rockwizz
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since May 2007
Posts: 971
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Post by rockwizz on Nov 20, 2007 23:48:51 GMT -5
Hello everyone -- since I started with tumbling, I have only been able to get a few rocks that I consider worthy of being called perfect...not!! Anyhow...I think there are a lot of folks that could really help us newbies by posting pictures of what they consider their best batch and how they arrived there. One thing is certain...the traditional method of 1 week for each of 4 steps is worthless...IT DOES NOT WORK PERIOD. I'm currently working on my 4th batch with the following: Lortone QT-NR (with a 12lb. Barrell) new motor and reconstructed gears, shafts, and bearings) the tumbler is fast and is running great. 3 weeks in step 1 recharging every week (46/70 grit) 1 week of 1000 1 week of Polish (TO) For now...with the traditional method..this is as good as gets, here are the pictures:
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,487
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Post by Sabre52 on Nov 21, 2007 1:08:51 GMT -5
Beautiful stones! The search for the perfect formula is quite elusive because in actuality, it changes for each type of stone you do. Then there's the roughness factor where irregular or sharply broken material just flat takes longer to round off satisfactorily. I'm currently running some sharply broken stuff and am into my third week in coarse with weekly recharges. Looking at at least five recharges before these are done. My basic formula is:
Course 60/90 till rounded with weekly recharges..generally three to six weeks or more depending on if I'm using the slower Lortone or the fast Ball Mill Tumbler. 120/220 for 2 weeks tripoli 15 days AO polish for 15 days minimum then burnish one day
As I do this more and more, I've come to realize the single, most important step is the coarse grind. Well rounded off, smoothly ground stones simply make for a better final product. I sort each coarse ground lot to remove those that are ready for fine grind and either move them forward, discard ( I discard more than a few. No sense wasting grit and time on junkers)) or if they look like they simply need more work, kick them to the next coarse cycle. After a good coarse grind, the rest is straight forward and pretty easy!....Mel
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fossilbrain
spending too much on rocks
Cookie Monster agate
Member since October 2007
Posts: 360
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Post by fossilbrain on Nov 21, 2007 1:19:33 GMT -5
Them darn stones thar are right purdy, tho, partner. Why the next recipe with such a jump in mesh between 46/70 and 1000? I thought maybe you'd just leave it (without recharge) for at least the latter two of the first weeks to let the grit break down smaller if that's what you have on hand, but I'm a noob at tumbling. Looking forward to seeing your next batch!
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rollingstone
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since July 2009
Posts: 236
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Post by rollingstone on Nov 21, 2007 2:59:45 GMT -5
Ozzman, I don't know if there is such a thing as a perfect batch, because no matter how well they turn out you will probably always strive to do even better next time. The most important ingredient in a successful tumble costs nothing but is very hard to come by - patience! Without patience, all the experience in the world won't help you achieve a good tumble. Easier said then done, I know. I see you have some carnelian in your tumble, so here's how I handle that one.... Take some bad-ass gnarly carnelian: Break it into bite-sized chunks (shown wet): Tumble it until it shines (shown dry): Mel has covered most of the details in his post above. Since this carnelian was so rough to start with, I think I used about 8 to 12 weekly recharges in coarse grind until it was smoothed out properly. Some stuff takes less time - amethyst probably takes me 4-6 weeks in coarse, rounded river quartzite pebbles only 1-2 weeks in coarse. As Mel stated, coarse grind is the most important stage. ANY blemish or rough spot or pit that remains after coarse grind will still remain after the polish stage, and will be much more noticeable in the polished stone because it is seen against a nice shiny background. My recipe is a bit different than Mel's, but that's not to say it is any better. Many different recipes will give good results, you will have to play around with things a bit to find your own favorite recipe. Mine is: 60/90 with weekly cleanings and recharges until nicely shaped 120/220 for 7 days (usually starting to add plastic pellets at this stage) 500F silicon carbide for 10 days Aluminum oxide polish for anywhere up to 3 weeks I see you used 46/70 grit for coarse grind. That is recommended for larger tumblers, say 6 lb barrels and larger. In smaller tumblers it doesn't mix with the rocks well, so you are better with 60/90 (I don't know the size of your tumbler). Also, you seem to have entirely skipped fine grind (120/220) and pre-polish stages (500F, or in Mel's case Tripoli), and went directly to 1000 grit (which is usually considered the 4th stage for folks who like to use a 5-stage tumble). That can be done, but it is really quite an advanced tumbling procedure and I wouldn't recommend trying it until you have a lot of experience. James once published an excellent step-by-step guide, which I think can still be found in the lapidary tips section. It covers many techniques in detail, and I adopted some of them myself and think they really helped out with my tumbles - it's well worth a read! Happy tumbling, -Don [glow=red,2,300]ADDED NOTE:[/glow]Hi again, I see that some time ago you found James post about advanced techniques for a high-gloss shine, and that is where you got the direct from coarse grind to 1000 grit recipe. As James states, that is an advanced technique. The post I was referring to is a much earlier post of his on the basics of tumbling, here's the link: forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/index.cgi?board=tips&action=display&thread=1105871635-Don
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Post by Michael John on Nov 21, 2007 4:56:42 GMT -5
Do you guys just throw chunks in there with sharp edges ... freshly broken ... or do you trim the sharp edges down with a saw before they go in the tumbler? Four to six weeks in the rough stage seems like a real long time.
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Post by larrywyland3 on Nov 21, 2007 8:15:55 GMT -5
Great looking batches. I agree the one week thing just doesn't work.
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rollingstone
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since July 2009
Posts: 236
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Post by rollingstone on Nov 21, 2007 12:21:22 GMT -5
Do you guys just throw chunks in there with sharp edges ... freshly broken ... or do you trim the sharp edges down with a saw before they go in the tumbler? Four to six weeks in the rough stage seems like a real long time. I use freshly broken rough, exactly as shown in the picture above. Trimming would definitely speed up the coarse grind but then you are spending a lot of time preparing rough, and in my case I don't have a saw. Some people do pre-shape - Bikerrandy cranks out pre-shaped pendants by the bucketfull, and I think his pre-shapes only take about a week in coarse grind. -Don
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Post by midnightrocksi3 on Nov 21, 2007 12:31:47 GMT -5
OOoooo I like this post.. lots of good info I could use.. I wasn't thinking about recharging grit every week.. or even going longer (since I'm not all that patient as it is) lol.. But great looking batch, But I'm curious as to those carnelians where do you get those kinda rocks? those are awesome.. even in the rough stage they look insane... but for sure this post was packed filled full of useful info..
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,487
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Post by Sabre52 on Nov 21, 2007 12:50:45 GMT -5
Midnight: Yup, you need those recharges because the grit breaks down in a week and is no longer removing material at the wanted rate. I usually start with sharply broken rock too but my higher speed ( 65rpm) rotary, takes sharp edges off real fast. That carnelian is most likely out of the Pacific Northwest and I think I saw a box up for sale on E-Bay yesterday. It is ultra beautiful stuff but like Don says, it takes a long time in coarse grind as it's sharp and hard....Mel
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Post by midnightrocksi3 on Nov 21, 2007 13:05:47 GMT -5
Oh right on! I'd like to get ahold of some of that .. so pretty after the shine.. wow.. and thanks for the info sabre.. will make sure to remember that.. *smiles*
Roxy
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rollingstone
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since July 2009
Posts: 236
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Post by rollingstone on Nov 21, 2007 14:58:55 GMT -5
Good ID as usual, Mel.... that carnelian came from Oregon. -Don
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one80mike
freely admits to licking rocks
@(-_-)@ Princess Leia!
Member since February 2007
Posts: 908
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Post by one80mike on Nov 21, 2007 19:46:31 GMT -5
I feel a bit sheepish putting in my 2 cents worth. I have no where near the talent or experience of some of the people on the board but here's what I do anyway...for what it's worth. I am running 2 Lortone 33b's, that's a total of 4 3lb barrels running at all time. and Basically all I tumble at the moment is pet wood, jasper, agate and carnelian. I run my rocks in course grit for as long as it takes. I was using 80 grit and finding that it was all gone in 5 days, so I am experimenting with 46 grit at the moment. I am using less of it and cleaning out the barrels every 7-10 days. Some rocks can run in course for 8-10 weeks, or even longer. I do pre-shape some of my rocks with my saw. If I find a troublesome bump or pit on a rock during teh course stage, I will pull in out and run it on my grinder for a few seconds and do what may take the tumbler another 4 or 5 weeks. Each time I clear out the barrel, any that are ready are put aside and new rough is added along with new filler gravel. I always have at least 2 barrels running course. Stage 2 for me is 220 grit. I let them run for 12-14 days with plastic pellets. Stage 3 is 600 grit. Again 12-14 days (with pellets) followed by 24 hours in a borax wash. Stage 4 is polish. Either tin or aluminum oxide (I can't remember which it is) for 14 days. I reuse keep the polish, water and pellet mix and reuse it again and again adding a teaspoon of fresh polish every few barrels. (after 9 months, it's starting to stink a bit so it might be time to ditch it and start fresh again) I do the same for my preform shapes except I skip the course stage and cut slabs and grind shapes instead. Here's some of my results. That's what I do. Have a top day. mike
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Post by bobby1 on Nov 21, 2007 19:58:29 GMT -5
I have my lazy man's two step tumble method. I've been using it for about 25 years so far. I generally run a 10lb unit concurrent with a 40lb unit. I load the 40lb one to within 1" of the top, add 5+lbs of coarse compound (usually 46/70 or 60/90, whichever that I have on hand), add water to cover the rocks, add 1 tsp of liquid dish detergent and let it run for 4+ weeks. The grit constantly breaks down into finer compound until it is almost clay-like in consistency. It also is a rather thick slurry that keeps the stones from smacking into each other. I tumble a mixture of large (4" to 6") to small (1") slabs and rock pieces from 3" to 1". At the end of the approximately 1 month, I dump the contents onto a screen and wash them off with a hose. I put them back into the tumbler, add the contents of the 10lb unit's ground rocks so that the barrel is again within 1 1/2" of the top, add 3 cups of plastic pellets, add a cup of CPP polish, add 1 tsp of dish detergent, add 2 cups of water and run the tumbler for another 4+ weeks. After this I dump the rocks onto a screen and wash them off with a hose. They most often are perfectly polished. I'm ready for the next batch. Bob
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rockwizz
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since May 2007
Posts: 971
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Post by rockwizz on Nov 21, 2007 22:27:00 GMT -5
Hello Everyone --- this is great! I never thought I would get the response I have received so far. Everyone's comments are awesome. I do want to make a point, that this forum came about after looking at James posting about high gloss advanced techniques..
My intention with this forum is to get everyone that has had great results tumbling a batch to post their results, so that all of us newbies can take note..and learn!!
You all are great. And thanks for posting pictures, comments, and instructions. I'm definitely taken notes for my next batch which will hopefully turn out better than my previous 4 batches.
Perhaps in the future we create a forum to exchange stones from our own PERFECT BATCH!!!! any takers?
Ozzy
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rockwizz
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since May 2007
Posts: 971
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Post by rockwizz on Nov 21, 2007 22:32:14 GMT -5
Ozzman, I don't know if there is such a thing as a perfect batch, because no matter how well they turn out you will probably always strive to do even better next time. The most important ingredient in a successful tumble costs nothing but is very hard to come by - patience! Without patience, all the experience in the world won't help you achieve a good tumble. Easier said then done, I know. I see you have some carnelian in your tumble, so here's how I handle that one.... Take some bad-ass gnarly carnelian: Break it into bite-sized chunks (shown wet): Tumble it until it shines (shown dry): Mel has covered most of the details in his post above. Since this carnelian was so rough to start with, I think I used about 8 to 12 weekly recharges in coarse grind until it was smoothed out properly. Some stuff takes less time - amethyst probably takes me 4-6 weeks in coarse, rounded river quartzite pebbles only 1-2 weeks in coarse. As Mel stated, coarse grind is the most important stage. ANY blemish or rough spot or pit that remains after coarse grind will still remain after the polish stage, and will be much more noticeable in the polished stone because it is seen against a nice shiny background. My recipe is a bit different than Mel's, but that's not to say it is any better. Many different recipes will give good results, you will have to play around with things a bit to find your own favorite recipe. Mine is: 60/90 with weekly cleanings and recharges until nicely shaped 120/220 for 7 days (usually starting to add plastic pellets at this stage) 500F silicon carbide for 10 days Aluminum oxide polish for anywhere up to 3 weeks I see you used 46/70 grit for coarse grind. That is recommended for larger tumblers, say 6 lb barrels and larger. In smaller tumblers it doesn't mix with the rocks well, so you are better with 60/90 (I don't know the size of your tumbler). Also, you seem to have entirely skipped fine grind (120/220) and pre-polish stages (500F, or in Mel's case Tripoli), and went directly to 1000 grit (which is usually considered the 4th stage for folks who like to use a 5-stage tumble). That can be done, but it is really quite an advanced tumbling procedure and I wouldn't recommend trying it until you have a lot of experience. James once published an excellent step-by-step guide, which I think can still be found in the lapidary tips section. It covers many techniques in detail, and I adopted some of them myself and think they really helped out with my tumbles - it's well worth a read! Happy tumbling, -Don [glow=red,2,300]ADDED NOTE:[/glow]Hi again, I see that some time ago you found James post about advanced techniques for a high-gloss shine, and that is where you got the direct from coarse grind to 1000 grit recipe. As James states, that is an advanced technique. The post I was referring to is a much earlier post of his on the basics of tumbling, here's the link: forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/index.cgi?board=tips&action=display&thread=1105871635-Don Hey Don I'm using a 12lb. Lortone barrel with a QT12 tumbler...which I was told should handle the 46/70 just fine...I think so far this is working fine, but since I have been using the 4 week deal, I have not been getting the results I've been looking for.
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rockwizz
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since May 2007
Posts: 971
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Post by rockwizz on Nov 21, 2007 22:59:29 GMT -5
Them darn stones thar are right purdy, tho, partner. Why the next recipe with such a jump in mesh between 46/70 and 1000? I thought maybe you'd just leave it (without recharge) for at least the latter two of the first weeks to let the grit break down smaller if that's what you have on hand, but I'm a noob at tumbling. Looking forward to seeing your next batch! they look OK...but not like Jame's pictures (have you seen his post?) I'm trying to get my 7~8lbs of stones out of a 12lb barrell to look the same. We'll keep trying...I have some stones that I could send you, would you like to swap some of my red utah stones? Let me know
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rockwizz
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since May 2007
Posts: 971
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Post by rockwizz on Nov 21, 2007 23:01:48 GMT -5
Ozzman, I don't know if there is such a thing as a perfect batch, because no matter how well they turn out you will probably always strive to do even better next time. The most important ingredient in a successful tumble costs nothing but is very hard to come by - patience! Without patience, all the experience in the world won't help you achieve a good tumble. Easier said then done, I know. I see you have some carnelian in your tumble, so here's how I handle that one.... Take some bad-ass gnarly carnelian: Break it into bite-sized chunks (shown wet): Tumble it until it shines (shown dry): Mel has covered most of the details in his post above. Since this carnelian was so rough to start with, I think I used about 8 to 12 weekly recharges in coarse grind until it was smoothed out properly. Some stuff takes less time - amethyst probably takes me 4-6 weeks in coarse, rounded river quartzite pebbles only 1-2 weeks in coarse. As Mel stated, coarse grind is the most important stage. ANY blemish or rough spot or pit that remains after coarse grind will still remain after the polish stage, and will be much more noticeable in the polished stone because it is seen against a nice shiny background. My recipe is a bit different than Mel's, but that's not to say it is any better. Many different recipes will give good results, you will have to play around with things a bit to find your own favorite recipe. Mine is: 60/90 with weekly cleanings and recharges until nicely shaped 120/220 for 7 days (usually starting to add plastic pellets at this stage) 500F silicon carbide for 10 days Aluminum oxide polish for anywhere up to 3 weeks I see you used 46/70 grit for coarse grind. That is recommended for larger tumblers, say 6 lb barrels and larger. In smaller tumblers it doesn't mix with the rocks well, so you are better with 60/90 (I don't know the size of your tumbler). Also, you seem to have entirely skipped fine grind (120/220) and pre-polish stages (500F, or in Mel's case Tripoli), and went directly to 1000 grit (which is usually considered the 4th stage for folks who like to use a 5-stage tumble). That can be done, but it is really quite an advanced tumbling procedure and I wouldn't recommend trying it until you have a lot of experience. James once published an excellent step-by-step guide, which I think can still be found in the lapidary tips section. It covers many techniques in detail, and I adopted some of them myself and think they really helped out with my tumbles - it's well worth a read! Happy tumbling, -Don [glow=red,2,300]ADDED NOTE:[/glow]Hi again, I see that some time ago you found James post about advanced techniques for a high-gloss shine, and that is where you got the direct from coarse grind to 1000 grit recipe. As James states, that is an advanced technique. The post I was referring to is a much earlier post of his on the basics of tumbling, here's the link: forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/index.cgi?board=tips&action=display&thread=1105871635-Don Rollingstone -- that Carnelian is really pretty. Maybe sometime you would like to swap some? Let me know. Ozzy
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Post by Jack ( Yorkshire) on Nov 22, 2007 4:06:15 GMT -5
Hi Ozzyman, I think your going through tooooooooooooooo fast !! slow down Man these rocks have been around a few million 's of years ! ! As others have pointed out your missing stage 2 the 220 grit stage give them 2 X1week or 2X10 days wash in between and recharge (seeif all the grit has broken down if not reduce the grit) I do 80 grit - 220g -400- 600 1000grit and Tripoly (from 220 in vibe) but have done in rotary, Also 24 hrs wash/Burnishing befor 1000 Your using a big tumbler so you should get a good ( weight )grind with is something I found out when I got my 12lb Lortone barrel after using a 3lb lortone the added weight makes a lot of difference this is my results Dry photo as well !! img.photobucket.com/albums/v357/john-edward/March1st007.jpgJack Yorkshire UK
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rockwizz
freely admits to licking rocks
Member since May 2007
Posts: 971
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Post by rockwizz on Nov 22, 2007 10:28:10 GMT -5
Hi Ozzyman, I think your going through tooooooooooooooo fast !! slow down Man these rocks have been around a few million 's of years ! ! As others have pointed out your missing stage 2 the 220 grit stage give them 2 X1week or 2X10 days wash in between and recharge (seeif all the grit has broken down if not reduce the grit) I do 80 grit - 220g -400- 600 1000grit and Tripoly (from 220 in vibe) but have done in rotary, Also 24 hrs wash/Burnishing befor 1000 Your using a big tumbler so you should get a good ( weight )grind with is something I found out when I got my 12lb Lortone barrel after using a 3lb lortone the added weight makes a lot of difference this is my results Dry photo as well !! img.photobucket.com/albums/v357/john-edward/March1st007.jpgJack Yorkshire UK --Hey James, I could not quite understand what you meant about using the 12lb barrell...what did you mean about the weight grind? does this mean that the size of the barrel helps the grind process, and therefore less time is required? I have a batch I have been tumbling for about 1 month which should be coming out soon. I will post the pictures when they are done...this is what I'm doing: 1 week of 46/70 (shapes looked fine, but some rocks had some cracks) 3 weeks of 120/220 (going on second week) 1 week of 1000 1 week of TO Let me know if you think this will not work.. BTW -- those rocks in the link are great...what are they?
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Post by puppie96 on Nov 22, 2007 11:41:26 GMT -5
He means that the 12 lb. barrels work faster than the smaller ones do because the action is much rougher. Most people's starter tumblers are more on the order of the the 3-lb lortones which work fine, but take longer. With the smaller units most people start with 60/90 grit because the coarser ones like 46/70 are hard to get to break down but with the added weight in the 12 lb tumbler they work fine.
It takes a lot of rock to feed a 12 lb tumbler because of the loss of mass with each grind. If you are only using that size barrel, then you have to keep adding rocks and removing the ones that are ready to move forward to keep the rock level high enough in the barrel. Thus, it could take a really long time to get enough to fill the 12 lb barrel for the next step which could certainly test your patience. Usually I use the big barrel just for coarse grinding and smaller units for subsequent steps. I've got 6-lb barrels that run on the same base as one 12-lb barrel does, also I have 3 lb. barrels. I've got one 6-lb barrel reserved for polish only. Having a polish-only barrel is a good idea too, as you have probably read.
Many of us eventually upgrade to vibe tumblers which are a nice addition. They are awesome for doing the fine grinds and polish on rocks that are already well prepped by coarse grinding in barrels.
Everybody that is telling you that coarse grind is the most important is absolutely right. I've never done anything like 3 weeks in 120-220. I don't see that it would add much to the process since by the time you start them in 120-220 they should already be well shaped and have most of the surface flaws ground off. Once they are done with coarse grinding, the remaining steps shouldn't need to be very long since most of the work is already done.
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