RockyBeach
starting to spend too much on rocks
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Member since July 2023
Posts: 240
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Post by RockyBeach on Jul 12, 2023 5:50:04 GMT -5
Just started the first batch in the RayTech V10. Questions: How much water is too much water ? The cover is clear and I can see water splashing and covering the lid. Does this indicate water overload? There is a slurry this morning but it does not look like the videos of how things look in other vibes. The wingnut for the lid seems to be tight BUT the floor is surrounded by little droplets of water. I am reluctant to crank it really tight because of the plastic lid which looks vulnerable. Is this escaping water normal? The directions that came with the unit are confusing .... in one place they said to use 2 TB of grit per load and in another they said use 6 oz. I used the 2TB ... was that enough or is that why the slurry seems thin ? So much to learn ...
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Post by Peruano on Jul 12, 2023 6:38:29 GMT -5
In my vibe 5, if water splashes out of the machine when the top is off, its too much water. Do you have two fasteners (rubber threaded grommets)? One goes on top of the bowl to secure it on the machine, and the other goes on top of the clear top. When you have the one on top of the bowl, you can run the machine without a top, especially while you are adjusting soap, water, and grit proportions. I always run a load with a good dab of dawn liquid with the machine running a minute or so before adding the grit or adjusting the water. The soap helps to allow the grit to cling to the stones, and become evenly dispersed and hence disperse water as well. I use the rule that if I can see water in the bottom of the bowl or its obviously thrown out of the bowl, I probably have too much water. I add grit slowly because dumping it in in one sudden action can cause it to lump to the bottom and take longer to get in motion. Does this help your thinking of what is going on in your shop? If not, tell us more!
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RockyBeach
starting to spend too much on rocks
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Member since July 2023
Posts: 240
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Post by RockyBeach on Jul 12, 2023 8:52:08 GMT -5
PeruanoThanks for the input. Peruano. I have one rubberized washer that I put on the top of the barrel and a large and a small plain ones that I put on the lid with a wing nut. I put the large on first and then the small one. It is not so much "splashing" as flying droplets. I cannot see a water level. I put the rocks and ceramics in wet and then added water with a spray bottle. I sprinkled the grit in all over like from a salt shaker while iy was tumbling and then added a bit more water. I think I am mostly nervous about it being done wrong because this is a new technique for me and it has been less than 24 hours.
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Post by jasoninsd on Jul 12, 2023 10:12:28 GMT -5
I'm more of a cabber than tumbler...but I do tumble occasionally...so take what I say with a grain of grit! ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) When I think I've got too much water in the vibe, I'll add a little bit of Borax to the tumble. It usually swallows up the excess water. At times, I've also added a tad bit more grit which will also do the trick, but I prefer to use the Borax.
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Post by Peruano on Jul 12, 2023 13:47:15 GMT -5
All true. When you don't have enough water, the rocks don't move, or they bang like popcorn in the pan. When you have too much they create the flying drops like you are describing. Its very easy to get too much water, and jason's cures are probably the obvious ones. I dont like to use Borax because its toxic to plants and tends to make things a bit more slimy than I like. I guess I'm hung up on my Dawn Liquid as a carrying agent. I sometimes regulate the speed of movement by adding or subtracting weight (i.e. stones) but thats assuming I've got the right water/git blend but still not the perfect action.
The salt shaker trick is a new one for me. I just touch/tap the spoon with the grit to the side of the vibratory barrel and the grit comes dancing out as fast or as slow as I want as I move around the vibrating rim.
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Post by jasoninsd on Jul 12, 2023 13:50:22 GMT -5
All true. When you don't have enough water, the rocks don't move, or they bang like popcorn in the pan. When you have too much they create the flying drops like you are describing. Its very easy to get too much water, and jason's cures are probably the obvious ones. I dont like to use Borax because its toxic to plants and tends to make things a bit more slimy than I like. I guess I'm hung up on my Dawn Liquid as a carrying agent. I sometimes regulate the speed of movement by adding or subtracting weight (i.e. stones) but thats assuming I've got the right water/git blend but still not the perfect action. The salt shaker trick is a new one for me. I just touch/tap the spoon with the grit to the side of the vibratory barrel and the grit comes dancing out as fast or as slow as I want as I move around the vibrating rim. Great suggestion ! I forgot about Dawn dish soap! I've used that too!!
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RockyBeach
starting to spend too much on rocks
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Member since July 2023
Posts: 240
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Post by RockyBeach on Jul 12, 2023 14:52:15 GMT -5
I don't actually use a salt shaker .. ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png) just meant that I shake the grit on from the measuring spoon rather than dumping it in one spot in a heap ! So it seems too much water is the issue. Shall go and add something ... I think I shall try the Borax first and see what happens. Maybe a little more grit ! If that doesn't help can I add the Dawn as well ? Edit ...me again ... How much Borax / Dawn ? ... ballpark figures as I know it will vary with how too much water there is. Are we talking teaspoons / tablespoons or fractions of cups.
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Post by Peruano on Jul 12, 2023 16:44:22 GMT -5
Adding grit as a thickening agent is probably dubious. When I've used too much grit or added it to fast before I had a soap covering on the rocks, I've had it cake/clump in the bottom of the bowl where its largely ineffective. If you really sense that you have too much water you can pour it off, but you are likely to loose grit and have to just guess about how much grit to re-add. But the quantity of grit is no a fixed number either. I'm experienced with vibe 5 sized machine where a couple of tablespoons of borax made a difference; ditto for soap. You have a bigger machine, but add slowly and see where you need to go. Again, I always run my machine without lid for the first hour or two while I'm insuring that everything is shaking correctly.
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RockyBeach
starting to spend too much on rocks
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Member since July 2023
Posts: 240
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Post by RockyBeach on Jul 12, 2023 17:11:39 GMT -5
Thanks again for the help Peruano Much appreciated ! Everything seems to be moving around and tumbling. I have read such horror stories about things being too dry that I probably over compensated and sprayed too liberally. The amount of grit to use is confusing me because the paperwork that came with the Vibe says 2 TB in one place and 6 oz in the other... quite a difference ! Both are directions specifically for the V10. The slurry seems to be a little more apparent after I added about 3 TB of Borax and another TB of grit as a compromise between 2 and 6. Will keep an eye on it all and watch some more how-to Videos. Most of them seem to be about the Thumbler but the basic idea is the same.
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RockyBeach
starting to spend too much on rocks
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Member since July 2023
Posts: 240
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Post by RockyBeach on Jul 13, 2023 15:53:00 GMT -5
I contacted Kingsley North (where I purchased the RayTech 10) to ask about the amount of grit to use - 2 TB is correct said my contact there. Asked about Dawn in that vibe because I read somewhere not to use it in certain bowls. I was told NOT to use Dawn in the RayTech as it can deteriorate the bowls and void the warranty. Input on this would be appreciated ! Is this just some sort of caution on their part ? I know many people use Dawn apparently with no ill effects but Thumblers and Lot-Os predominate in the videos <<Newbie sigh>>
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Post by velodromed on Jul 13, 2023 16:36:45 GMT -5
I have a raytech 5 and love it. It’s a good companion for my four rotary tumblers. With the rocks I run 60% ceramics and 40% misc small agate pebbles, typically I load it about 1/2” from the top, including the rocks. I rise all off and drain before putting in the vibe. Usually this is enough moisture to get it going. 1/2 tbs of borax and 2 teaspoons SiC grit. I watch it closely the first hour and spray water as needed. Once the action is going well, it only needs additional water once or twice a day. When I get to the polish stage I use 1 tbs borax and 1/2 to 1 teaspoon AO (aluminum oxide). I’ve been getting my grit supplies from Kingsley north and have found it good. I’m still experimenting with time frames. Typically I will run a SiC stages for 2 days and polish for up to 5. Good luck bud and enjoy!
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RockyBeach
starting to spend too much on rocks
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Member since July 2023
Posts: 240
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Post by RockyBeach on Jul 13, 2023 18:01:51 GMT -5
Thanks for your recipe and your encouragement velodromed . My ceramics to rock ratio in this batch is about what you use as I was short on rocks and anxious to try it out ! I was worried that I had too many ceramics! 5 uses 2 tsp grit and 1/2 tb borax So ...If my math works out ... 10 would use 2 TB grit (6 tsp) and 1 1/2 TB borax Learning what tumbling looks like when it is "going well" is the current problem but that will be easier with experience (I hope ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) ) I did drain the machine, strain out the water and replace some of it ... I have the splashing water problem solved (I think !!) I realize now that I should probably have gotten the five instead of the ten. It seemed like a good idea the time ... bigger capacity machine for not all that much more $$$. I like the idea that it won't take weeks to see the results !
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Post by velodromed on Jul 13, 2023 19:31:29 GMT -5
Thanks for your recipe and your encouragement velodromed . My ceramics to rock ratio in this batch is about what you use as I was short on rocks and anxious to try it out ! I was worried that I had too many ceramics! 5 uses 2 tsp grit and 1/2 tb borax So ...If my math works out ... 10 would use 2 TB grit (6 tsp) and 1 1/2 TB borax Learning what tumbling looks like when it is "going well" is the current problem but that will be easier with experience (I hope ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) ) I did drain the machine, strain out the water and replace some of it ... I have the splashing water problem solved (I think !!) I realize now that I should probably have gotten the five instead of the ten. It seemed like a good idea the time ... bigger capacity machine for not all that much more $$$. I like the idea that it won't take weeks to see the results ! I’m curious…do you have a rotary tumbler? I do all my stage 1 tumbling in 4 different tumblers. I only use the vibe for stages 2-5. I wish I’d gotten the 10 lol. Eventually I will. My raytech loads everything towards the left a bit, so I elevate it a few MM on that side and it mostly evens out. Good action for me is when the rocks are constantly ‘rolling’ while slowly rotating around the center. Hope that makes sense. I wouldn’t double the amount of grit/borax. Go up by 1/4th. These vibes are awfully efficient with grit use. Try 1.25 tbs of borax and 1.25 tbs of SiC, then adjust the recipe until it works. Get a small spray bottle also. It really is the best way to add moisture. As for the lid, I use the rubber nuts for sure. The first one I tighten down until it slightly bulges. For the lid, I put a small dot of grease in the round, raised part that fits over the first rubber nut, and literally turn the lid, tightening it down till it doesn’t rock. If it rocks, I loosen the first rubber nut to reduce the ‘bulge’. Then I put the second rubber nut on tightly till it bulges a bit and lastly, a regular nut tightened down on top of the second rubber nut to keep it from loosening. So far this is what I’ve figured out in the last 4 months since I bought it. It’s helped me produce some beautiful rocks. It’s a trial and error thing, so experiment and enjoy!
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Post by jasoninsd on Jul 13, 2023 20:40:50 GMT -5
RockyBeach - I just caught your question about how much Borax to add. I don't measure it. I add a little at a time (like your salt shaker method!) until I get the consistency I'm looking for. I don't think it's ever been more than a tablespoon for a UV18. Hmmm...that seems odd about Raytech's response about using Dawn dish soap. I'm stumped as to why they'd be claiming possible deterioration of the bowl...
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RockyBeach
starting to spend too much on rocks
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Member since July 2023
Posts: 240
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Post by RockyBeach on Jul 13, 2023 22:55:33 GMT -5
Thanks for your recipe and your encouragement velodromed . My ceramics to rock ratio in this batch is about what you use as I was short on rocks and anxious to try it out ! I was worried that I had too many ceramics! 5 uses 2 tsp grit and 1/2 tb borax So ...If my math works out ... 10 would use 2 TB grit (6 tsp) and 1 1/2 TB borax Learning what tumbling looks like when it is "going well" is the current problem but that will be easier with experience (I hope ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) ) I did drain the machine, strain out the water and replace some of it ... I have the splashing water problem solved (I think !!) I realize now that I should probably have gotten the five instead of the ten. It seemed like a good idea the time ... bigger capacity machine for not all that much more $$$. I like the idea that it won't take weeks to see the results ! I’m curious…do you have a rotary tumbler? I do all my stage 1 tumbling in 4 different tumblers. I only use the vibe for stages 2-5. I wish I’d gotten the 10 lol. Eventually I will. My raytech loads everything towards the left a bit, so I elevate it a few MM on that side and it mostly evens out. Good action for me is when the rocks are constantly ‘rolling’ while slowly rotating around the center. Hope that makes sense. I wouldn’t double the amount of grit/borax. Go up by 1/4th. These vibes are awfully efficient with grit use. Try 1.25 tbs of borax and 1.25 tbs of SiC, then adjust the recipe until it works. Get a small spray bottle also. It really is the best way to add moisture. As for the lid, I use the rubber nuts for sure. The first one I tighten down until it slightly bulges. For the lid, I put a small dot of grease in the round, raised part that fits over the first rubber nut, and literally turn the lid, tightening it down till it doesn’t rock. If it rocks, I loosen the first rubber nut to reduce the ‘bulge’. Then I put the second rubber nut on tightly till it bulges a bit and lastly, a regular nut tightened down on top of the second rubber nut to keep it from loosening. So far this is what I’ve figured out in the last 4 months since I bought it. It’s helped me produce some beautiful rocks. It’s a trial and error thing, so experiment and enjoy! Yep ... I have a rotary tumbler ...it's a Harbor Freight . Actually have two of them ..one was cannibalized from two who went bad on me. Long sad story is in another thread. From your description of the action, , it seems that the machine is behaving as it should ... rolling and rotating ? Check ! Yay ! Will try the revised recipe when I get to stage three ..any day now. Again..YAY ! Have been using the spray bottle for adding water but will not be as generous with it the next go round. Going by the pictures, the 10 has a different fastening system from the five. One rubberized large washer and a plain metal large and small washer. I messaged Kingsley North asking what order the washers go on and they asked me to send them a picture .... I did not do so because that made no sense to me. Have used the rubberized one inside the barrel and the large and then the small one on the lid. That seems to be working. I am really looking forward to seeing the results. Thanks again for the info and the encouraging words.
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RockyBeach
starting to spend too much on rocks
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Member since July 2023
Posts: 240
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Post by RockyBeach on Jul 13, 2023 23:03:19 GMT -5
RockyBeach - I just caught your question about how much Borax to add. I don't measure it. I add a little at a time (like your salt shaker method!) until I get the consistency I'm looking for. I don't think it's ever been more than a tablespoon for a UV18. Hmmm...that seems odd about Raytech's response about using Dawn dish soap. I'm stumped as to why they'd be claiming possible deterioration of the bowl... Another follow up note to K-North after they said " no Dawn !!!" I asked if it was ok to use Borax and they said to wash the bowl with Ivory Soap and to avoid "harsh chemicals". As far as I know, Dawn is supposed to be one of the more gentle dish soaps ... they even use it to de-grease ducks caught in oil spills. My contact did not specifically address the Borax Question. If a bowl can stand being beaten for days by rocks and cannot take a little soap ... gotta wonder, eh ?
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Post by velodromed on Jul 14, 2023 11:40:25 GMT -5
RockyBeachThe rubber washer goes on top of the lid, under a medium sized washer. I can’t tell if anything is between the underside of the lid and the plastic column. But I bet the large washer goes there. I suggest getting on YouTube and doing a good bit of research, that’s what I did with mine. Make sure you’re totally setting it up right before trying to fine turn the action. Also, when I said I like the action to ‘roll’ and slowly rotate around the bowl spindle…I meant that it should roll fairly fast but rotate very slowly around the bowl. I mean like a couple rotations/minute. I’ve notice that if I use too much water it will rotate faster. So then I’ll open the tumbler and run it without to top for a bit. The box fan I keep aimed at my tumblers helps dry the extra moisture and I close it back up when the action has improved. ![](https://res.cloudinary.com/dtgm9gehz/image/upload/v1689352787/vjbs0rkkbznzcw9u2npb.jpg)
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RockyBeach
starting to spend too much on rocks
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Member since July 2023
Posts: 240
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Post by RockyBeach on Jul 14, 2023 12:43:50 GMT -5
thanks again for the input, velodromed That washer arrangement on the lid looks about right. The other large one must go inside on the barrel itself where I had the rubberized one. Need to swap places. That is why I asked at Kingsley and their answer was less than helpful. Their paperwork really needs to be revised for first time users when there are three washers of three different styles involved and where they go is not self evident. Newbies have such angst filled problems, eh? Anyway I changed to stage 3 grit this morning using the new recipe and more controlled water ... rocks seem to be rolling and rotating and looking slurryish so things have improved !
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