reynedrop
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since February 2020
Posts: 204
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Post by reynedrop on Apr 30, 2020 0:27:29 GMT -5
I KNOW this has been asked so many times. I’ve read several threads. I’d just like some personal help!
For the last three weeks (I think? I lost track but it’s definitely been 3 weeks and maybe even four or five), I’ve been running some various chalcedonies in my 3lb tumbler. I have a Lortone 33B, so for the first week or two, it ran in tandem with a barrel of some other chalcedonies in polish (or maybe even in pre-polish). I had hoped to be ready to move my pieces on into a medium grit by the time my other set was through. As I don’t have running water outdoors, i actually have four barrels that I use only for certain grits, so I won’t start another batch until this one is done running (I could probably use coarse and medium interchangeably? But I’m too scared 😂). So the timber is running only one 3 lb barrel.
So here’s the problem: only maybe 1/4 of the rocks have been arguably ready to “move on.” I’m getting super frustrated. They’ve been at this for probably over a month now? They’re back in coarse (60/90 rock shed). They seem to be grinding down SUPER slowly. I’ve been noticing a thick not-cement of “unused” grit (definitely not broken down to medium) at the bottom of the barrel, and inevitably a couple rocks are “stuck” in the mix when I clean out. I’m wondering if this may be signaling a problem? If my grit isn’t being used up, and my rocks aren’t really shaping much, there must be some problem.
I have looked at various other troubleshooting threads/advice.
For the first week, I don’t think I put in any super small pieces as I didn’t have any and husband didn’t want me smashing rocks on the concrete (we rent so it isn’t ours). So I put in some ceramic media. I got a shipment of something like 26 lbs of pretty small pieces, and for at least the last two weeks have swapped out the ceramics for the small pieces. Still having the issue- and my tiny pieces, while getting somewhat smaller, still are not really rounding.
Initially for my 3lb tumbler I was using 6tbsp of 60/90. After the first couple clean outs with unused grit, I thought maybe I was using too much and reduced it to maybe 4 or 5 tbsp. I clean out every week on Monday. I should keep better records but can’t change the past. I do know this: No matter what, same issue. Every. Single. Week.
I normally fill until the top layer of rocks is barely jutting out of the water. Last week (two Mondays ago), thinking maybe I just didn’t have enough water somehow, I admittedly filled more until all the rocks were just barely covered (maybe one piece was sticking out a bit). I went back to barely jutting this week.
Initially I started with maybe 2/3 of the barrel full and ceramic media “filled in the gaps” of the big rocks (but ultimately didn’t seem to change the “fill line,” if that makes sense). When I added in smaller rocks, I pulled out a few pieces that did seem well ground, so I also added in some additional bigger rocks. I would say it’s been at 70-75% full since then, with what seems like really insignificant volume loss for amount of time spent tumbling.
There is definitely some foam (nothing extreme, just some bubbles), and the water turns a significant muddy brown, so I know SOMETHING is going on. As I can’t wash-out the barrels outside I do see the grit as I wash (and most of it gets stuck in a bucket and dries into normal usable grit again). I would estimate, along with what does make it into the rock-washing bucket and actually dumped out, about 1/4 of the grit is left pretty much unused. Which means most of the grit is doing something. I’m just worried that maybe my “recipe” is off or there’s something else hindering my rock’s progress.
I REALLY want to get a good tumble out of these. I’m not opposed to longer tumbling and taking time, but Husband and I are moving most likely in July and I want to have them all done in another 8 weeks max.... but I also kind of wanted to be able to run at least one more, too, so I’m counting down the weeks I can spend with a new barrel full before I might not get to tumble anymore. I’m not looking for perfection but would like a decent shape, which just isn’t happening. The whole process seems to be REALLY inefficient. Clearly I’m frustrated.
Thanks to everybody for putting up with my verbosity. I suck at brevity and never feel like I properly explain anything.
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Post by knave on Apr 30, 2020 0:41:55 GMT -5
Hello Lexington,
Try using a few less rocks, and way less water. The smaller tumblers do take longer because the rocks don’t have as far to fall.
Fill with rocks to 2/3 barrel.
Fill with water to 2/3 of the rock level.
Add 1T grit per lb of rock, and good luck!
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Wooferhound
Cave Dweller
Lortone QT66 and 3A
Member since December 2016
Posts: 1,423
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Post by Wooferhound on Apr 30, 2020 4:04:07 GMT -5
You do Not have a problem with grit sticking to the bottom. When your barrel is rolling on the tumbler which side is the bottom then, it's the round side. When you remove the tumbler all the rolling action stops and the grit goes to the bottom flat side. If it was really a problem then it would be collecting on the lid too. When you put the barrel back on the tumbler everything will mix back together in less than a minute.
You are filling the barrels with water properly for stages 2 thru polish, but stage one is the grinding stage and you should use less than half the water. The rocks should be picking up the grit and grinding into each other, you should hear this happening. Too much water and the grit won't stick. When you do your cleanouts, is the slurry thick or watery? You should see something thicker than chocolate milk, if not then reduce water.
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Post by HankRocks on Apr 30, 2020 7:08:29 GMT -5
It seems that 6 Tablespoons of grit is a bit much for a 3 pound tumbler, probably 3 would more than enough. Also curious as to why you are using ceramics in the Coarse stage. The only time I worry about adding ceramics(pea gravel in my case), is with a load of Pre-forms/Slabs or in later stages with softer material such as Arkansas Quartz or Obsidian. With the Quartz and Obsidian I usually fill the extra space created in the Coarse stage with pre-tumbled pea gravel.
Can you post a picture of the load of rocks you are attempting to tumble. That might give us another clue.
Henry
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Post by joshuamcduffie on Apr 30, 2020 9:28:57 GMT -5
Way too much grit. Barrel also too full, preventing you from getting action in the barrel.
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inbtb
Cave Dweller
Member since May 2016
Posts: 351
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Post by inbtb on Apr 30, 2020 10:34:04 GMT -5
More grit means more time tumbling. 3 Tablespoons 60/90 should be enough for a 3lb. barrel. Also I have had problems with using to many smalls. You need some but not many. Good luck with your time table, rocks will do what they do when they want. Don't be in to big of a hurry.
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oldschoolrocker
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since January 2019
Posts: 1,540
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Post by oldschoolrocker on Apr 30, 2020 10:44:38 GMT -5
Just to add...ceramics in stage 1 coarse is not beneficial. Actually slows the grit breakdown considerably depending on amt of ceramics. Only time I use them in coarse is to knock off the edges for use in later stages.
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Post by taylor on Apr 30, 2020 12:03:55 GMT -5
A tip for keeping track of what is rolling. We jot down grit and date (sometimes what stone) on a piece of masking tape and stick it on the side of the tumbler. This is particularly helpful when running multiple barrels and "forgetting" about them for weeks.
We have also found that ceramics are a hindrance in stage 1.
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Post by miket on Apr 30, 2020 12:04:57 GMT -5
I'm agreeing with the others, use 3 Tablespoons of grit. I've been using pea gravel in my coarse tumbles, apparently some of the people on here do and some don't. Maybe I'll have to experiment some with that and see what works better. I'm usually tumbling agates or jasper and it takes forever. The biggest advice I can give- and I'm sure you've heard it before- is to be patient. No, I mean really patient.
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reynedrop
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since February 2020
Posts: 204
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Post by reynedrop on Apr 30, 2020 13:07:06 GMT -5
Thanks everyone!! To address: - I added the ceramics because I read somewhere you should do that if you don’t have a good mix of sizes. I don’t have any pea gravel; no idea where to even get it now. They have not been used for a couple weeks at least as I have added the tiny pieces. - I was following recommendations from another rock tumbling site (not a forum) that suggest 2tbsp coarse per lb of rock. Also said 2/3 to 3/4 full and water to the top layer of rocks, hence why my barrel was a bit more full. I will reduce all of that at next clean out! - My main concern wasn’t that the grit is sticking to the bottom but that there is so much unused grit that it settles when I prepare to clean out and rocks get stuck. Slurry is thicker than water but not as thick as I think it should be (based on other tumbles). All of that tells me something is wrong with my ratios Again thank you all! I have no pictures of the process thus far, and my next clean out will be Monday. But I suspect you are all right- less grit, less water, fewer rocks.
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Benathema
has rocks in the head
God chased me down and made sure I knew He was real June 20, 2022. I've been on a Divine Mission.
Member since November 2019
Posts: 703
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Post by Benathema on Apr 30, 2020 13:33:34 GMT -5
Once the barrel stops rolling and is sitting upright the slurry begins to settle as well, it's not as fast as how the SiC settles out. It's not uncommon during cleanout to have the top of the pour off be liquidy and then the bottom of the pour be gloopy, and having to reach in to dislodge the last few rocks. They were tumbling, but get concreted down at the bottom a bit as the slurry settles. Then there's the occasional case where everything lines up in such a way to produce a thick softserve slurry.
Beyond that, 3lb barrels aren't the most efficient at breaking down grit and getting the fill level just right to do so is a bit more sensitive. Others above me already provided good suggestions regarding that.
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Post by rmf on Apr 30, 2020 13:34:21 GMT -5
reynedrop As state above why use ceramic in coarse? You said as cheap filler. I get that but "STOP IT". Ceramics are hardness of 5 and chalcedony is about 7. That means the grit is spending its time grinding the softer stuff making mud and when it gets around to it it grinds the harder stuff. Rocks also grind rocks. Go to your local landscaper and purchase a cheap bag of pea gravel (get quarts/agate). It is the same hardness as the agate you are tumbling. It will keep the tumbler fuller longer and not grind away as fast. ceramics are fine for polish. Not a big fan for coarse though. Also, as stated above you don't need 6 tablespoons of grit if you are tumbling for 1 week three is fine but if you are really wanting to round your stones, then tumble them for a month in coarse and 6 tablespoons is fine. I like to see the water level through the stones (when clean). I like a 80% full tumbler in coarse. I put my first finger joint on the rim and the tip of my finger should just barely touch rock. If the tumbler grinds away to 50% mud and 50% rock the tumbling action will slow. If you use too much grit it will all come out in the end and can be reused. I wash coarse over a 5 gal bucket and use a screen to hold the rock the grit falls to the bottom. wash out the mud and reuse. Hope this helps.
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reynedrop
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since February 2020
Posts: 204
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Post by reynedrop on Apr 30, 2020 19:00:01 GMT -5
Benathema - I know. I never thought that it was "stuck" in the sense that it was stuck during the tumble (I wasn't worried that was causing the grit to not be used). I was concerned about the fact that so much wasn't being used, so that when I went to clean it out, it settled so quickly and was so noticeable. Given how poorly they are shaping now, I wasn't sure if I was actually using too much grit or if there was another problem keeping the grit from being properly used. I had hoped to see some actual progress within 4 weeks. I didn't run into anything like this with my first batch of chalcedonies, though I also wasn't trying to run them down to a relatively smooth rock. It seems general consensus now is less water + less rocks + less grit, and I look forward to trying that next Monday. I would love bigger tumblers but... apartment living (and, you know, finances). rmf - Addressed earlier, I read from an instructional site to use if you only have big pieces. So I did. Idk if it was supposed to be "cheap filler," it was just the only small-sized anything I had (besides plastic pellets). Maybe the site was wrong or maybe I misread, but either way I haven't used them in coarse for at least 2 if not 3 weeks. Oddly enough my ceramics really didn't seem to wear down at all either. I now have a decent mix of sizes, should all be hardness around 7. Options for pea gravel are pretty limited right now. I'm sure we have local landscapers around but not sure if anybody is open (or if anybody would sell effectively only maybe a pound of pea gravel to me). Quite frankly during this time I'm not looking to go anywhere or do real shopping. I might be at a high risk for COVID (fevers without known cause) and I already work in health care, so I'm not risking anything. I don't live in a place where these things are readily accessible either, nor do I have anywhere to store much of it, nor do I really have any disposable income... so for now I just have to use what I already have. I've been washing all of my rocks out over a 5 gal bucket with screens as I don't have outdoor water. Typically what I do is open the barrel in a small (2 gal?) bucket so it doesn't get on my countertop, dump the barrel out over the screen, then rinse and wash the barrel in the small bucket, dumping all the water I use for that out over the rocks and into the 5 gal bucket as needed. I usually end up with a fair bit of grit in the small bucket- and that doesn't all dump out, so I know in theory I can reuse it. Have to wait for it to totally dry though otherwise it won't come out of the bucket. I haven't found a good way to reuse anything found in the big bucket; it always has a huge amount of sludgy mud at the bottom because I can't actually wash that bucket out. I'm a little curious... most people are saying the issue is that my rocks aren't getting a good toss around in the barrel, so the solution would be less rock, less water. You seem to be saying more rock? And if I'm understanding correctly, more water then too? If actual amount of grit is inconsequential, then I'm already running 70-75% full with good amount of water in it, so I guess I don't understand how adding more rock volume and more water will jostle my rocks around more.
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Post by knave on Apr 30, 2020 19:07:06 GMT -5
Another thing.... the mud or milkshake type slurry that develops, actually speeds up the rough grind by pulling the rocks together. Some members here add some clay or mud to help get it started.
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whyofquartz
spending too much on rocks
So, Africa is smaller than I expected...
Member since December 2019
Posts: 316
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Post by whyofquartz on May 2, 2020 9:15:50 GMT -5
You do Not have a problem with grit sticking to the bottom. When your barrel is rolling on the tumbler which side is the bottom then, it's the round side. When you remove the tumbler all the rolling action stops and the grit goes to the bottom flat side. If it was really a problem then it would be collecting on the lid too. When you put the barrel back on the tumbler everything will mix back together in less than a minute. You are filling the barrels with water properly for stages 2 thru polish, but stage one is the grinding stage and you should use less than half the water. The rocks should be picking up the grit and grinding into each other, you should hear this happening. Too much water and the grit won't stick. When you do your cleanouts, is the slurry thick or watery? You should see something thicker than chocolate milk, if not then reduce water. i have this same problem and i think it is honestly because my tumbler shelf is not level(thinking about it now this is dumb because some of the homebrew tumblers are slanted). I just wait about 24hr then grab the barrel and give it the ol' James bond martini. i hadn't paid attention but i thought it was the result of adding the grit before the water some times so i am careful to not do that anymore.
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gatorflash1
spending too much on rocks
Active in Delaware Mineralogical Society, Cabchon Grinding and Polishing, 2 Thumlers B's and a UV-18
Member since October 2018
Posts: 375
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Post by gatorflash1 on May 3, 2020 8:55:54 GMT -5
Here is a link to a good Modern Rock Tumbling Book that will guide you through the process. rocktumbler.com/book.shtmlGood ceramic media has a mohs of about 7+ and will not cause problems with agate, jasper, etc. I have used it forever and it holds up very well and I find that it can be reused many times. The shapes of ceramic media help to get the slurry into all areas of the rocks being tumbled. rocktumbler.com/tips/using-the-right-tumbling-media/
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Post by rmf on May 3, 2020 11:41:37 GMT -5
reynedrop All info is an opinion and can be used or discarded as desired. It is free as all opinions that are offered here. As such, laying hands on the actual components and loading them is not possible, we are remotely diagnosing and that analysis is dependent on the completeness and correctness of the information provided. So all I can offer is my experience. I have tumbled in Lortone 3A, 6# 12# drums, Gemstone vib (holds 5 gal), Gemstone 80# rotary drums and an industrial vib tumbler that holds 3 - 5gal buckets, plus a Geosonic 3# over the last 48years. I have had good results with all and have had bad results with all. Rock tumbling is a rotary tumbler is not like baking a cake. You do not have to be precise but each thing you do has a consequence (just like life). After many trials, my coarse grit recipe is always the same. Tumble a month in 46/70 grit to get the rocks(agates and jaspers only) well rounded. (Note softer rocks and glass get a different treatment.) The drum needs to 80% full with a good range in stone size mix (typically up to 1.5 inches due to my market). I like about 20 to 25% less that 1/2". The amount of water as long as the rocks are mostly covered is not important (Too little water is a problem). I will reuse fines from previous batches if I need filler. (It is important to keep rocks the same hardness if you are using a 6# or greater diameter drum. This is not so much of a problem in grinding but in polishing is where the problems show up.) In your case tumbling ceramics in coarse is your problem in my opinion. BTW quartz pea gravel comes in a 40-50# bag and will cost less than mail order 3# of ceramic pellets.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,158
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Post by jamesp on May 3, 2020 11:50:23 GMT -5
Another thing.... the mud or milkshake type slurry that develops, actually speeds up the rough grind by pulling the rocks together. Some members here add some clay or mud to help get it started. Well said Evan. added cohesive force = higher grinding force yo ! Analogy: Mixing cement - Wet gravel is easy to mix. Add the Portland and you best eat your Wheaties because things are getting ready to stick together. The force on the hoe increases exponentially. Same game in a rotary. Will have to add abrasive more often because rocks are grinding with more attractive force.
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