zebra61
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2024
Posts: 161
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Post by zebra61 on Feb 16, 2024 11:24:05 GMT -5
So I had a weak moment a few weeks ago and bought a DP Mini Sonic MT-14 vibratory tumbler from my favorite local lapidary vendor? Should I mention names? Or is that verboten? Anyway I was seriously considering another Lot-O but every time someone says 'Lot-O' online the trolls come out to bash the device. Noisy, bad motors, broken spring, my cap broke, blah, blah, blah. (Mine is only 3 months old but it's been excellent). Yes there's a learning curve but that goes with any device right?
Anyway I kinda felt like a cheating husband when I bought the thing but I wanted my own experience with the Mini Sonic and I had a bunch of reward points burning a hole in my pocket. (Why would I waste that on home repairs or some other stupid purchase?)
When my vendor asked me about my plans for the device my response was pretty simple... 'finishing'. And he proceeded to say, 'Good, if you're just doing the polishing stages in this it'll be great. But if you plan to run it like the Lot-O with 120/220 grits you better start looking for a spare barrel now.' (Paraphrased of course...)
Now obviously the barrel on the Mini Sonic is made out of some semi-solid plasitcy material while the Lot-O is made of rubber. I'm wondering if anyone has had personal experience with barrel degradation by using grits coarser than say 500? Is this common knowledge among other DP Mini Sonic owners?
I trust my vendor when he offers advice like this since he's probably dealt with a few disappointed MS owners in his day. But what's the old saying? Trust but verify?
Thanks and sorry for being so wordy. If you met me in person you'd wonder why I rarely speak.. (sorry-2)
Mark
BTW: I have no opinion about which one is better at this point, I'm still getting used to both of them.,
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Post by chris1956 on Feb 16, 2024 13:12:00 GMT -5
I have a Mini and have two barrels. One I use for 220 and 500/600 and the other for polish. I haven't noticed any large scale degradation of the barrel for the coarser stages but I will look later on today. I have seen a little pitting on the cover for the coarse barrel but it isn't too bad. Stuff (grit or polish) does tend to stick to the inside of the barrel so a brush down when cleaning is typically needed. Because of the pitting and stuff sticking, I would get a second barrel if you want to run coarser grit. My Mini has been running pretty much continuously now for just over a year.
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zebra61
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2024
Posts: 161
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Post by zebra61 on Feb 16, 2024 20:20:02 GMT -5
I have a Mini and have two barrels. One I use for 220 and 500/600 and the other for polish. I haven't noticed any large scale degradation of the barrel for the coarser stages but I will look later on today. I have seen a little pitting on the cover for the coarse barrel but it isn't too bad. Stuff (grit or polish) does tend to stick to the inside of the barrel so a brush down when cleaning is typically needed. Because of the pitting and stuff sticking, I would get a second barrel if you want to run coarser grit. My Mini has been running pretty much continuously now for just over a year. Thanks for the advice chris1956. I've only been using my Mini for pre-polish and final polish so far. The coarse stages in my rotary tumblers and then move things to one of the vibratory tumblers. My cleaning between stages could probably be much better but I'm using a 1" bottle brush to scrub between stages. Hopefully I'm doing a good job. I'm curious about your 220/500 barrel and whether you can see any noticeable wear. I'll probably grab another barrel if I decide to run 500 or coarser grits, that seems like a good way to go. Mark |
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Post by chris1956 on Feb 16, 2024 20:33:12 GMT -5
Glad you reminded me because I forgot about it even though I took pics. The "dark shiny" inside portion in the pics appears to have been worn smooth by the rocks/grit. This didn't look much different than the one I use for polish. I didn't have a good way to measure thickness but there isn't any more "give" to the barrel that I use for 220/600 grit as compared to the polish barrel. As best I can tell, it looks fine. I use rotary for 30 to 80 grit stage. I think part of the reason I haven't worried about it is that the Mini manual indicates using it for Stage 1 (60/90) grit. So I would think (dangerous sometimes) that 220 and finer should be ok.   |
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Post by chris1956 on Feb 16, 2024 20:35:50 GMT -5
Just thought of one other thing. I have tried to be better about not moving rocks along from coarse stage until they are well rounded. I could see that if you put sharp rocks in the mini, it might create a lot more wear since it is a harder material.
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skmcconnell361
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since August 2023
Posts: 125 
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Post by skmcconnell361 on Feb 19, 2024 11:58:42 GMT -5
I just recently ordered a Mini Sonic MT-4 and two extra barrels, Most of the places I could find simply said not available, But the store I ordered from said that was drop shipped from DP and expected 4 to 12-week lead time for shipping and 2 to 4 weeks for the extra barrels. I have read here and other places that you should not use vibratory tumblers for the course stage and also should have a separate barrel for each stage with the vibratory type tumblers. so going with the advice as best as I can. When the MT-4 finally arrives it will be my first Vibratoy type tumbler.
I already have 2 National Geographic hobby tumblers and 2 Harbor Freight dual barrel tumblers so they should be great for the Course 60/90 stage. so the should help preserve one of the MT-4 barrels.
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zebra61
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2024
Posts: 161
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Post by zebra61 on Feb 19, 2024 21:20:41 GMT -5
I just recently ordered a Mini Sonic MT-4 and two extra barrels, Most of the places I could find simply said not available, But the store I ordered from said that was drop shipped from DP and expected 4 to 12-week lead time for shipping and 2 to 4 weeks for the extra barrels. I have read here and other places that you should not use vibratory tumblers for the course stage and also should have a separate barrel for each stage with the vibratory type tumblers. so going with the advice as best as I can. When the MT-4 finally arrives it will be my first Vibratoy type tumbler. I already have 2 National Geographic hobby tumblers and 2 Harbor Freight dual barrel tumblers so they should be great for the Course 60/90 stage. so the should help preserve one of the MT-4 barrels. My bet is that you'll really enjoy the simplicity of your new vibratory. I've had a Lot-O for about 3 months now and it's been a game-changer for finishing my tumbles. I'm still working out some of my other tumbling failures (mainly bruising) but putting a deep shine on my batches has been much easier with the vibe. I also went a little crazy and picked up a MT-4 after hearing so much about them. Hence this thread... My original plan was to make my own little comparison of my vibes to see which was the right choice. It didn't start out this way but since buying the MT-4, my Lot-O has been relegated to running the 120/220 stage and then moving the load to the MT-4 for pre-polish and final polish. At least that's the plan for now, I'm currently running my first polish batch in the MT-4 so we'll see how that comes out next week. Maybe I should run the 120/220 in the MT-4 and the polish stages in the Lot-O? Time will tell. I like to experiment with things so tumbling falls right into that category. Of course judging some of the results is really a matter of opinion. (Would a microscope confirm those results?) Your decision to buy extra barrels is a smart one in my humble opinion, I'm going to do the same thing down the line. A few years ago I would never have believed that cross-contamination of grits in the barrel was such a critical thing... I've learned the hard way. Thanks for the response and be sure to let us know how your vibratory experience goes okay? I for one am curious. Mark |
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skmcconnell361
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since August 2023
Posts: 125
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Post by skmcconnell361 on Feb 20, 2024 14:27:56 GMT -5
You may need a microscope to tell the difference if any, or a instrument to measure the shine
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hplcman
spending too much on rocks
Looking forward to my Friday Night Barrel Clean out!
Member since August 2022
Posts: 493
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Post by hplcman on Feb 20, 2024 15:21:06 GMT -5
You may need a microscope to tell the difference if any, or a instrument to measure the shine I have been thinking about that, and how to quantitatively determine the level of shine on the surface of a rock. I think it would be a combination of determining the level of reflectance off the surface of that rock, as well observe the surface microscopically for surface imperfections/degree of polish? |
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rocknewb101
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since October 2022
Posts: 1,368
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Post by rocknewb101 on Feb 20, 2024 15:35:03 GMT -5
As someone who has used both machines I'll die saying the mini is far superior to not only use and run correctly, but also with results. I had nothing but trouble with my lot-o from a dead motor after a couple months of use to improperly placed dowel rod. They did send a new motor, so I'll give them that, but I was never able to get it to roll properly - I tried all kinds of things, no luck. I've only had the mini for about 6 months or so...but I do all but stage 1 in it with zero issues. My barrel is as intact now as it was day one. Ask me again in 2 years...who knows, but I don't see any issue at all - I'm running a stage 2 batch right now. With all of this being said - I'm one person with one experience. This was my experience and may not be yours. I think you should use whichever machine you prefer and take the rest of this with a grain of salt. Happy Tumbling!!
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stefan
Cave Dweller 
Member since January 2005
Posts: 14,113
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Post by stefan on Feb 20, 2024 18:22:49 GMT -5
I use one barrel for 120/220; 500; 1000; and pre-polish. The second one is polish only. Been a year and I suspect that at the rate it wears I probably only have another 50 or so years left on the "rough" barrel. Probably 100 years on the polish barrel. Yes there is a little pitting, but it is so minor it is hardly noticeable. I also use sooo much less grit than is recommended.
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zebra61
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2024
Posts: 161
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Post by zebra61 on Feb 21, 2024 13:36:25 GMT -5
You may need a microscope to tell the difference if any, or a instrument to measure the shine "Need"..  I'm not going to acquire a microscope. That's where I draw the line. (Although my line drawing has been kind of poor lately) |
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zebra61
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2024
Posts: 161
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Post by zebra61 on Feb 21, 2024 14:08:15 GMT -5
As someone who has used both machines I'll die saying the mini is far superior to not only use and run correctly, but also with results. I had nothing but trouble with my lot-o from a dead motor after a couple months of use to improperly placed dowel rod. They did send a new motor, so I'll give them that, but I was never able to get it to roll properly - I tried all kinds of things, no luck. I've only had the mini for about 6 months or so...but I do all but stage 1 in it with zero issues. My barrel is as intact now as it was day one. Ask me again in 2 years...who knows, but I don't see any issue at all - I'm running a stage 2 batch right now. With all of this being said - I'm one person with one experience. This was my experience and may not be yours. I think you should use whichever machine you prefer and take the rest of this with a grain of salt. Happy Tumbling!! Great post rocknewb101! While I'm still trying to decide which one I like better, there are pro's & con's to both IMHO. When I hit 6 months of use with each I ( might) have enough experience with both to say something as definitive. One of my initial concerns was the advice I received about the vulnerability of the MT-4 barrel. While I haven't actually tested out the barrel with anything coarser than a 500 yet, I have full intentions of running the 120/220 in the MT-4 just like I do with the Lot-O. That's only fair right? |
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zebra61
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2024
Posts: 161
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Post by zebra61 on Feb 21, 2024 14:15:54 GMT -5
I use one barrel for 120/220; 500; 1000; and pre-polish. The second one is polish only. Been a year and I suspect that at the rate it wears I probably only have another 50 or so years left on the "rough" barrel. Probably 100 years on the polish barrel. Yes there is a little pitting, but it is so minor it is hardly noticeable. I also use sooo much less grit than is recommended. While I still haven't put in an order for an extra barrel, I do think this is the right approach with any of the vibratory units. Getting a single barrel scoured out well enough to insure there's no grit contamination is no small job and even then it would be quite simple to miss a spot and allow for a tumbling disaster. That being said, the dedicated barrel method is best. No offence to anyone but I'd really like to hear from someone that's put 'years' on using a barrel for 120/220 just to hear their opinion and experiences. Mark |
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rocknewb101
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since October 2022
Posts: 1,368
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Post by rocknewb101 on Feb 21, 2024 15:15:01 GMT -5
As someone who has used both machines I'll die saying the mini is far superior to not only use and run correctly, but also with results. I had nothing but trouble with my lot-o from a dead motor after a couple months of use to improperly placed dowel rod. They did send a new motor, so I'll give them that, but I was never able to get it to roll properly - I tried all kinds of things, no luck. I've only had the mini for about 6 months or so...but I do all but stage 1 in it with zero issues. My barrel is as intact now as it was day one. Ask me again in 2 years...who knows, but I don't see any issue at all - I'm running a stage 2 batch right now. With all of this being said - I'm one person with one experience. This was my experience and may not be yours. I think you should use whichever machine you prefer and take the rest of this with a grain of salt. Happy Tumbling!! Great post rocknewb101 ! While I'm still trying to decide which one I like better, there are pro's & con's to both IMHO. When I hit 6 months of use with each I ( might) have enough experience with both to say something as definitive. One of my initial concerns was the advice I received about the vulnerability of the MT-4 barrel. While I haven't actually tested out the barrel with anything coarser than a 500 yet, I have full intentions of running the 120/220 in the MT-4 just like I do with the Lot-O. That's only fair right? I hope it helps! There are definitely pros and cons. I think even after a few uses of each you'll have a good sense of what you like/don't like. One thing I do want to do, but have just been putting it off is to get a polish only barrel for the mini. I had two barrels with the lot-o for that reason. So far it's not affecting my results, but who knows into the future. Only fair for sure! How else would you know otherwise  . |
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Post by rmf on Feb 21, 2024 19:41:01 GMT -5
I would argue that it is not a grit limitation but a coarse rock limitation. I have a couple of mini sonics from the Geosonic days so they are old. the issue for coarse grit when the rocks are freshly broken they do not tumble well. this is because the angular stones do not easily slip by one another. I would recommend for most cases to rough tumble coarse in a rotary until the stones are rounded to you liking and then 220 to polish in the mini sonic.
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zebra61
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2024
Posts: 161
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Post by zebra61 on Feb 22, 2024 9:12:52 GMT -5
I would argue that it is not a grit limitation but a coarse rock limitation. I have a couple of mini sonics from the Geosonic days so they are old. the issue for coarse grit when the rocks are freshly broken they do not tumble well. this is because the angular stones do not easily slip by one another. I would recommend for most cases to rough tumble coarse in a rotary until the stones are rounded to you liking and then 220 to polish in the mini sonic. That's good advice & observations rmf. Would you consider rocks that are fresh out of the 60/90 stage and going into the 120/220 stage to be too coarse for the vibe? Honestly I've been running my 120/220 stage in my Lot-O on a regular basis. Now that I have a little more rotary capacity maybe I should do that stage in a rotary as well? Leave the vibes for 500 and finer grits/polishes? I'm always feeling like I'm doing something wrong. Mark |
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Post by rmf on Feb 23, 2024 9:07:51 GMT -5
I would argue that it is not a grit limitation but a coarse rock limitation. I have a couple of mini sonics from the Geosonic days so they are old. the issue for coarse grit when the rocks are freshly broken they do not tumble well. this is because the angular stones do not easily slip by one another. I would recommend for most cases to rough tumble coarse in a rotary until the stones are rounded to you liking and then 220 to polish in the mini sonic. That's good advice & observations rmf . Would you consider rocks that are fresh out of the 60/90 stage and going into the 120/220 stage to be too coarse for the vibe? Honestly I've been running my 120/220 stage in my Lot-O on a regular basis. Now that I have a little more rotary capacity maybe I should do that stage in a rotary as well? Leave the vibes for 500 and finer grits/polishes? I'm always feeling like I'm doing something wrong. Mark What I like for coarse is 46/70 split. very coarse and aggressive then move to 220 I have also used 120/220 split when I need to. If you get them rounded to your liking in coarse what ever grit. It is OK to go to the next grit in the mini-sonic. Once the freshly crushed rocks are rough ground in a rotary tumbler (coarse grit), the sharp corners can't interlock and slow the tumbling action. the tumbling action on the mini-sonic should be optimal with the medium grit does not grind the tub like the coarse grit does so it is a win win |
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zebra61
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since January 2024
Posts: 161
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Post by zebra61 on Mar 4, 2024 17:19:45 GMT -5
I made Cement - What's your Superpower?
Over the past couple of weeks I've been running batches through my Lot-O with 220 & 500. Then I move the batch over to the Mini Sonic for 1200>TXP>#61 Rapid Polish. It's putting a good shine on things but last night I did a late evening check before heading to bed. The batch in the Mini was locked up tight and fairly dry (not completely). That was a first and a little annoying. It was in the second round of polish (1200). After a good soaking and 60 minutes of burnishing I put it all back together to let it run overnight.
Then I observed it for a bit and noted that my load had momentary pauses or temporary lockups. There's a 10 second video of the pause but after attempting to upload it twice the system notified me that the video is too large. Anyone got a fix for that? So I pulled out a few of the larger rocks and let it run. This morning it was pretty dry so an additional 4-5 sprays of water and I left for work. It's still running now.
I've pulled a few batches out of the Mini and noticed that they're quite warm. (I'll take a temp next time I notice that) So I'm wondering if my batch was too warm, too dry, too full, too neglected. I know for sure that it was too solid. What should I be looking for? I'm open to some suggestions, verbal beat-downs or anything that might help me understand my errors.
Thanks,
Mark
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rockbrain
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2022
Posts: 3,171
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Post by rockbrain on Mar 4, 2024 19:48:40 GMT -5
Every time mine has locked up it's been because of too large of rocks. I regularly tumble too large of rocks anyway. They can get really tight when the lock up but usually a firm smack up side the barrel will get things moving again.
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I'm not going to acquire a microscope. That's where I draw the line. (Although my line drawing has been kind of poor lately)
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