variables most who have explored this matter here at RTH and have casually "published" their findings, generally regard the information as a "rule of thumb" application.......!........few if any have used "scientific" methods or procedures to verify, rather more subjective speculation based on their own trial and error results........while occasionally, casually referencing verifiable (cite) scientific publications.
Just a friendly suggestion........start running your "experiments" and report back here with your research, development and procedural methods......many of us would be interested in the information provided.........and how we could possibly apply those results to our own applications......!
Just a thought.....!
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Post by Rockindad on Apr 20, 2019 12:02:10 GMT -5
Disclaimer: Please take no offense, this is not an attack on anyone's beliefs, we are just curious. We have been unsuccessful in finding anything but the oft-repeated forum posts containing "grit breaks down by half every 24 hours in a vibratory tumbler". Looking for another source like a book, article, member here who has the means to verify this, etc. We are not necessarily doubting this is the case but do not take it as gospel either. Reason for asking is that we wanted to run some experiments and are looking for some verifiable information before we put a plan together. Just wondering if this is something that was thrown out there by one or two people and it spread like a wildfire or if it was actually documented somewhere. Thanks, Al & A.J. "Searching For The Truth"............?.......who's truth......?
Without sounding cynical, you'd like to "run some experiments"........?.........but seek "verifiable information" prior to putting a plan together.....!
What type of Verifiable Information are you seeking.........by verifiable, do you seek information related to methods, material and equipment you can personally duplicate with your experiments........?
To what end are you exploring........personal satisfaction, vindication, research and development, procedural knowledge.......?
The subject matter you are exploring is vast. As you may have already learned, there are so many variables most who have explored this matter here at RTH and have casually "published" their findings, generally regard the information as a "rule of thumb" application.......!........few if any have used "scientific" methods or procedures to verify, rather more subjective speculation based on their own trial and error results........while occasionally, casually referencing verifiable (cite) scientific publications.
Just a friendly suggestion........start running your "experiments" and report back here with your research, development and procedural methods......many of us would be interested in the information provided.........and how we could possibly apply those results to our own applications......!
Just a thought.....!
Not really sure why you responded like that as I think the original post is pretty clear. In any given field as research/experiments are conducted what has been learned in the past is being applied to the present and future. Al
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pizzano
Cave Dweller
Member since February 2018
Posts: 1,390
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Post by pizzano on Apr 20, 2019 12:51:03 GMT -5
"In any given field as research/experiments are conducted what has been learned in the past is being applied to the present and future."
True........however, your request seems vague, lacks specifics other than a reference to one general thread related to "grit breakdown".........as eluded to in my response, to better help qualify your quest..........since the subject matter is so vast, what exactly is your intent....?
Are you looking for information to help you establish an experiment protocol. Are you looking for information related to tools, materials, ect. Are you looking for information related to procedures and variables.
Are you more interested developing new and unexplored methods, materials and procedures. Are you more interested in re-discovery of previous application, material, procedures and variables. Are you more interested in establishing a universal "base-line" set of materials and applications.
On the surface, the "background" reference to "not taken as Gospel either", seems to suggest a speculative apprehension to the potential "information' that may be available here at RTH...........not that it does not have value, but your request seems to require a more thorough exploration of "science proven" reference material that could take the casual observer a considerable amount of time and effort to accumulate..........just a casual observation.
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Post by aDave on Apr 20, 2019 13:19:22 GMT -5
Disclaimer: Please take no offense, this is not an attack on anyone's beliefs, we are just curious. We have been unsuccessful in finding anything but the oft-repeated forum posts containing "grit breaks down by half every 24 hours in a vibratory tumbler". Looking for another source like a book, article, member here who has the means to verify this, etc. We are not necessarily doubting this is the case but do not take it as gospel either. Reason for asking is that we wanted to run some experiments and are looking for some verifiable information before we put a plan together. Just wondering if this is something that was thrown out there by one or two people and it spread like a wildfire or if it was actually documented somewhere. Thanks, Al & A.J. Never have seen anything authoritative, and some quick internet searching yields nothing as you have probably noted. Further, FWIW, I've seen it expressed here that the breakdown in a vibe is by half in 12 hours by user connrock, and one of his posts about it is from 2004. I will acknowledge I've seen that 24 hour number as well. However, if I was asked to make a bet as to which number may be more correct, I think I'd tend to lean toward the 12 hour figure. I'm basing that on what I see coming out of my Lot-O in the AO 500 stage. Based upon different levels of shine over the 500 run, I'm more inclined to believe that 24 hours (and the corresponding grit breakdown by half) is just too long for the shine I see on the rocks over multiple days when compared to (theoretical) grit size at 12 hour intervals. I know, anecdotal and not scientific by any stretch.
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Post by Rockindad on Apr 20, 2019 14:03:24 GMT -5
"In any given field as research/experiments are conducted what has been learned in the past is being applied to the present and future."
True........however, your request seems vague, lacks specifics other than a reference to one general thread related to "grit breakdown".........as eluded to in my response, to better help qualify your quest..........since the subject matter is so vast, what exactly is your intent....?
Are you looking for information to help you establish an experiment protocol. Are you looking for information related to tools, materials, ect. Are you looking for information related to procedures and variables.
Are you more interested developing new and unexplored methods, materials and procedures. Are you more interested in re-discovery of previous application, material, procedures and variables. Are you more interested in establishing a universal "base-line" set of materials and applications.
On the surface, the "background" reference to "not taken as Gospel either", seems to suggest a speculative apprehension to the potential "information' that may be available here at RTH...........not that it does not have value, but your request seems to require a more thorough exploration of "science proven" reference material that could take the casual observer a considerable amount of time and effort to accumulate..........just a casual observation.
Seems like your looking for issues where there are not any. I never made a reference to a particular thread as you suggest by what is highlighted in your response. As to the rest of your response, it really does not matter why we are seeking this information does it? We are just curious to see if anyone here has come across this information or has verified it themselves. Respectfully, Al
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Post by Rockindad on Apr 20, 2019 14:08:28 GMT -5
Disclaimer: Please take no offense, this is not an attack on anyone's beliefs, we are just curious. We have been unsuccessful in finding anything but the oft-repeated forum posts containing "grit breaks down by half every 24 hours in a vibratory tumbler". Looking for another source like a book, article, member here who has the means to verify this, etc. We are not necessarily doubting this is the case but do not take it as gospel either. Reason for asking is that we wanted to run some experiments and are looking for some verifiable information before we put a plan together. Just wondering if this is something that was thrown out there by one or two people and it spread like a wildfire or if it was actually documented somewhere. Thanks, Al & A.J. Never have seen anything authoritative, and some quick internet searching yields nothing as you have probably noted. Further, FWIW, I've seen it expressed here that the breakdown in a vibe is by half in 12 hours by user connrock , and one of his posts about it is from 2004. I will acknowledge I've seen that 24 hour number as well. However, if I was asked to make a bet as to which number may be more correct, I think I'd tend to lean toward the 12 hour figure. I'm basing that on what I see coming out of my Lot-O in the AO 500 stage. Based upon different levels of shine over the 500 run, I'm more inclined to believe that 24 hours (and the corresponding grit breakdown by half) is just too long for the shine I see on the rocks over multiple days when compared to (theoretical) grit size at 12 hour intervals. I know, anecdotal and not scientific by any stretch. Thanks, we've probably seen a lot of the same stuff, I "lurked" on this forum for months before joining. This has been mentioned a lot in posts the past 14-15 years but mostly as a comment in passing in a thread not really dedicated to that subject. I know there are a lot of experimenters on this forum, just wondering if anyone had taken a closer look at this or even come across it in a book, etc. We have looked at some slides we made under a microscope but we are currently running 500AO and it is not powerful enough to tell us anything definitively. Al
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Post by Jugglerguy on Apr 20, 2019 16:28:56 GMT -5
I don’t know the answer to your question, but I think it varies according to the hardness of the material that you’re tumbling. Softer rocks won’t break the grit down as fast as harder materials. There are probably other variables too. So I don’t think there probably is a single answer. I think jamesp is probably the best guy to answer your question. I’m interested to see what you come up with after your experiment.
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Post by Rockindad on Apr 20, 2019 17:11:25 GMT -5
I don’t know the answer to your question, but I think it varies according to the hardness of the material that you’re tumbling. Softer rocks won’t break the grit down as fast as harder materials. There are probably other variables too. So I don’t think there probably is a single answer. I think jamesp is probably the best guy to answer your question. I’m interested to see what you come up with after your experiment. Agree 100% on the hardness of rocks playing a role, or even the use of a lot of ceramics. Was also wondering about the polish knowing that there are people who reuse it. After a two day run AO polish (14,000 grit) would be approaching +/- something in the ballpark of #61 Rapid Polish. Al
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Post by Jugglerguy on Apr 20, 2019 17:59:44 GMT -5
With a vibe, I see no reason to bother reusing polish. I use 1/2 teaspoon in my Lot-O. Even if I used really expensive polish, it wouldn’t be worth the hassle.
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pizzano
Cave Dweller
Member since February 2018
Posts: 1,390
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Post by pizzano on Apr 20, 2019 18:47:46 GMT -5
I don’t know the answer to your question, but I think it varies according to the hardness of the material that you’re tumbling. Softer rocks won’t break the grit down as fast as harder materials. There are probably other variables too. So I don’t think there probably is a single answer. I think jamesp is probably the best guy to answer your question. I’m interested to see what you come up with after your experiment. Agreed.....jamesp has extensive knowledge in this area. Suggest the OP click on his username, there are several threads and topic conversations James has helped many of us with related to grit and media breakdown.
Silly me, I was under the impression the OP was on a quest for knowledge with purpose and reason.........my bad...!
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Post by Jugglerguy on Apr 20, 2019 19:31:12 GMT -5
I don’t know the answer to your question, but I think it varies according to the hardness of the material that you’re tumbling. Softer rocks won’t break the grit down as fast as harder materials. There are probably other variables too. So I don’t think there probably is a single answer. I think jamesp is probably the best guy to answer your question. I’m interested to see what you come up with after your experiment. Agreed.....jamesp has extensive knowledge in this area. Suggest the OP click on his username, there are several threads and topic conversations James has helped many of us with related to grit and media breakdown.
Silly me, I was under the impression the OP was on a quest for knowledge with purpose and reason.........my bad...!
I don’t understand why you’re so offended by Rockindad’s question. I’ve wondered the exact same thing. I thought it was a reasonable question asked in a non-confrontational way.
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Post by Rockindad on Apr 20, 2019 20:35:15 GMT -5
I don’t know the answer to your question, but I think it varies according to the hardness of the material that you’re tumbling. Softer rocks won’t break the grit down as fast as harder materials. There are probably other variables too. So I don’t think there probably is a single answer. I think jamesp is probably the best guy to answer your question. I’m interested to see what you come up with after your experiment. Agreed.....jamesp has extensive knowledge in this area. Suggest the OP click on his username, there are several threads and topic conversations James has helped many of us with related to grit and media breakdown.
Silly me, I was under the impression the OP was on a quest for knowledge with purpose and reason.........my bad...!
Really do not understand what your problem is with this thread or me. As stated in the very first sentence of the original post we were unsuccessful in finding anything specific to this. I suggest, and prefer, that you avoid this thread. Rereading your responses here I wonder what I ever did to offend you as I do not believe we have had any contact previously. Al
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Post by Rockindad on Apr 20, 2019 20:36:15 GMT -5
Agreed.....jamesp has extensive knowledge in this area. Suggest the OP click on his username, there are several threads and topic conversations James has helped many of us with related to grit and media breakdown.
Silly me, I was under the impression the OP was on a quest for knowledge with purpose and reason.........my bad...!
I don’t understand why you’re so offended by Rockindad ’s question. I’ve wondered the exact same thing. I thought it was a reasonable question asked in a non-confrontational way. Thank you Rob. Absolutely no confrontation or disrespect meant. Al
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Post by wigglinrocks on Apr 20, 2019 21:04:47 GMT -5
Both Rob and Dave have made good points toward answering your question . I think there is no definitive answer to how much does the grit break down in a given amount of time . Different brands of vibes are not created equal , the same goes for different vibe loads .
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tomg
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2019
Posts: 103
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Post by tomg on Apr 20, 2019 22:51:45 GMT -5
Disclaimer: Please take no offense, this is not an attack on anyone's beliefs, we are just curious. We have been unsuccessful in finding anything but the oft-repeated forum posts containing "grit breaks down by half every 24 hours in a vibratory tumbler". Looking for another source like a book, article, member here who has the means to verify this, etc. We are not necessarily doubting this is the case but do not take it as gospel either. Reason for asking is that we wanted to run some experiments and are looking for some verifiable information before we put a plan together. Just wondering if this is something that was thrown out there by one or two people and it spread like a wildfire or if it was actually documented somewhere. Thanks, Al & A.J. "Searching For The Truth"............?.......who's truth......?
Without sounding cynical, you'd like to "run some experiments"........?.........but seek "verifiable information" prior to putting a plan together.....!
What type of Verifiable Information are you seeking.........by verifiable, do you seek information related to methods, material and equipment you can personally duplicate with your experiments........?
To what end are you exploring........personal satisfaction, vindication, research and development, procedural knowledge.......?
The subject matter you are exploring is vast. As you may have already learned, there are so many variables most who have explored this matter here at RTH and have casually "published" their findings, generally regard the information as a "rule of thumb" application.......!........few if any have used "scientific" methods or procedures to verify, rather more subjective speculation based on their own trial and error results........while occasionally, casually referencing verifiable (cite) scientific publications.
Just a friendly suggestion........start running your "experiments" and report back here with your research, development and procedural methods......many of us would be interested in the information provided.........and how we could possibly apply those results to our own applications......!
Just a thought.....!
What an ass. Why did you even respond to this post? No social life whatsoever?
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Wooferhound
Cave Dweller
Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,423
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Post by Wooferhound on Apr 21, 2019 7:22:29 GMT -5
When Grit is purchased it has been screened so all the particles are about the same size. As soon as you put it in the tumbler, the rocks crushing the grit will break it down. This action is Not Consistent, some of the grit will remain unchanged and some of it will become extremely fine. Not to mention that the grit also breaks down the rock and you are accumulating more fine grit created from that process as the slurry gets thicker. What you end up with is a Huge Range of grit & rock particles that does not correspond to a defined grit size anymore. You would need to dry out your used slurry, break up the clumps and screen the material yourself to get the Real Answer, and then that would be variable depending on your loads.
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Post by grumpybill on Apr 21, 2019 7:40:40 GMT -5
I agree with those who've written that there are too many variables to give a definitive answer. I'll use my experience with course grinding in a rotary to show why: I don't use a set amount of "time" to determine when to do cleanouts. I open the barrels every few days and rub some slurry between my fingers. If I feel grit, they run longer. If the slurry feels smooth/creamy, I do a cleanout. It can take anywhere from 4 days to 10 days to reach that smooth/creamy stage, even with the same barrel and the same type/amount of grit. The variables seem to be the types, sizes and weights of the loads.
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gatorflash1
spending too much on rocks
Active in Delaware Mineralogical Society, Cabchon Grinding and Polishing, 2 Thumlers B's and a UV-18
Member since October 2018
Posts: 375
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Post by gatorflash1 on Apr 21, 2019 8:24:02 GMT -5
I don’t know the answer to your question, but I think it varies according to the hardness of the material that you’re tumbling. Softer rocks won’t break the grit down as fast as harder materials. There are probably other variables too. So I don’t think there probably is a single answer. I think jamesp is probably the best guy to answer your question. I’m interested to see what you come up with after your experiment. I agree. There are so many variables that getting good consistent test results would not be easy. I think we all agree the grit breaks down when tumbling but don't really know the exact time frame. To do this experiment I'm thinking that you would have to begin with a large amount of a standard rock material, in a standard size, that you are trying to grind in a very controlled manner, for a specific amount of time, using only one machine size/type, and with a fixed amount of a certain type and size of grit, and water, and media material (all very carefully measured and weighted). You would also have to have a sensitive weight scale, and a certain number of sorting screens to measure/weigh the amount of material/grit sizes remaining in each screen after a standard period of time in the tumbler. You would need a good measuring microscope to determine from the screening results the approximate percentages of tumbling grit from rock dust/pieces, if you could tell the difference between the two. Using a rock material like a white quartz and a black SiC grit might help in this portion of measuring the results. This seems to me to be the hardest part of the test. If the weights of the grit and tumbling material differ than a centrifuge might be useful to separate the two. Or you could just use the old gold pan method of separation. Or you could just weigh the beginning and ending weight of the clean rocks to see how many ounces had been ground off and compare that to the amount of material left in your different size screens. The difference would be the amount of SiC grit left. It could be done, but it should be repeated several times to try to verify the results using a constant standard of testing methods and materials! Consistency and accuracy would be the key! Any variation of the variables will of course skew the finding of the test. rocktumbler.com/blog/what-is-silicon-carbide-grit/www.linkedin.com/pulse/whats-difference-aluminum-oxide-silicon-carbide-ceramic-iran-polishSounds like a good high school science project for the science fair.
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Post by Rockindad on Apr 21, 2019 8:50:08 GMT -5
Wooferhound, grumpybill, gatorflash1, I agree with there being a lot of variables as there are in many aspects of tumbling- rotary or vibe. Type of tumbler used, grit, hardness of rocks, how full is the load, slurry thickener use, etc. We tend to run a lot of ceramics, sometimes 70%-80%. I would think this would increase the rate of grit breakdown due to the hardness of the ceramics and the available surface area for contact to occur. We also frequently use thickeners to slow down the action in 500 and beyond as we tend to do a lot of softer materials and the UV-10 can get pretty aggressive. Was just fishing to see if anyone (with any kind of setup) had looked into this further. After spending along time reading post here before joining and seeing how much experimenting that has gone on it would not surprise me. Tons of good info here going back 15 years or so! Al
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