pantagruel
starting to shine!
Member since November 2023
Posts: 34 
|
Post by pantagruel on Jan 9, 2024 15:04:36 GMT -5
Hi All, I'm trying to decide my next steps/purchases as I’m writing up a Chicago-based arts grant application where I could get up to $5000 for equipment. About 25% are awarded, and they’re looking for those who’ve not applied before (I’ve not), so maybe my chances are above 1:4… I'm posting here (Flat Lap etc) instead of equipment, because I'd love for the faceting people to easily see it (reasons apparent below).
I’m considering purchasing new faceting and cabbing machines. For just a faceting machine, that money (plus a bit of mine) opens up just about every model. But to buy a cabbing machine as well (let’s say $1500 for a 6” model plus 1-2 accessories)…then that seems to pretty strongly limit what I can get. I’d love some help thinking through and/or ideas/suggestions/etc to see how I can do this. I’m open to buying used, but I’ve just not had any luck in searching over the last few years.
My situation: I live in an apt/condo (that I own and love), and I'm unable to lift/move heavy things often. I do have an area I can dedicate to (more) lapidary, though it’s a 2nd bedroom space, so it’d be great if what I buy doesn’t have a large spray radius. There’s also no water hookup/drain without running a 25’ hose (from a sink faucet???). I have a small outdoor, open air deck (wooden, above others) where I've used a table saw, but that's not working great in the winter. There isn't any water hookup on the deck, and I'd really rather be working indoors anyway.
I currently have a 4-lb mini-sonic, and one rotary unit with two 3-lb barrels, as well as that 7” wet tile saw with a thin diamond blade. I purchased the tile saw bc at the time it was my best option regarding cost and function. Not necessarily looking to upgrade that yet.
In 3-5 years I may need to rely on lapidary (and chainmaille, which I've been doing for years) as primary income, but all and only from home. I can't make it to shows or even sit a table for a half day due to health reasons. What I’m doing now isn’t really income-generating, but my skill with what I have could be.
I'm fascinated by faceting, and have an inkling that I'll do very well with it. I’ve been hoping for years that I’d be one of those people who have a machine and accessories/etc just dropped in their lap (drums x2, cymbals), but alas, that’s not me. One book I have teaches only for mast and hand piece machines, so I’m leaning toward one of those. I don’t have the Herbst texts, so I don’t know what those include/exclude in their teaching. I wasn’t planning on buying them (or more) until I had a machine in hand.
I feel like I’m way overdue getting a cabbing machine. I've considered alternatives: a flat lap of some kind, a wet grinder/polisher, a wet belt grinder, just using my rotary tool, etc, and I'm not happy with any of them. I was first quite interested in the Pixie, bc it is lightweight, has a bunch of possible attachments, etc, though those wheels are pretty small and the edge around the base doesn't look terribly comfortable. I certainly have space for a 6” machine, and probably could fit an 8”. I like the idea of being able to attach a saw, but that’s not required for me.
I don’t have any brand love/hate (though I do love my mini-sonic and its design!), completely open regarding that.
For those suggesting I only get a cabbing machine and better saw: wouldn’t it be lovely to be able to also get a better saw? I’m pretty set in getting a faceting machine, should this funding come through. Unfortunately, the cabbing machine feels second to me.
Thank you!
|
|
|
|
Post by chris1956 on Jan 9, 2024 15:32:34 GMT -5
I don't know anything about faceting. I have a Kingsley North cabbing machine which I like a lot. I think the cabbing machines I have heard the most about on the forum are Cab King and Kingsley North. One thing to keep in mind is weight. The Kingsley North cabbing units are stainless steel construciton and pretty heavy. I think the Cab King and Diamond Pacific units have a lot more plastic and may not be as heavy.
For water, you can get a 5 gallon bucket and small pump. An alternative would be a gravity feed system. But either way you would have to carry the water to your equipment.
|
|
pantagruel
starting to shine!
Member since November 2023
Posts: 34
|
Post by pantagruel on Jan 9, 2024 17:19:40 GMT -5
I don't know anything about faceting. I have a Kingsley North cabbing machine which I like a lot. I think the cabbing machines I have heard the most about on the forum are Cab King and Kingsley North. One thing to keep in mind is weight. The Kingsley North cabbing units are stainless steel construciton and pretty heavy. I think the Cab King and Diamond Pacific units have a lot more plastic and may not be as heavy. For water, you can get a 5 gallon bucket and small pump. An alternative would be a gravity feed system. But either way you would have to carry the water to your equipment. Yes--stainless steel vs plastic is one of the many things running through my head for a cabbing machine. If I can put it in a place where it won't need to move while I'm living here, then weight isn't as big a deal--as long as I don't need to adjust it for draining or cleaning. And thank you for reminding me about the pump and gravity options! Solves that quandary! I image this differs based on machine and user, but any idea about how long a gallon of clean water lasts? |
|
|
|
Post by chris1956 on Jan 9, 2024 17:53:47 GMT -5
I don't know anything about faceting. I have a Kingsley North cabbing machine which I like a lot. I think the cabbing machines I have heard the most about on the forum are Cab King and Kingsley North. One thing to keep in mind is weight. The Kingsley North cabbing units are stainless steel construciton and pretty heavy. I think the Cab King and Diamond Pacific units have a lot more plastic and may not be as heavy. For water, you can get a 5 gallon bucket and small pump. An alternative would be a gravity feed system. But either way you would have to carry the water to your equipment. Yes--stainless steel vs plastic is one of the many things running through my head for a cabbing machine. If I can put it in a place where it won't need to move while I'm living here, then weight isn't as big a deal--as long as I don't need to adjust it for draining or cleaning. And thank you for reminding me about the pump and gravity options! Solves that quandary! I image this differs based on machine and user, but any idea about how long a gallon of clean water lasts? I think if you have a gravity system, you would probably use less water. I use 5 gallon bucket of water with a pump. The small pumps you get supply a lot of water and I don't like to pinch the pump flow rate down too much (can be hard on the pump). One thing you can do with a pump is to setup a bypass line back to the bucket. This will require some small valves but it isn't too complicated to set up. That way you can bypass back to the bucket while you are inspecting your work or adjust the supply and bypass with the valve (rather than wasting water or turning the pump off). If I had to guess, I would say that I use 1 to 2 gallons an hour with my setup which includes the bypass and a pump. But I have easy access to water and I can throw out the drainage outside real easy so I don't monitor it too closely. When you mentioned drainage it reminded me of one thing I don't like about the Kingsley North cabber that might be important to you. It has always leaked especially where the top plate connects to the back plate behind the wheels. I solved almost all of this leakage by putting some weather stripping sealant along the connection. The end plates also leak at times. I don't know how other cabbing machines are for leakage like that. You are going to have to deal with spray in front of the machine but not much you can do about that. Hope this helps. |
|
|
|
Post by liveoak on Jan 9, 2024 19:29:02 GMT -5
I know nothing about faceting machines, but I'll add in my 2 cents on cabbers. I have a KN 6" and would highly recommend it. YES, it does leak some, so make sure you install it on a non-wood bench so it's not an issue. I installed extra gaskets, which helped a lot, and use plexiglass shields on the ends. But it is controllable, with a couple of handy kitchen towels.
I also use a spare bedroom as my studio and was sold on the KN that it didn't make a spraying mess. I saw the review from Rob @ Michigan Rocks and thought that it sure looked like it wasn't making too much of a mess, and I have no regrets. I also like the extra space that the KN has between the wheels - opens up a lot more possibilities.
Hope your grant writing is successful for both machines 
Patty
|
|
skrapyard
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since June 2023
Posts: 75
|
Post by skrapyard on Jan 10, 2024 10:42:16 GMT -5
If you can afford it with the grant definitely go for a good, well known brand of facet machine. I havent heard much good about the cheap ebay/amazon ones.
I wouldnt suggest getting a hand piece or jam peg machine. Some people do great work with the hand piece (raytech style) ones, but I just didnt like using one when I tried it. Your results may vary. If you can find someone, somewhere to test a machine out, that could help.
When I started out I learned on a Gem Master II machine, which is an awesome, top of the line machine. But they are tough to find for sale and since the company stopped making them you have to buy used. Currently Im using an Ultra Tec V2 and its a great machine. Just through personal experience I would say if you can afford the Ultra Tec, go for it. Ive heard good things about the Facetron machines too.
There isnt much water spray from running the facet machine. I do keep a small drop cloth behind my machine to catch the little bit of water spray that does come off of it. There isnt much, but it was leaving stains on the wall behind the machine so I put up the drop cloth.
I cant say the same for my Cab King 6". I get water all over when using that thing. Enough that I found a boot tray the machine fits in to catch water on the bench. And another large boot tray to put on the ground in front of the bench the machine is on to catch water too.
|
|
|
|
Post by chris1956 on Jan 10, 2024 13:26:28 GMT -5
I know nothing about faceting machines, but I'll add in my 2 cents on cabbers. I have a KN 6" and would highly recommend it. YES, it does leak some, so make sure you install it on a non-wood bench so it's not an issue. I installed extra gaskets, which helped a lot, and use plexiglass shields on the ends. But it is controllable, with a couple of handy kitchen towels.
I also use a spare bedroom as my studio and was sold on the KN that it didn't make a spraying mess. I saw the review from Rob @ Michigan Rocks and thought that it sure looked like it wasn't making too much of a mess, and I have no regrets. I also like the extra space that the KN has between the wheels - opens up a lot more possibilities.
Hope your grant writing is successful for both machines
Patty
Hope my comments didn't sound too negative about the KN unit. I like you added shields on the ends and can easily deal with the spray off the front. Still sometimes get a little leakage on the bottom of the metal plates on the ends but it isn't too much. |
|
|
|
Post by Starguy on Jan 10, 2024 14:08:51 GMT -5
pantagruelFaceting is fun. Get a good machine. They need to be accurate to reproduce angles or you will be disappointed. Once you get the hang of it, it’s faster than you would think. The hardest parts are working with tiny stones and transferring between the crown and pavilion. I recommend a 96 index wheel for beginning. It gives you all the factors of 12. Good luck. Let us know what you come up with
|
|
ThomasT
has rocks in the head
Member since June 2022
Posts: 616
|
Post by ThomasT on Jan 10, 2024 16:19:54 GMT -5
I can only let you know, with the little we know on equipment choices you may be considering:
We have had an Ultra Tec faceting machine with digital mast for several years now, and it has been a fine machine.
As for as a cabbing machine we have more than one and the HP CB8 made from the stainless has been a fine machine.
We set up a low flow water pumping and water recycling system underneath it on a stainless cart and it works very well.
As Starguy says "get a good machine", good machines are best as a long-term investment.
For what it's worth... best regards.
|
|
|
|
Post by pauls on Jan 10, 2024 16:41:15 GMT -5
I agree about getting a good faceting machine, consider it an investment, they hold their value. Look around for a second hand machine, the price of a good machine will still be close to new but the laps and bits and pieces that often come with a second hand machine can be a gold mine.
|
|
pantagruel
starting to shine!
Member since November 2023
Posts: 34
|
Post by pantagruel on Jan 10, 2024 22:54:50 GMT -5
Yes--stainless steel vs plastic is one of the many things running through my head for a cabbing machine. If I can put it in a place where it won't need to move while I'm living here, then weight isn't as big a deal--as long as I don't need to adjust it for draining or cleaning. And thank you for reminding me about the pump and gravity options! Solves that quandary! I image this differs based on machine and user, but any idea about how long a gallon of clean water lasts? I think if you have a gravity system, you would probably use less water. I use 5 gallon bucket of water with a pump. The small pumps you get supply a lot of water and I don't like to pinch the pump flow rate down too much (can be hard on the pump). One thing you can do with a pump is to setup a bypass line back to the bucket. This will require some small valves but it isn't too complicated to set up. That way you can bypass back to the bucket while you are inspecting your work or adjust the supply and bypass with the valve (rather than wasting water or turning the pump off). If I had to guess, I would say that I use 1 to 2 gallons an hour with my setup which includes the bypass and a pump. But I have easy access to water and I can throw out the drainage outside real easy so I don't monitor it too closely. When you mentioned drainage it reminded me of one thing I don't like about the Kingsley North cabber that might be important to you. It has always leaked especially where the top plate connects to the back plate behind the wheels. I solved almost all of this leakage by putting some weather stripping sealant along the connection. The end plates also leak at times. I don't know how other cabbing machines are for leakage like that. You are going to have to deal with spray in front of the machine but not much you can do about that. Hope this helps. Yes! Thank you! I love hearing how others have adapted things (you adding a bypass line), because it reminds me that these machines aren't necessarily static. Thanks for the tip about the KN cabber. Unless I get rid of it beforehand, this will sit on a 4'x6' oak desk that last lived in the caboose of a retired train in Arizona. I've not looked fully into options, but was thinking about what kind of absorptive mat with at an impermeable base that I can place underneath. Though it might be better to have the cabber on a stand/table sized for it. I know nothing about faceting machines, but I'll add in my 2 cents on cabbers. I have a KN 6" and would highly recommend it. YES, it does leak some, so make sure you install it on a non-wood bench so it's not an issue. I installed extra gaskets, which helped a lot, and use plexiglass shields on the ends. But it is controllable, with a couple of handy kitchen towels.
I also use a spare bedroom as my studio and was sold on the KN that it didn't make a spraying mess. I saw the review from Rob @ Michigan Rocks and thought that it sure looked like it wasn't making too much of a mess, and I have no regrets. I also like the extra space that the KN has between the wheels - opens up a lot more possibilities.
Hope your grant writing is successful for both machines Patty
Patty, I also saw Rob's review, and loved to see that it didn't make a spraying mess. Thank you for letting me know that you also use a spare bedroom--this is giving me more confidence in my plan! I can only let you know, with the little we know on equipment choices you may be considering: We have had an Ultra Tec faceting machine with digital mast for several years now, and it has been a fine machine. As for as a cabbing machine we have more than one and the HP CB8 made from the stainless has been a fine machine. We set up a low flow water pumping and water recycling system underneath it on a stainless cart and it works very well. As Starguy says "get a good machine", good machines are best as a long-term investment. For what it's worth... best regards. Oh! Thank you for letting me know your experience with the HP CB8! Theirs is another I'm strongly considering. I like the "improvements" they've done on KN's machines (curved front rim, thicker stainless steel body, drains slighyly below bottom level of the device, etc) I'm excited that might I have this opportunity to buy new machines, and I do only want to get a good one. This feels a bit more clear to me re: cabbing machines, probably because I've watched more videos / read more about them. |
|
pantagruel
starting to shine!
Member since November 2023
Posts: 34
|
Post by pantagruel on Jan 11, 2024 1:02:47 GMT -5
If you can afford it with the grant definitely go for a good, well known brand of facet machine. I havent heard much good about the cheap ebay/amazon ones. I wouldnt suggest getting a hand piece or jam peg machine. Some people do great work with the hand piece (raytech style) ones, but I just didnt like using one when I tried it. Your results may vary. If you can find someone, somewhere to test a machine out, that could help. When I started out I learned on a Gem Master II machine, which is an awesome, top of the line machine. But they are tough to find for sale and since the company stopped making them you have to buy used. Currently Im using an Ultra Tec V2 and its a great machine. Just through personal experience I would say if you can afford the Ultra Tec, go for it. Ive heard good things about the Facetron machines too. There isnt much water spray from running the facet machine. I do keep a small drop cloth behind my machine to catch the little bit of water spray that does come off of it. There isnt much, but it was leaving stains on the wall behind the machine so I put up the drop cloth. I cant say the same for my Cab King 6". I get water all over when using that thing. Enough that I found a boot tray the machine fits in to catch water on the bench. And another large boot tray to put on the ground in front of the bench the machine is on to catch water too. Thank you--this is what I'm hoping to do (get a well-known brand of facet machine). I've seen the cheap ones and I won't be purchasing those. I wish I had access to test at least one out, but I don't. I've mostly been leaning toward a mast machine, because the look of them makes the most sense to me, but I didn't want to leave hand piece out. It's taking *forever* to find working websites for some of the brands, and to even figure out how much some would cost. I've recently found this group of youtube machine reviews, so that will help me. I finally saw Raytech's today, which was exciting to see that I could get the machine and most of what I need for $2600, though I'll keep in mind what you've said about hand piece. If I add my money, I can get an Ultra Tec V5 digital. Saving $1100 I could also get their VL digital, which I don't know much about (yet!). I cannot figure out how/where to purchase a Facetron machine. The website has a pop-up saying "This site is currently under construction. All information is purely informational. — Orders through the store will not be fulfilled." If I could figure this out, the "Facetron complete kit" is $4500. pantagruel Faceting is fun. Get a good machine. They need to be accurate to reproduce angles or you will be disappointed. Once you get the hang of it, it’s faster than you would think. The hardest parts are working with tiny stones and transferring between the crown and pavilion. I recommend a 96 index wheel for beginning. It gives you all the factors of 12. Good luck. Let us know what you come up with Thank you--appreciate this info. And I will! The application is due Tuesday, so I'll have things decided over the weekend. I agree about getting a good faceting machine, consider it an investment, they hold their value. Look around for a second hand machine, the price of a good machine will still be close to new but the laps and bits and pieces that often come with a second hand machine can be a gold mine. This is what I've seen with used machines as well, but will keep an eye out for the "gold mines"! Part of me wants to just lean toward Ultra Tec, not only bc I could get the fantasy machine down the line. I guess my homework is to learn more about the V5 and VL (and what their differences are and why), find out if it's possible to buy a Facetron and where, and maybe a few other things. Thank you everyone! Sincerely--this has been quite helpful! |
|
skrapyard
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since June 2023
Posts: 75
|
Post by skrapyard on Jan 11, 2024 17:20:04 GMT -5
pantagruel I hadnt heard about the VL machine so I just took a look at them. It looks like the big difference between the VL and V5 series is how the mast height is adjusted and how head swings on the mast. The V5 has a ballscrew that runs the full length of the mast from top to bottom and you turn the wheel on the top to adjust the height of the head on the mast. With the V5 you have to keep cranking the wheel on top for any height adjustments all the way from the top to the bottom. On the VL you loosen the handle on the back of the head on the mast and move the head by hand close to where you need it, tighten the handle, and then you use the micrometer type adjustment on the top of the mast for your final fine adjustment of height. When actually cutting a stone the head on the V5 swings back and forth off of the mast. Where the head on the VL is fixed to the mast and you rotate the entire mast back and forth. At least, this is what I am gathering from looking at the VL machine and taking a quick look at its user guide. Im not sure how much of a difference in quality the stones made would be between a V5 or a VL. But its a safe bet that the VL is a great quality machine and would hold some very tight tolerances. If it were me, I would probably pick up a VL since the price is lower and Im kinda frugal lol. edit to add: Between digital or analog dials. Personally I like the analog more than digital. Something about having a mechanical dial that doesnt need power and I can see what its doing. To me its just easier to work with. But there is nothing wrong with the digital ones.
|
|
pantagruel
starting to shine!
Member since November 2023
Posts: 34
|
Post by pantagruel on Feb 1, 2024 22:45:21 GMT -5
An overdue update: I decided to get the HP 6" CB6, which is backordered right now, and, at least in the grant application, decided on the ultra tec VL with the digital device.
Because I'm constantly daydreaming about faceting, I've looked on a few Facebook groups for used machines. The best option I'm fielding is an old Sapphire machine with tons of laps, dops, and more for $550 + a 4 hr round-trip drive to pick up. Sometime else has a V2 for $1300, but hasn't responded to the DM he asked for.
I appreciate everyone's input! Thank you again!
|
|
