tribeunited
fully equipped rock polisher
Not all materials look exactly the same. But all exact materials are exactly the same.
Member since May 2024
Posts: 1,910
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Post by tribeunited on Jun 3, 2024 18:22:23 GMT -5
I have a question about Bumblebee Jasper. Someone recently informed me that Bumblebee Jasper is toxic. Do people still work with it, despite the toxicity? Is it legal to sell it? Right now I have all of it stored separately in a sealed container. Is that a safe way to store it, or are there any other precautions to take with it? Ok, that was more than one question. I appreciate the information
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Post by vegasjames on Jun 3, 2024 18:52:39 GMT -5
Bumblebee jasper is not even a jasper, it is a calcite.
It does contain arsenic compounds, which are a cumulative poison. So occasional exposure to small amounts is not going to harm someone or kill them. Even non-organic apples in the store use arsenic compounds as a preservative.
In short, the danger is really over hyped unless you are working a lot of it without protection such as a face mask.
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tribeunited
fully equipped rock polisher
Not all materials look exactly the same. But all exact materials are exactly the same.
Member since May 2024
Posts: 1,910
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Post by tribeunited on Jun 3, 2024 19:01:11 GMT -5
Bumblebee jasper is not even a jasper, it is a calcite. It does contain arsenic compounds, which are a cumulative poison. So occasional exposure to small amounts is not going to harm someone or kill them. Even non-organic apples in the store use arsenic compounds as a preservative. In short, the danger is really over hyped unless you are working a lot of it without protection such as a face mask. Thank you vegasjames. I am probably over thinking it then. I'll sleep a little easier.
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Post by rockjunquie on Jun 3, 2024 20:02:49 GMT -5
Casual handling of it isn't a problem, but certainly wear the proper protection when grinding.
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Post by jasoninsd on Jun 8, 2024 23:45:43 GMT -5
Casual handling of it isn't a problem, but certainly wear the proper protection when grinding.
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tribeunited
fully equipped rock polisher
Not all materials look exactly the same. But all exact materials are exactly the same.
Member since May 2024
Posts: 1,910
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Post by tribeunited on Jun 11, 2024 18:34:29 GMT -5
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docharber
has rocks in the head
Member since October 2008
Posts: 716
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Post by docharber on Jun 25, 2024 17:03:14 GMT -5
Yeah, the reds and oranges and yellows are from arsenic sulfides. I, for one, won't mess with it. Remember that the runoff from cutting is also toxic. I don't know how to dispose of it properly. I'm unaware of any arsenicals used in food preservation but arsenicals have a history of widespread use as herbicides and particularly in the production of cotton. Arsenic's association with mainly cutaneous squamous carcinoma, among other cancers, is long established. Long-term chronic exposure is a scary proposition. So, I leave the bumblebee at the show. And throw out some apples. A word of caution- "organic" produce has not, in general, been shown to offer any particular health advantages and costs several times more. A friend and former patient of mine (I'm a retired doctor) had a garden and sold produce to a local Fresh Market. The only thing they asked him about in regard to this "organic" produce was what fertilizer he used. Nothing about pesticides or whether the garden was planted over a toxic waste dump or on land that might be contaminated from prior activities. So, let the buyer beware.
Mark H.
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Post by vegasjames on Jun 25, 2024 18:03:56 GMT -5
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titaniumkid
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2023
Posts: 482
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Post by titaniumkid on Jun 25, 2024 18:36:48 GMT -5
Yeah, the reds and oranges and yellows are from arsenic sulfides. I, for one, won't mess with it. Remember that the runoff from cutting is also toxic. I don't know how to dispose of it properly. I'm unaware of any arsenicals used in food preservation but arsenicals have a history of widespread use as herbicides and particularly in the production of cotton. Arsenic's association with mainly cutaneous squamous carcinoma, among other cancers, is long established. Long-term chronic exposure is a scary proposition. So, I leave the bumblebee at the show. And throw out some apples. A word of caution- "organic" produce has not, in general, been shown to offer any particular health advantages and costs several times more. A friend and former patient of mine (I'm a retired doctor) had a garden and sold produce to a local Fresh Market. The only thing they asked him about in regard to this "organic" produce was what fertilizer he used. Nothing about pesticides or whether the garden was planted over a toxic waste dump or on land that might be contaminated from prior activities. So, let the buyer beware. Mark H. Thanks for pointing out runoff (and waste) from cutting can be toxic, and proper disposal is an issue people may not consider. Regarding "organic", isn't there a regulatory body in the USA used to certify organic products to ensure greenwashing or "healthwashing" (not sure if that's a word) doesn't occur? For example, we have NASAA in Aus, and for a product to be certified there are a lot of regulatory requirements it has to undergo, including testing, restrictions on what compounds can be used in production, and even buffer zones around farms to reduce contamination from spray drift. Increased organic produce costs come from the extra certification and testing required to weed out people being dodgy, plus the fact it is cheaper and easier to produce the same food using synthetic chemicals. But you're right about buyer beware. Integrity and greater social responsibility take a hit just so someone can make a quick dollar, and people don't realise they need to research what they buy. They trust the seller. They trust governing bodies will step in if there is something amiss. It's wrong and sad. The world is a depressing place. Assuming a person eats actual "organic produce", not mislabelled food, there can be health benefits. For example, studies have shown that a single week of eating organic reduces organophosphate concentrations in urine (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S001393511400067X) and 24 weeks results in lower pyrethroid biomarkers in pregnant women (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160412019306853). Sure, it's not arsenic, but neither insecticide classes are exactly good for the human body.
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Post by vegasjames on Jun 25, 2024 21:12:10 GMT -5
Yeah, the reds and oranges and yellows are from arsenic sulfides. I, for one, won't mess with it. Remember that the runoff from cutting is also toxic. I don't know how to dispose of it properly. I'm unaware of any arsenicals used in food preservation but arsenicals have a history of widespread use as herbicides and particularly in the production of cotton. Arsenic's association with mainly cutaneous squamous carcinoma, among other cancers, is long established. Long-term chronic exposure is a scary proposition. So, I leave the bumblebee at the show. And throw out some apples. A word of caution- "organic" produce has not, in general, been shown to offer any particular health advantages and costs several times more. A friend and former patient of mine (I'm a retired doctor) had a garden and sold produce to a local Fresh Market. The only thing they asked him about in regard to this "organic" produce was what fertilizer he used. Nothing about pesticides or whether the garden was planted over a toxic waste dump or on land that might be contaminated from prior activities. So, let the buyer beware. Mark H. Thanks for pointing out runoff (and waste) from cutting can be toxic, and proper disposal is an issue people may not consider. Regarding "organic", isn't there a regulatory body in the USA used to certify organic products to ensure greenwashing or "healthwashing" (not sure if that's a word) doesn't occur? For example, we have NASAA in Aus, and for a product to be certified there are a lot of regulatory requirements it has to undergo, including testing, restrictions on what compounds can be used in production, and even buffer zones around farms to reduce contamination from spray drift. Increased organic produce costs come from the extra certification and testing required to weed out people being dodgy, plus the fact it is cheaper and easier to produce the same food using synthetic chemicals. But you're right about buyer beware. Integrity and greater social responsibility take a hit just so someone can make a quick dollar, and people don't realise they need to research what they buy. They trust the seller. They trust governing bodies will step in if there is something amiss. It's wrong and sad. The world is a depressing place. Assuming a person eats actual "organic produce", not mislabelled food, there can be health benefits. For example, studies have shown that a single week of eating organic reduces organophosphate concentrations in urine (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S001393511400067X) and 24 weeks results in lower pyrethroid biomarkers in pregnant women (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160412019306853). Sure, it's not arsenic, but neither insecticide classes are exactly good for the human body. To be considered organically grown here in the U.S. it has to grown without herbicides and pesticides for something like 10 years. Many of the toxic herbicides and pesticides though can remain intact in soil for 15 to 100 years, and irrigation water is often contaminated. Then there is the issue if drift from sprays from non-organic farms. So,organic produce is not as clean as most people think.
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Post by rockjunquie on Jun 25, 2024 21:14:17 GMT -5
So, I leave the bumblebee at the show. Exactly. I don't really know, as well as I'd like to, about the hazards of cutting, grinding and polishing bumblebee, so I just don't do it. No biggie. If I need a cab, I'll buy one. Same with cinnabar (Mercury). I just choose not to deal with them. They may be safe or there may be safe ways to handle them- I just don't want to.
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Post by vegasjames on Jun 25, 2024 21:23:15 GMT -5
So, I leave the bumblebee at the show. Exactly. I don't really know, as well as I'd like to, about the hazards of cutting, grinding and polishing bumblebee, so I just don't do it. No biggie. If I need a cab, I'll buy one. Same with cinnabar (Mercury). I just choose not to deal with them. They may be safe or there may be safe ways to handle them- I just don't want to. Cinnabar is not all that dangerous either. It is even used in Chinese medicine. Cinnabar is not very well absorbed, and not elemental mercury or methyl mercury, which are the real dangerous forms.
Arsenic compounds from Bumblebee "jasper" pose some risk if inhaled, but arsenic is easily displaced from the body from things like calcium. And when ingested it is often bound from things like phytates, alginates and pectins, which is why it is such a slow cumulative poison.
I was dealing with someone who was being poisoned with arsenic many years ago. So, I had done a lot of research on arsenic.
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titaniumkid
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2023
Posts: 482
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Post by titaniumkid on Jun 25, 2024 23:27:31 GMT -5
Thanks for pointing out runoff (and waste) from cutting can be toxic, and proper disposal is an issue people may not consider. Regarding "organic", isn't there a regulatory body in the USA used to certify organic products to ensure greenwashing or "healthwashing" (not sure if that's a word) doesn't occur? For example, we have NASAA in Aus, and for a product to be certified there are a lot of regulatory requirements it has to undergo, including testing, restrictions on what compounds can be used in production, and even buffer zones around farms to reduce contamination from spray drift. Increased organic produce costs come from the extra certification and testing required to weed out people being dodgy, plus the fact it is cheaper and easier to produce the same food using synthetic chemicals. But you're right about buyer beware. Integrity and greater social responsibility take a hit just so someone can make a quick dollar, and people don't realise they need to research what they buy. They trust the seller. They trust governing bodies will step in if there is something amiss. It's wrong and sad. The world is a depressing place. Assuming a person eats actual "organic produce", not mislabelled food, there can be health benefits. For example, studies have shown that a single week of eating organic reduces organophosphate concentrations in urine (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S001393511400067X) and 24 weeks results in lower pyrethroid biomarkers in pregnant women (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160412019306853). Sure, it's not arsenic, but neither insecticide classes are exactly good for the human body. To be considered organically grown here in the U.S. it has to grown without herbicides and pesticides for something like 10 years. Many of the toxic herbicides and pesticides though can remain intact in soil for 15 to 100 years, and irrigation water is often contaminated. Then there is the issue if drift from sprays from non-organic farms. So,organic produce is not as clean as most people think. Yeah, it's not clean. But it should be "cleaner" (in the sense that they should have lower concentrations of registered, current use pesticides as these should not be directly applied). As for legacy chemicals in pesticides, fertilisers, etc., not only will they haunt us for decades to come, but we continue to manufacture and use other compounds that will stick around and cause issues for years. It's not just agricultural land or former industrial sites that are contaminated. Our very bodies are repositories for the ways the world was poisoned by us and we know better, have the means to do better, but because a few people somewhere are making money from it, we will continue to hurt ourselves in new and varied ways. Anthropogenic pollution is ubiquitous. Even ice cores from untouched parts of Antarctica contain a neat history of humanity's use of chemicals, amped up big time since the industrial revolution. It's like the more we try to "make things better", the more problems we create. Depressing.
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Post by vegasjames on Jun 26, 2024 0:46:10 GMT -5
To be considered organically grown here in the U.S. it has to grown without herbicides and pesticides for something like 10 years. Many of the toxic herbicides and pesticides though can remain intact in soil for 15 to 100 years, and irrigation water is often contaminated. Then there is the issue if drift from sprays from non-organic farms. So,organic produce is not as clean as most people think. Yeah, it's not clean. But it should be "cleaner" (in the sense that they should have lower concentrations of registered, current use pesticides as these should not be directly applied). As for legacy chemicals in pesticides, fertilisers, etc., not only will they haunt us for decades to come, but we continue to manufacture and use other compounds that will stick around and cause issues for years. It's not just agricultural land or former industrial sites that are contaminated. Our very bodies are repositories for the ways the world was poisoned by us and we know better, have the means to do better, but because a few people somewhere are making money from it, we will continue to hurt ourselves in new and varied ways. Anthropogenic pollution is ubiquitous. Even ice cores from untouched parts of Antarctica contain a neat history of humanity's use of chemicals, amped up big time since the industrial revolution. It's like the more we try to "make things better", the more problems we create. Depressing. One simple thing people ca do is to get an inexpensive ozonating water purification unit. Ozone destroys herbicides and pesticides.
Ozone also destroys the bacteria, and fungi that contribute to spoilage. And destroys the ethylene gas that speeds ripening.
I explained this to the co-op in Reno, and loaned them my large ozone unit. They made two bags of organic produce and ozonated one and the other was a control. The ozonated bag of produce lasted 3 weeks longer than the control bag.
Just rinse the produce and put in a plastic bag and blow the ozone in to the bag for about 10 minutes. Stronger unit will take less time, bit the cheap ozonators, 10 minutes should do.
Meat is also aged with ozone. The meat is held in lockers that are filed with ozone. The ozone destroys the bacteria that can cause food poisoning, but not the enzymes. Therefore, the enzymes can still tenderize the meat without excess bacteria growth that would spoil the meat and make people sick.
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Post by parfive on Jun 26, 2024 9:59:25 GMT -5
As for legacy chemicals in pesticides, fertilisers, etc., not only will they haunt us for decades to come, but we continue to manufacture and use other compounds that will stick around and cause issues for years. It's not just agricultural land or former industrial sites that are contaminated. Our very bodies are repositories for the ways the world was poisoned by us and we know better, have the means to do better, but because a few people somewhere are making money from it, we will continue to hurt ourselves in new and varied ways. Anthropogenic pollution is ubiquitous. Even ice cores from untouched parts of Antarctica contain a neat history of humanity's use of chemicals, amped up big time since the industrial revolution. It's like the more we try to "make things better", the more problems we create. Depressing. Now that it’s in our blood and tissue, it’s hard to see how plastic and its associated chemicals don’t eventually “mess up” the ol' genome. Serves us right.
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titaniumkid
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2023
Posts: 482
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Post by titaniumkid on Jun 26, 2024 18:40:08 GMT -5
As for legacy chemicals in pesticides, fertilisers, etc., not only will they haunt us for decades to come, but we continue to manufacture and use other compounds that will stick around and cause issues for years. It's not just agricultural land or former industrial sites that are contaminated. Our very bodies are repositories for the ways the world was poisoned by us and we know better, have the means to do better, but because a few people somewhere are making money from it, we will continue to hurt ourselves in new and varied ways. Anthropogenic pollution is ubiquitous. Even ice cores from untouched parts of Antarctica contain a neat history of humanity's use of chemicals, amped up big time since the industrial revolution. It's like the more we try to "make things better", the more problems we create. Depressing. Now that it’s in our blood and tissue, it’s hard to see how plastic and its associated chemicals don’t eventually “mess up” the ol' genome. Serves us right. It's a cute story of justice on a geological time scale, as the ancient forests and wetlands dug up for oil and made into plastics avenge their descendent habitats we destroy today.
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Post by rmf on Jun 27, 2024 9:33:53 GMT -5
Bumblebee jasper is not even a jasper, it is a calcite. It does contain arsenic compounds, which are a cumulative poison. So occasional exposure to small amounts is not going to harm someone or kill them. Even non-organic apples in the store use arsenic compounds as a preservative. In short, the danger is really over hyped unless you are working a lot of it without protection such as a face mask. vegasjames Thanks for that info. I saw some and did not purchase the slabs. I did not suspect it was calcite. You have saved me some money. As far as I am concerned it is fraud when they try to sell calcite as agate/jasper
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Post by vegasjames on Jun 27, 2024 10:05:52 GMT -5
Bumblebee jasper is not even a jasper, it is a calcite. It does contain arsenic compounds, which are a cumulative poison. So occasional exposure to small amounts is not going to harm someone or kill them. Even non-organic apples in the store use arsenic compounds as a preservative. In short, the danger is really over hyped unless you are working a lot of it without protection such as a face mask. vegasjames Thanks for that info. I saw some and did not purchase the slabs. I did not suspect it was calcite. You have saved me some money. As far as I am concerned it is fraud when they try to sell calcite as agate/jasper
Wrote this on the topic before:
A lot of stones commonly get misidentified.
Satin spar gets called "selenite". Selenite is the rarer, clear and non-fibrous version of gypsum.
Rainforest jasper is actually a rhyolite.
Bumblebee jasper is actually a calcite.
Green beryl often gets incorrectly called emerald, when in order to be called emerald it has to be a darker green.
Any chalcedony with any clarity people call "agate", which is incorrect. Agates by definition are chalcedonies with some clarity that also have alternating colored curved bands of color.
My biggest pet peeve is people calling any copper containing mineral "chrysocolla". I have even seen malachite and turquoise referred to as "chrysocolla". Chrysocolla is actually pretty rare, and too soft to use in jewelry without stabilization. As often as we hear people calling copper ores "chrysocolla", we would think that it is so common that we should be tripping over it with every step.
Making things more confusing is the term "silicated chrysocolla", which is not chrysocolla at all, but rather a chalcedony stained by copper salts.
If the chalcedony is stained internally with iron it is called “fire agate" even though it is not an agate.
Banded calcite (calcium carbonate) is frequently called "onyx". Actual onyx is a very rare black and white banded, or sometimes pure black chalcedony (cryptocrystalline to microcrystalline quartz).
A lot of what is being sold as "turquoise" on the market was found to actually be planerite.
Peanut obsidian is not obsidian. Peanut obsidian is actually spherulitic periite, with the spherules being radiating feldspar crystals stained by hematite.
The candy rhyolite (sandstorm rhyolite) from the Gemfield area people, including the owners, keep incorrectly calling it chalcedony.
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docharber
has rocks in the head
Member since October 2008
Posts: 716
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Post by docharber on Jul 15, 2024 17:32:43 GMT -5
WOW-great chat session. Yeah, lots of lapidary materials are misleadingly named. Maybe bumblebee should be called dead bee calcite? I think green beryl is colored by iron rather than chromium or vanadium, as is aquamarine, which can be fairly on the green side, that being the distinction between it and emerald. The color of a chromium colored green stone is much more vibrant, even in pale colored stones. Its hard to know what to be scared of in the environment. A friend of mine, a biochemical toxicologist, was working with plasticizers back in the 80's and even then the potential risk to reproductive health was known. Guys, guess what? Your average sperm counts are down almost half from what they were, say, 100 years ago. plasticizers are likely the biggest culprit.
About organophosphates- in small amounts they are fairly harmless to humans with little long term toxicity. Just because the body's burden of a substance is higher than expected doesn't necessarily mean it's doing any harm. I maintain that "organic" produce doesn't actually confer health benefits, but is often fresher and of better quality overall. But in a hungry world where so many face the threat of famine, we must risk use of agricultural chemicals to keep our food supply sufficient, and hopefully preserve our pollinators. The added cost is, I think, more due to preying on a gullible public by greedy growers and distributors. Most organophosphates are rather fragile compounds and break down quickly. I do wonder about compounds used for termite treatment and other long-term applications and the risks these chemicals might pose. Thanks to our Supremely Stupid Court, the agencies which have been established to try to keep us safe are hamstrung (again), with their every decision now being subject to adjudication. I wish our governmental entities had more regulatory authority and more resources to enforce it, but they don't. In some states there may be strict regulation of marketing terms like "organic" and the ever-popular and meaningless word "natural", but in Florida, where i live, probably not. Nobody lets truth stand in the way of profit. I'll shut up now. What am I saying- of course I won't!But first, I'd like to emphasize, like the Psalmist says, that we are "fearfully and wonderfully made". We have wonderful systems in our bodies to deal with environmental hazards, which if not overwhelmed, are very effective in containing or eliminaing them. Your liver can perform over 500 distinct chemical operations. Your DNA can repair itself to an extent from radiation and oxidative damage.
OK, about ozone. It's a potent and rapid microbicide that breaks down quickly. However, the most common, practical, and effective means of preserving produce- particularly apples- is to store them in a low oxygen environment (nitrogen). Ozone can be a very strong respiratory irritant and may cause oxidative damage to lung tissue. It can trigger asthma. I always advised my COPD and asthma patients to avoid ozone type air cleaners. A HEPA filter is much safer, usually cheaper, and just as effective. And, DON'T let anyone sell you a UV sanitizing system (like whole house air cleaners and spa water cleaners that work both by direct UV effect and/or generating ozone. The former will keep one side of your HVAC coil cleaner but that's all. The needed exposure time to sanitize anything with UV is exponentially longer with increasing wavelength. The silly blue light (near-UV) systems out there now are totally useless from a practical standpoint. The air flow is way too fast in an HVAC system to achieve adequate UV exposure, and any produced ozone concentration way too small. Water can be sanitized with UV but only with fairly long exposure of still water. In a spa, look for an electrostatic discharge system that produces way more ozone than the common UV ozone generators and are much more effective in sanitizing a spa. Those silver ion systems are also helpful and keep your parties from being crashed by werewolves.
I'm done now.
Mark H.
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rockbrain
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2022
Posts: 3,095
Member is Online
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Post by rockbrain on Jul 15, 2024 18:44:31 GMT -5
Lots of things are misnamed. Fish for instance. Tilapia is not a species of fish. It's a lot of similar species grouped together. They are actually the African Cichlids that are popular with many aquarium folks. My favorite is Orange Roughy. It used to be considered a trash fish but as fishing regulations tightened up it started getting used for consumption. They decided at that point to change the name. No one wanted to eat slime heads! Tropical hardwoods are just as bad. Loads of mahogany and ebony that are being sold that are neither and there are some names that are a bunch of different species grouped together just like Tilapia.
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