Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2022 13:37:43 GMT -5
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Brian
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since July 2020
Posts: 1,512
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Post by Brian on Nov 10, 2022 13:50:43 GMT -5
One very important thing to remember is the loose grit in your tumbler is breaking down over time. The 60 grit that you start with may be the equivalent of 120 grit within two days. Therefore, you are effectively tumbling with finer and finer grit as the process continues.
If the grit did not break down, then you would probably need to follow the woodworking rules. Lucky for us that the rocks do a lot of the work.
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Post by aDave on Nov 10, 2022 14:12:23 GMT -5
I think what you'll find is there are a few ways to get to a final result, and most eventually end up with recipes and timeframes that suit them best. While I understand the (potential) application of the 50% rule in woodworking, it doesn't seem to apply in the tumbling world, at least in my experience. Mainly, I think that's so because as grit breaks down and gets smaller, it still continues to work until it's gone. As such, the scratches continue to get smoother and smaller through a stage. That's opposed to sandpaper where the grit stays (basically) one size, and you need to use subsequent finer papers to smooth out scratches from the previous paper. I cut my teeth on rotary tumbling and used it through all stages for quite some time until I got a Loto for all stages after coarse. In my "all rotary" runs my timeframes and grit sizes were these: Stage 1 (Coarse) 46/70 SiC - Perpetual run until rocks are shaped the way I want them. Full clean outs and new grit weekly. Considering the weight of your material, you might want to check at five days to see if you still have grit remaining. Rocks, when ready, are pulled and replaced with new material to keep the volume up. Stage 2 (Medium) 120/220 SiC - 7 to 10 days. No grit added or changed out. Stage 3 (Fine) 500 AO - 14 days. No grit added or changed out. Stage 4 (Polish) AO polish from the Rock Shed - 3 weeks. After coarse where no cushioning was used, I used plastic pellets, dedicated to each stage, through the remaining stages. You can choose to use ceramics, and you can move them along with your rocks if you like. As long as they are cleaned as well as your rocks, grit will not embed in them like it does in plastic. As mentioned, this is what worked for me, and your mileage may vary. Here's a quick pic of one of my all rotary batches, just so you can see how things worked out for me: IMG_1483
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hplcman
spending too much on rocks
Member since August 2022
Posts: 460
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Post by hplcman on Nov 10, 2022 16:01:10 GMT -5
I think what you'll find is there are a few ways to get to a final result, and most eventually end up with recipes and timeframes that suit them best. While I understand the (potential) application of the 50% rule in woodworking, it doesn't seem to apply in the tumbling world, at least in my experience. Mainly, I think that's so because as grit breaks down and gets smaller, it still continues to work until it's gone. As such, the scratches continue to get smoother and small through a stage. That's opposed to sandpaper where the grit stays (basically) one size, and you need to use subsequent finer papers to smooth out scratches from the previous paper. I cut my teeth on rotary tumbling and used it through all stages for quite some time until I got a Loto for all stages after coarse. In my "all rotary" runs my timeframes and grit sizes were these: Stage 1 (Coarse) 46/70 SiC - Perpetual run until rocks are shaped the way I want them. Full clean outs and new grit weekly. Considering the weight of your material, you might want to check at five days to see if you still have grit remaining. Rocks, when ready, are pulled and replaced with new material to keep the volume up. Stage 2 (Medium) 120/220 SiC - 7 to 10 days. No grit added or changed out. Stage 3 (Fine) 500 AO - 14 days. No grit added or changed out. Stage 4 (Polish) AO polish from the Rock Shed - 3 weeks. After coarse where no cushioning was used, I used plastic pellets, dedicated to each stage, through the remaining stages. You can choose to use ceramics, and you can move them along with your rocks if you like. As long as they are cleaned as well as your rocks, grit will not embed in them like it does in plastic. As mentioned, this is what worked for me, and your mileage may vary. Here's a quick pick of one of my all rotary batches, just so you can see how things worked out for me: IMG_1483Wow! Those are amazing! I usually rotary tumble with AO polish for 1 week, but will give my current batch extra time to see how they turn out!
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Post by aDave on Nov 10, 2022 17:22:36 GMT -5
Wow! Those are amazing! I usually rotary tumble with AO polish for 1 week, but will give my current batch extra time to see how they turn out! Thank you. If you have the time and patience, I found that three weeks was definitely better than one, and somewhat better than two. But, that was me. Once it was started, I simply let it run. There's no reason to recharge polish. I had good results from sticking with hard material, as I was never really interested in any softer stuff.
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Post by aDave on Nov 10, 2022 23:30:28 GMT -5
If it continuously breaks down at the perfect pace, why don't people just use 500 al oxide all the way through for 1 long stage instead of following up with finer AO polish. Some people do let this happen, but only in a vibe tumbler. Running rocks in a 500 stage for multiple days produces a very nice polish, but it's not quite the same as using a polish. When you translate that to a rotary tumbler, I'd expect you would need to run the stage for months. But, I'm just guessing...I always used a polish, so I have nothing to compare that to.
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vance71975
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since September 2022
Posts: 760
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Post by vance71975 on Nov 11, 2022 1:46:54 GMT -5
Hey I'm new to the hobby and still in my first stage but starting to accrue some flawless stones. I'm using 46/70 in rotary. I'm devising a plan with the grits I have available to me and my understanding of tumbler theory is basically to start coarse and work your way to fine. Each stage takes out the scratches of the previous stage, leaves finer scratches, yada yada. But my guru Jugglerguy is polishing everything and even winning competitions with basically 4 grits - coarse, 220 silicon carbide, 500 aluminum oxide, ~3 micron aluminum oxide polish. I've heard of rules, at least for sanding wood, that you shouldn't jump up more than 50% of your current grit. Like, the highest grit that you would ideally use following 120 would be 180 (120+60). I've browsed a half dozen grit vendors and realized there's way more grits for sale than just the 4 that Rob uses. Still not enough to follow the 50% rule, but does it even make a difference? Would the ideal tumble go through perhaps a dozen grits? I have accumulated: Silicon Carbide46/70 80 150/220 220 500 Aluminum Oxide Pre-Polish500 800 1000 Polish2-3 micron Aluminum Oxide 0.8 micron Tin Oxide 0.5 micron Raybrite A 0.3 micron Alumina A And there's cerium oxide too but I think I have enough stuff for now. Question is, is that many stages overkill? Is it just about picking one from each category? A coarse carbide, a fine carbide, a pre-polish, and a polish? I know aluminum oxide breaks down into finer particles, but wouldn't it theoretically still be better to do 500 - 800 - 1000 to thoroughly eliminate the previous scratches? Bonus question: When tumbling with ceramics, does it make a difference to use separate ceramics for each stage? Or do people just run the same media through any and every stage? From what I've seen; Rob uses separate drums, spoons, even colanders - but the same media? Wouldn't the media potentially transfer grit? I got an MT-4 for the later stages, waited ages for a delay in production but it finally came. I also need to decide when to switch them to vibratory. With both, is the only point of using the rotary to get that initial shaping and smoothing done? I know Rob switches to his Lot-O for his second stage (220). I would potentially be doing 46/70, 80, 150/220 before 220 though... so do them in the rotary or switch to vibratory at 80 in my situation? Thanks for the advice! FWIW I think how many stages you do really goes by how many tumblers you have, how patient you are, and what you are aiming for in the end rock. For example, A lot of what I tumble is for my girl to do wire wrapping on, and she wants some natural features of the stone left plus a shine. So I dont always tumble for perfectly round and perfectly smooth. I basically do the following, I have changed up what I do because I am not super patient(ADHD) so this is my system now. A mix of 36 Grit SiC and 46/70 Sic mixed in a 1 to 5 ratio for stage 1 Repeat as needed till as smooth as I want them. 7 day cycles, But the one thing I do differently than most is I drain the rocks, check them, and Pour the used slurry back in and add fresh grit I dont drain, rinse, new grit and new water. 220 SiC for stage 2 running for 5 to 7 days. 500 ao and 1000ao Mixed 50/50 ratio for 5 to 7 days Rock Shed AO Polish until shiny Seems to be working ok for me so far. But Honestly, You could cycle as many stages as you have the patience and money to afford to do if you want. But I will say this, you will hit a point of diminishing returns when you get to the various polishes. A rock can only get so shiny before it gets to the point you would need a microscope to tell the difference. Up until polish, its really up to you and how much time and money you want to invest.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,558
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Post by jamesp on Nov 11, 2022 14:14:46 GMT -5
After tinkering with a bunch of different abrasives I settled on a range of SiC from very large to SiC 60. For finishing be it in rotary or vibe I only own AO 220 SiC 500 AO 500 and AO 14,000 polish.
All the other sizes were simply used up where their sizes matched the needs.
Rotary menu - SiC(sized for the particular rock softness), AO 220, AO 500, AO 14,000 Vibe menu - SiC 500, AO 500, AO 14,000(step 1 done in rotary always)
These were the simplest and fewest steps I could come up with to get well shaped and polished stones. But there are dozens of other menus that will get the job done.
The AO 500 and AO 14,000 polish was purchased from the Rock Shed. Good AO 500 and AO 14,000 is important for high polishes whatever the source.
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