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Post by glennz01 on Feb 7, 2024 17:37:54 GMT -5
Experimenting myself. One thing I’ve noticed is that going from a low grit to a high grit, then back through. The high grit masks the deeper scratches. Essentially smooths or buffs them out, but never really gets rid of them. Then as you go back through the stages, to the untrained eye, they aren’t noticeable. If you throw the cab under a loop, you can still see the scratches, they are just smoothed out. That's why I let them dry fully between stages, and I spect under a bright light and sharpie imperfections on each stage starting wheel 2, under water it's hard to know if you get all the scratches out even 80 to 1000 grit, you know you get most out though. I know my 1000 grit wheel I noticed I bought in 2022 and ran at least 400-500 cabs through it by now, it's not as sharp as new but still has life left though takes slightly longer than new but not by much.
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Post by glennz01 on Feb 7, 2024 2:15:14 GMT -5
Once I post videos of going 80 to 1,000 grit hard to hard. I suspect many people that care about time (or at least that see $70 for the wheel as cheap) will be ordering 1000 grit. I'm I'm hoping BA will make a 1000 grit, maybe if there's enough demand they will since I like their quality as I've only ever found 1k grit on Amazon usually 1 inch width instead of 1.5 inch I tried your 1000 grit method long ago. It worked well but diamond wheels were very expensive then and demand for my cabs was low so I developed other more economical techniques. I may try it again when the need arises. You can find 800 and 1200 x 1.5 inch plated wheels at Treasure Hong Kong <https://www.thk.hk> for $49 plus shipping. I think the total is around $65. I've used their wheels for years and like them a lot. Maybe those gits will work for you. 800 grit would still be slightly too course, not sure if the 1200 would be just as efficient though might be similar. I have noticed many Lapidary things cisting less in recent years other than saw blades which went up lol
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Post by glennz01 on Feb 7, 2024 0:18:31 GMT -5
That's interesting, the guy who sold me my first big saw and a combo cab machine gave me a "lesson" on a 15 minute cab (from dopped preform) and he used a 80/220hard/220soft/600/1200/3000/cerium setup on a Titan. DP used to make the 220 soft wheels for Rons Rocks on ebay, I plan to have a couple old 280 soft wheels recoated in 220 from a shop in Idaho to try. That's somewhat similar to my set-up on the Genie. I used to buy 220 soft wheels directly from Ron when I lived close to him. Now I go 80 sintered, 150, & 240 hard, then 220, 600 and higher soft, to polish, depending on what I'm cutting. I don't cut 15 minute cabs but this method is lots faster than spending lots of time removing scratches on the big jump from 220 hard to 280 soft. Once I post videos of going 80 to 1,000 grit hard to hard. I suspect many people that care about time (or at least that see $70 for the wheel as cheap) will be ordering 1000 grit. I'm I'm hoping BA will make a 1000 grit, maybe if there's enough demand they will since I like their quality as I've only ever found 1k grit on Amazon usually 1 inch width instead of 1.5 inch
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Post by glennz01 on Feb 7, 2024 0:16:00 GMT -5
A 60-grit sintered diamond 8" wheel on a CB8 cuts out a rough pretty fast over and over. Yeah, I've got 6 inch currently, I know 8 inch shpuld help be faster if the rpm is same
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Post by glennz01 on Feb 6, 2024 14:43:56 GMT -5
I'd think your not using much pressure? Sometimes I think I use too much pressure, in order to shape the preform and then the dome. But I try to not use much pressure at all on the grinding wheels, but I'm new to cabbing and the 80 to 220 to 280 wheels are my struggle. Are you saying I should use more, or less pressure? On my hard wheels, my unit (6 inch wheels) starts close to me and I find myself having to pull it back to me occasionally with agate materials. Yeah it might be slightly more wear but work load also goes up exponentially.
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Post by glennz01 on Feb 6, 2024 14:40:26 GMT -5
That's interesting, the guy who sold me my first big saw and a combo cab machine gave me a "lesson" on a 15 minute cab (from dopped preform) and he used a 80/220hard/220soft/600/1200/3000/cerium setup on a Titan. DP used to make the 220 soft wheels for Rons Rocks on ebay, I plan to have a couple old 280 soft wheels recoated in 220 from a shop in Idaho to try. My first "production" setup, a 2 wheel 8" arbor with 60/600 hard and another with 2 expandos and belts was slow in comparison with a standard Genie I use now, but I also start with the 80 waffle wheel from J Bros for the mass material removal, then again to a 80 grit on the Genie if needed, and that speeds up the process some. Some materials can be arould 20 minutes a cab, others up to twice that, then there's intarsia and carving. Yeah soft wheels are fine generally, I've found though that it's just the transition from hard to soft wheel that's always the most time consuming, and that's what I eliminate. But a 30x22 oval super hard agate cab for instance, currently is roughly 2 min on each wheel. I'm hoping to make that time even less!
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Post by glennz01 on Feb 6, 2024 14:36:57 GMT -5
I hope to have some new info to contribute on this thread in about 6 months but it is too cool in my basement to time my cabbing. It will have to wait for warmer weather. It should be noted in the above that @hefty 's contribution is true on cabs as well as facet stones however it is more obvious on faceted stones than on cabs. I also grind with a heavy hand and for hogging material I like a 30 grit sintered Baltic Abrasive(BA) wheel. This leaves scratches about equal to a Diamond Pacific(DP) 60 grit plated hex wheel. The BA 30 Grit cuts about 11% faster than the DP 60 grit hex wheel. (from my testing the DP wheel was broken in, not new. In my experience the breaking process for the DP 60 grit and 80 grit plated wheels is about 100 - 150, 40x30 size agate cabochons. The 30 Grit sintered wheel from BA I ran about 250 cabs through the wheel to "break it in" before I started timing my grinding. I have now roughed out over 500 stones on the wheel and have found the break in time to be zero. One oddity the right half of the wheel has less chipping that the Left half. Chipping on the 30 grit is about equal to chipping from a new plated 60 grit wheel. I hog material from the top and grind only material where chipping wont matter. I then finish the rough out on a worn 80 grit hex plated wheel from DP. I purchased a 60 grit sintered wheel from BA as well and though it works well it is too slow for roughout work. I have used it with great success to take the dopped rough ground cabs and remove scratches from the 80 grit. the 60 Grit gets only a light touch unless i need to reduce the height of the cab more. I have had no chipping problems from the 60 grit sintered wheel. Yeah I though about a 30 grit but I think I'd need a different bench setup for that reason as I'll work agate and soft stuff (I like soft stuff lol) How does the 60 grit compare to the 80 grit in terms of scratch depth and time differences? It might still be ok to go from 60 to 1000 since the 1000 can take away a surprising amount of material.
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Post by glennz01 on Feb 6, 2024 3:20:49 GMT -5
wow, I'm intrigued. I can't even go from 80 to 220 and remove scratches, but straight to 1000 from 80? How does that work? I'd think your not using much pressure?
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Post by glennz01 on Feb 6, 2024 3:20:02 GMT -5
glennz01, I set up a facebook page for selling cabs. I need to take photos and list. I had a technique for getting shop visits which is to list a lot of more unusual material which results in better placement in web and Etsy searches. That doesn't work for FB. I do FB searches for material. It allows me find listings that are not easy to find. FB pages are not structured well for finding stuff. My traffic will be driven the FB search. Basically have to share cool stuff, people join to see more, sales eventually come. I started in 2013 gained real traction in 2018/9 when I started making a lot more.
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Post by glennz01 on Feb 5, 2024 1:47:19 GMT -5
I look for expensive material at a good price. That is part of the hobby for me. I don't compete with India or China. I also don't have sales or coupons. I'm not looking to undercut prices for those who are trying to make wages selling. I tried selling on one of the facebook pages and sold one cab. There is a two tier system at Cabs and slabs. Selling as a guest; days and items are restricted. They also did an image scan before approving posts to check that the cab wasn't being offered elsewhere. I had posts rejected when they were ok. I tend to use the same shapes and material. If the mod looked closely he could see the difference. Well when I mean by China, they sell cabs wholesale for $2 ea that stores retail for $10 ea lol. Quality is lacking in them though. As for Facebook, need to make your own group instead of posting things for sake in other groups, but do post some cool things from your group to others and if people like your stuff they will follow. Ie if you look at mine Alaskan Lapudary, you'll see most of the cabs I've made on my last batch with ones I finish up this week after I clear another 12 inches of fresh snow from people's driveways lol. I don't so much compete, I just do things by time and material, cabs used to take me 3/4 hr to make so I set that size to $25 and improved a in time. Mostly local materials, some spendy or rare materials I put to comp material cost for more like dino bone. Plus I do 2-3 rock shows a year which helps
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Post by glennz01 on Feb 4, 2024 12:56:06 GMT -5
I make a lot more cabs than I sell and if I sold more, I would be motivated to make more. My average cab sells for around $35 and I sell around 10. From an ego standpoint I would like to be selling more. My goal was to make the hobby self funding, paying for material, equipment and supplies. I have been able to do that. I like making cabs. I make them and list them and let the rest take care of itself. Yeah, depending on your materials, price may be a little more than most people want to pay, China is competition lol. If you make a facebook group for yourself you'll sell more eventually. I don't yet have customers for most of my cabs, but some day most should sell. Partly why I try to keep time to a minimum
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Post by glennz01 on Feb 4, 2024 1:59:14 GMT -5
I make income that usually goes back into equipment lol, or gas to get more rocks. Maybe some day I'll do it where it can pay bills (soon would be nice) Do you like to do that? I can't imagine getting so invested in the hobby that I make 60 cabs per weekend. IMO if it's for profit, a few designer cabs might be worth more than 50 ovals, if you follow a standard like that. But I honestly don't know because I'm nowhere near that deep. IDK even 60 people that I would talk to in a year, let alone make a cab for. I shouldn't pour cold water on your ambitions though, we all have different goals that are equally valid. Tumble-finishing might be ideal? A vibratory doesn't reduce much. Here's a quote from a faceter that was eye-opening to me. "Studies of optical finishing for technical optics have shown that, in general, one must remove material to a embedded in media so their effective cutting depth is less than 9mm. You'd have to work the surface over at least 100 times with 9 micron to abrade .885mm. I'm too lazy to do more math but it might be faster to use intermediate grit wheels? Or tumble. Edit: I'm all theory and no experience so please forgive If I made incorrect assumptions. I see you do go back to 280 after 1000 grit. I know the difference between hard n soft wheel grits isn't exactly obvious but it sounds like you know what you're doing. Can you explain more how you started to go in that order and why it's amazing compared to going straight to 280 resin or running through 100-220-400-600 hard? 60 cabs takes me roughly a week depending on my heavy equipment or snor removal jobs (self employed). If I have no work maybe slightly less time. On 60 cabs I spend roughly 2 hrs per wheel, 1 hr in between stages with a sharpie examining scratches after everything dries. Usually I'll complete 1 wheel and at least 1 inspection in a day, sometimes 2 wheels in a day if I feel like it. Most of my shapes are free form though ovals are also easy. Few hearts at times. All different materials usually. On my Facebook group Alaskan Lapidary the cover photo you can see my current batch. Largest reason why the "extreme" grit change as conventional 220 grit to 280 grit, both new wheels, I might spend 10 to 30 min getting out the scratches fully on things like clear Montana agate where it needs to be perfect. Before 1000 grit I tried 600 grit but it was still taking way too long. 1000 grit hard you can still remove a surprising amount of material, and takes about 2 min for a good 25x30 sized agate cab grinding on all sides (more grinding on the flat sides usually) Softer materials take hardly any time at all like malachite. It's also usually easy to see when you removed at least most scratches. Someone else asked to see the difference between 80 grit and 1000 grit so I may just post a video when I start a new batch. Likiley a smaller batch. 60 cabs is my "magic number as each cab is usually $25, some more and some if very small at $20. I try to make at least $1,500 a month income from all work every month to live, not the greatest income but I know how to make it work. So with cabs some might sell now, some may be years later, but I never kniw when I will have too much other work that I'm too busy to play with rocks like in summer since I'm finding or working a lot. My Facebook group has roughly 1,100 people on it, mist just like to see all the pretty rocks I make but some people see things they can't resist, like a local rockhound that couldn't resist some local calcite that is insanely uv reactive. Plus this month alone I've had a lot of lapidary equipment replacements, my tumbler motor (1/3hp) and 14 inch rock saw motor among with other things decided to burn up or break. Not fun but they get a lot of use. Good motors being roughly $300 ea
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Post by glennz01 on Feb 4, 2024 1:38:38 GMT -5
After the second 80 grit wheel, all work is sanding through polishing. Shaping is complete. Two things limit my speed; taking frequent breaks to get off my feet and reviewing progress and having to go back because of discovering scratches. I would hope that technique would hit all of the area but it doesn't for me. The frequency of having to go back is dependent on the hardness of the material. Morgan Hill is very forgiving. Montana, Blue Mountain and gem Owyhee are not. As in speed I'm meaning physical grinding speed per wheel. I let everything dry and use sharpie between every step though I'd like to find a good non ink marking alternative as well so things don't penitrate as I sometimes forget which stones I stabalize with superglue when I use acetone to remove any sharpie after final polish if it's porous stone. Next reply will have more on the thought of time with my process
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Post by glennz01 on Feb 3, 2024 2:25:43 GMT -5
At this point, it's apparent that 1000 grit 2nd wheel is not a typo. Best thing I've ever discovered. I used to hate 220 hard to 280 soft transition as it took forever it seemed, now rough grinding is my most time consuming I think. 800, 1600 and 3000 all take about 2 min per cab average
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Post by glennz01 on Feb 3, 2024 2:23:05 GMT -5
60 cabs in 15- 20 hours ?? That’s not a hobby anymore…that’s an occupation !! I make income that usually goes back into equipment lol, or gas to get more rocks. Maybe some day I'll do it where it can pay bills (soon would be nice)
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Post by glennz01 on Feb 2, 2024 20:51:57 GMT -5
I like to cut fast and with a heavy hand. The scratches are the same width as a regular 80, but a little deeper. Ok, that how I grind as well as I'm usually taking off a bit of material if I'm working up end cuts and stuff. What the rough time difference on say an agate between the 2?
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Post by glennz01 on Feb 2, 2024 19:47:42 GMT -5
The 80 grit BA textured wheel eats rock, doesn't chip but does leave deep scratches. My second wheel is a worn 80 grit DP wheel for refining the shape and removing scratches. How big of scratches compared to a reletivily new 80 grit standard wheel?
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Post by glennz01 on Feb 2, 2024 19:45:25 GMT -5
I start with a sintered 60 grit wheel. I exchanged the 280 soft for a 220 soft. Works for me and I do like to cab fast. Sometimes, I get ahead of myself. LOL! How big are the scratches compared to 80 grit? If not much more I'd think the 1,000 grit would be fine transition still
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Post by glennz01 on Feb 2, 2024 19:44:10 GMT -5
80 to 1000? Lemme see these cabs I'll probably start a new batch of some amount next week, finishing up a batch of 60 in a few days as I do a stage a day usually, sometimes 2 since I wait for them to dry and check in between
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Post by glennz01 on Feb 2, 2024 19:04:36 GMT -5
So I can currently make a batch of 60 cabs in between 15 and 20 hours.
1st wheel is 80 grit, but it seems like there could be another grit that may be more efficient at rough grinding?
2nd wheel is 1000 grit which in most cases using this grit takes me 2 min and transitions amazingly to the 280 grit soft wheel
Currently my only mods from standard are all my resin wheels are premium wheels from Baltic abrasives.
So what has everyone found that may be a faster wheel than just the standard 80 grit and maintain quality for all rock types? Also possibly a different 1st soft wheel?
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