moopiemotomom
having dreams about rocks
Member since November 2022
Posts: 50
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Post by moopiemotomom on Jun 21, 2023 12:54:31 GMT -5
I've been having a difficult and discouraging time with my MT4 mini-sonic vibratory tumbler, it's a much more challenging learning curve than my rotary tumblers have been. The action seems good, the rocks seem to be tumbling over each other at a good rate, but they aren't taking a polish in the expected amount of time and often wedge themselves in the barrel and jam up. I have tried filling with less and more rock, tried more media/less media, more/less water, and I haven't noticed any significant difference in the outcome, so I'm hoping for suggestions.
I've tumbled with the following process using ceramic media:
3-4 days in 2/3 tbsp of 220 silicon carbide
2-5 days in 1/2 tbsp 500 aluminum oxide & borax
added 2 days of 1/2 tbsp 1000 aluminum oxide & borax
2-3 days of 1/2 tbsp alumium oxide polish
I also burnish and clean all pits and cracks with a brush and spray bottle so they're VERY clean when I move them on.
I've been polishing with a harbor freight rotary tumbler and have had much better results with the same material.
I'm at a loss considering my expectation, based on numerous youtube channels, was that it would take about a week to week and a half to run stages 2 through polish, and I've run them for 2 weeks of all stages and still haven't had good polish results, even when adding extra time to account for jamming and for shaping in the earlier stages. Stones are turning out hazy and splotchy in the centers, and polished better on edges/corners.
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moopiemotomom
having dreams about rocks
Member since November 2022
Posts: 50
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Post by moopiemotomom on Jun 21, 2023 13:01:44 GMT -5
This is what it looked like when it jammed overnight or while I was at work:  This is typically how wet I've had it    Here are some pictures of the jams and of the unsatisfying results. Do the other vibratory tumblers like Lot-O, raytech, and thumler's just give better quality results in a shorter time, or am I maybe doing something wrong? |
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Post by chris1956 on Jun 21, 2023 13:32:29 GMT -5
Oh my gosh. It seems like there are problems with all tumblers. Something is up with my QT12 rotary today. Anyway, I have had a mini-sonic for about 5 months now. For what it is worth. I do have an issue with material jamming up occasionally. It seems like flatter rocks jam more often even though they may be smaller than other rocks that don't jam. They just get wedged in there somehow. I usually take one out and try it again and see if it works. Your first pic looks like a slab? I haven't tried any of those. Second pic looks like the rock might have some smaller pits? Is that quartz or quartzite? I find a lot of the quartzite around here (northwest Missouri) that simply won't polish well because of the naturally occurring pits. And the pits will collect polish.
So far I have stuck with the amounts of grit and polish suggested in the manual (a lot more than what you have been using) plus added small amount of borax to pre-polish and polish stages. So far I can't complain about the results.
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Post by Starguy on Jun 21, 2023 14:37:49 GMT -5
moopiemotomomI tumble rotary only so take this with a grain of salt. My gut feel is you need more smalls to fill in the voids I see in the tumbling mass.
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moopiemotomom
having dreams about rocks
Member since November 2022
Posts: 50
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Post by moopiemotomom on Jun 21, 2023 15:18:10 GMT -5
 The pic above is the same sort of material from my first batch of rotary polishing and that is pretty characteristic of all the ones I've polished like it before. The next pic is a rotary polished quartzite and you can see the pits don't polish, but everywhere else has a much clearer mirror polish.  I guess it's on me for not following the directions in the manual, but I also know with the rotary tumbler instructions (especially the ones for the nat geo), the time and grit amount they give is far from ideal, so I went with what I've seen others do with other vibratory tumblers and it's just not turning out good results with those methods and I'm kind of surprised there's that big of a difference. This latest batch I've run closer to the manual instructions, but it didn't seem to improve the outcome. I'll keep tweaking things and see what I can come up with, but let me know if you have any ideas otherwise, or if you can post what your successful process has been. Thanks! |
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moopiemotomom
having dreams about rocks
Member since November 2022
Posts: 50
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Post by moopiemotomom on Jun 21, 2023 15:19:59 GMT -5
moopiemotomom I tumble rotary only so take this with a grain of salt. My gut feel is you need more smalls to fill in the voids I see in the tumbling mass. Good suggestion, I've got a good arrangement of sizes in there similar to how I've done rotary polishing, plus I also have small and large ceramic media, so I'm not sure that's what it is. Thanks for the suggestion though. |
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Post by chris1956 on Jun 21, 2023 15:39:48 GMT -5
Hard to tell from the straight down pic but are you filling to amount recommended in the manual? I had noticed when I first started that overfilling caused issues with jamming.
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moopiemotomom
having dreams about rocks
Member since November 2022
Posts: 50
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Post by moopiemotomom on Jun 21, 2023 15:51:47 GMT -5
Hard to tell from the straight down pic but are you filling to amount recommended in the manual? I had noticed when I first started that overfilling caused issues with jamming. Mostly I've found the best action when it's filled more, up to almost the bottom of the knobby bit. I've tried it with different amounts, it's jammed less with more rocks and jammed more with more rocks depending on the batch more than on the amount filled. I've added it to be 1" from the top and had it as low as 2" from the top. It didn't seem to make a difference in the quality of the results...maybe a higher media to rocks ratio would help? But then I read some people don't even use any media at all, so I'm not sure, that's why I'm looking for very specific formulas people have been using successfully. Unfortunately it doesn't seem like there are many posts about troubleshooting the results for the MT4. |
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hoolligan1938
spending too much on rocks
Member since January 2022
Posts: 253
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Post by hoolligan1938 on Jun 21, 2023 17:37:02 GMT -5
I use a Lot-O, but your first picture from above looks awfully dry to me. I don't have a minisonic but have you tried adding some water? Not being familiar with the Minisonic I'm just assuming that you use water just like in a Lot-O.
Jim
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Post by chris1956 on Jun 21, 2023 18:09:02 GMT -5
I use a Lot-O, but your first picture from above looks awfully dry to me. I don't have a minisonic but have you tried adding some water? Not being familiar with the Minisonic I'm just assuming that you use water just like in a Lot-O. Jim Glad you noticed that. Too many things going on today. I think I mentioned this to someone just recently in the forum. The mini manual says if you see water you have too much. I typically add water (when moving) just to the point where I can see it on side the rocks are going down. Much more water than what I use in the Lot-O. |
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lapidarycentral
starting to spend too much on rocks
(Brian Rhode) LapidaryCentral.com - Fueling your Lapidary Addiction.
Member since August 2021
Posts: 218
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Post by lapidarycentral on Jun 21, 2023 18:22:41 GMT -5
I had a heck of a time with my mt4s as well. Had two, an older and newer one; both always came out glazed unless the material was very hard, while the Lot-o and UV18 always came out perfect.
Finally decided it just wasn't for me and sold them. Plus, I hated the shape of the barrel. Perfect shape for stones to get jammed up just perfectly.
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dillonf
fully equipped rock polisher
Hounding and tumbling
Member since February 2022
Posts: 1,622
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Post by dillonf on Jun 21, 2023 18:48:47 GMT -5
Here are some pictures of the jams and of the unsatisfying results. Do the other vibratory tumblers like Lot-O, raytech, and thumler's just give better quality results in a shorter time, or am I maybe doing something wrong? I use a Lot-O as well, but if that was my barrel I'd say it is too full and to dry. |
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moopiemotomom
having dreams about rocks
Member since November 2022
Posts: 50
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Post by moopiemotomom on Jun 21, 2023 23:48:26 GMT -5
Fair point about it being dry, it's only dry because it James during the night and the top dried out. When running, it's about the consistency of cream. It's probably too full, I'll try fewer next time and see if that helps.
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moopiemotomom
having dreams about rocks
Member since November 2022
Posts: 50
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Post by moopiemotomom on Jun 21, 2023 23:50:18 GMT -5
I had a heck of a time with my mt4s as well. Had two, an older and newer one; both always came out glazed unless the material was very hard, while the Lot-o and UV18 always came out perfect. Finally decided it just wasn't for me and sold them. Plus, I hated the shape of the barrel. Perfect shape for stones to get jammed up just perfectly. This is what I'm afraid of...I hope I can find a way around it, otherwise I might have to do the same |
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lapidarycentral
starting to spend too much on rocks
(Brian Rhode) LapidaryCentral.com - Fueling your Lapidary Addiction.
Member since August 2021
Posts: 218
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Post by lapidarycentral on Jun 22, 2023 13:41:37 GMT -5
I had a heck of a time with my mt4s as well. Had two, an older and newer one; both always came out glazed unless the material was very hard, while the Lot-o and UV18 always came out perfect. Finally decided it just wasn't for me and sold them. Plus, I hated the shape of the barrel. Perfect shape for stones to get jammed up just perfectly. This is what I'm afraid of...I hope I can find a way around it, otherwise I might have to do the same I've seen people get great results with them, so there is a way. I just never found it and lost my patience with them. |
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ashley
Cave Dweller 
Member since February 2023
Posts: 941 
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Post by ashley on Jun 22, 2023 13:51:43 GMT -5
I use one at work (as well as a double lot-o, UV 10, 18, and 45) I get great results. From your pictures you have rocks that are way to big. It really can’t handle larger rocks. I only do rocks about the size of a quarter. I will give you my grit recipe in a bit too.
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Post by catmandewe on Jun 22, 2023 14:29:22 GMT -5
you can increase the action of the MT4 by cutting a piece of innertube or something similar and laying it underneath your barrel before you clamp it down, same with some of the smaller viking barrles.
Tony
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rockbrain
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2022
Posts: 3,198
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Post by rockbrain on Jun 22, 2023 15:03:37 GMT -5
I'll second what Ashley said about the rock size. I get jams when I go with larger rocks, or long flat ones. I'll run fairly large rocks anyway. It's amazing how hard they can jam together in place but it usually breaks free if I slap the side of the barrel fairly hard!
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Post by chris1956 on Jun 22, 2023 16:05:07 GMT -5
I'll second what Ashley said about the rock size. I get jams when I go with larger rocks, or long flat ones. I'll run fairly large rocks anyway. It's amazing how hard they can jam together in place but it usually breaks free if I slap the side of the barrel fairly hard! I agree about the rock size although I go bigger than a quarter that Ashley mentioned. My rule is if the same rock jams twice, it gets removed to either be placed in the next batch, the Lot-O or a rotary. |
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ashley
Cave Dweller
Member since February 2023
Posts: 941
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Post by ashley on Jun 22, 2023 17:53:45 GMT -5
This is what I have been using (go with grit from the rock shed if you can.) sorry if it is hard to read, I have tweaked it over time. They always call for way more grit then needed. Its 2 tsp 120/220, 1 tsp 500 and 1 tsp polish. Use borax in the 500 and polish cycle.  |
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