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S&H
Mar 9, 2006 16:18:34 GMT -5
Post by deb193 on Mar 9, 2006 16:18:34 GMT -5
Please don't misunderstand the following comments. I'm trying only to make a small point. ... <snip> ... As long as sellers are not lying about their sell prices or shipping prices, and you have made the choice to bid on their items and have seen their "shipping" charges...I don't get why there are so many comments about "their shipping rates are too high." Don't do business with them. ... <snip> ... Just my 2 cents. If yall think I'm out of line, please tell me so. (I'll pull up my big girl panties and take my medicine!) I would certainly not say that you are out of line, and really appreciate a civil and levelheaded proffer of discussion. Generally I just avoid these conversations because too often a shrill comment along the lines of "If you don't like it don't bid" is made - and not in the calm questioning way you did but in the " F@*K OFF" or " don't let the door hit you ass on the way out" kind of way. To me this suggests a complete disregard for the buyer's perceptions or concerns, in essence treating them as disposable. IN reality this issue is complex, and we life in a world where reasonable buyers and sellers mix with buyers and sellers of the ignorant cretin variety. Market prices increasingly reflect services instead of just goods. Marketplaces are being transformed with many small-scale direct-marketing (i.e., no retail store) transactions supported by lots of information links, feedback info, and photos. How will new norms and standards emerge? The pendulum must swing. I submit buyers and sellers must grouse a bit and things need to get tweaked until the make sense for both buyers and sellers. Along the way, shifty sellers, and whiner buyers will get sorted out. You are asking the right question, but let me rearrange it to make a point: "Given that folks don't have to buy, why is there then so much comment about high S&H?" If we accept for a moment that many of these comments are coming from level-headed folks, even from nice RTH members, what is it about the situation that rubs folks the wrong way? There must be something to the issue, these comments can't all be coming from surly jerks. As a social-scientist I wonder about the psychology of buyers. As an empirical researcher, I want to identify all the relevant features of the marketplace and the transaction that might be in play. I think humans have a basic psychology that responds negatively to too many surprises, or to any feeling of coercion or attenuated choices. We can also ask some other probative questions: - Are the terms really clearly stated just because they appear somewhere in an ebay listing? In other words, when is it fine print? I suggest it does not have to be actively hidden or deceptive to be fine print, but psychologically it becomes fine print whenever it frequently surprises the buyer, keeps the buyer wary, or changes the character of the transaction once it is understood.
Buyers can't search on the total cost. You have to check each listing to make sure that it is really as attractive as you thought when you decided to give the listing a 2nd look. This is shopping. Buyers should have to shop, but their time is valuable too, and tools to easily/accurately see and compare listings are not too much to expect. I recently went back to a seller that sold me a grinder (with FREE SHIPPING) and subsequently gave me a good deal on grinder bits with low S&H ($3 1st class mail). I went a 3rd time to get more bits and I decided to also get a splash guard because he had them for $11.99 and Inland Lapidary who makes them wanted $13.99. But at checkout I see that the extra item goes UPS for $8.50, where the manufacturer would have shipped it for $5.50. I am now paying $3 more to buy form this guy. Yes it was clearly stated, but I relied on my sense of the seller's fees formed during my earlier transactions. I suffered because I let my guard down, and I don't think that is the kind of marketplace we want.
If a supermarket could set their own bagging fee and the fee could vary from aisle to aisle or item to item or time to time, I think the market would be mostly empty. In a way ebay is that market, and each seller is another aisle, and each listing is just another occasion. Even if ebay required separate specification of shipping and handling fees, and allowed searches with limits on these fields as well as location and item cost, it would go a long way to make the market feel less hostile. Heck, if you gave you zip, the ebay search results could display the total cost. Many sites like shopping.com or BizRate.com will display delivered cost if you give your zip - so the technology clearly exists.
- How does the proportion of item cost and S&H in total price affect guarantees and other assurances of satisfaction? Who will spend $4 to return a $3 slab. TO some extent this just means that you need to buy a bunch of slabs. This is why we have seen combined shipping and open boxes become much more common. Three years ago this was seldom mentioned in listings, and I had to email sellers and ask if they combined, and how much savings would it yield. But what if the item was listed at a low low price and there are high (non-refundable) handling fees? Does money back guarantee even mean anything any more?
I bought a little nylon light tent to help me photograph rocks. Online photo stores wanted $40 bucks. Ebay had lots of listings for $0.99 to $15.99 - but the S&H was often as high as $18.00 !!! I would normally walk away from such obvious fee avoidance on principal, but I did want a tent and did not want to pay $40 plus shipping. SO I chose one that was $15.99 with $6.00 S&H. It was the most honest listing I could find. It came with $1.78 first class postage in a 67 cent padded envelope. I could have bought the same tent for $1 with $12 S&H, but if it came torn or defective, the money back guarantee only covered the $1. I you really want to piss someone off, don't withhold something they want, just give it to them broken. I submit that any kind of guarantee that you can't afford to invoke is not a guarantee. When this is compounded by a large proportion of the cost being shifted into non-refundable handling fees, then I think you can see why it is a sore topic for many buyers.
- Will the market/seller really respond to a buyer walking away quietly if there are a host of less concerned (perhaps less savvy) buyers lined up? In other words, can market forces operate if these comments are not made? WOuld the market be better if the feedback system was more like amazon.com where buyers can review the product, the seller, the transaction - or jsut say what/who they recommend instead. On enay everyone goes AAA+++ great ebayer!! because most people are trying to buy positive feedback - or at least don't want to take any chance of the bother of negative feedback. Unfortunately, the result is that these coments are worthless for spotting all but the most blatant of scams.
- Can this really be compared to manufactured goods where the next seller will have the same product? Many rock sellers are competing with dozens or hundreds of others selling the same quality and type of agate, jasper, or whatever. However, the trend toward listing individual pieces and showing photos of exact material, makes many sellers the holders of a temporary monopoly - and the market has always shown a vicious face to monopolies.
If I can invite you to take an imaginary trip into an old vegetable market in a hypothetical village. IF every seller has potatoes, the village women might comment on which was nicest, who had the freshest, who had the cheapest. They might go to th next booth if they thought one guy had too high a price one day, but come back another. But let all but one of the sellers run out of potatoes and then any perception that this seller was charging too much or not being nice enough would likely turn vicious. I admit rocks are not food,and we do not have to buy. But if you are looking for something and you see the perfect thing in just one store, but to buy it you need to become complicit in fee avoidance, you need to take a risk vis-a-vie refund, and you need to keep silent about what you think -- well then you just might have some who both buys and feels angry!
- What should the buyer expect for handling fees, and what if they don't get what they are paying for? For me, $4 is about the upper limit I will consider for a handling fee on a flat rate box. BUT can't I think a $3.90 fee is highish compared to a $0.90 fee? I am very patient with sellers that use actual shipping or just round up to the next dollar. I have even sent $1 or $2 adjustments to such sellers if the package arrives and I see they lost money because it cost more. On the other hand, let me tel a story:
I did just spent $3.90 handling for 20# of rock in a flat rate box, and the seller made so many mistakes he should have paid me money. First he incorrectly invoiced $3 more than stated for S&H. I had to send an email to get that fixed. Then he announced insurance when in the listing it actually said insurance not available. I had to email again to ask if it was USPS (which I might consider) or self-insured to which I almost never agree. Next he wanted $1.50 for the $1.35 USPS insurance, and I said the $3.90 handling was enough to not pay 15 cents extra for the insurance - especially since it was not mentioned in the listing. He went ballistic and claimed I did not want to pay the $3.90, and childishly said if I did not want to pay the $3.90 he would gladly throw the rocks lose into the box and I could receive a pile of junk. - So he is now not only ranting about an issue I never raised, but is threatening to skimp on my service. Next, he wanted a delivery confirmation fee that was not stated in the listing. I opposed this on principal, but gave him half (25 cents) as a compromise because these cheap rocks were taking up way too much of my time. When the box arrived it was packed OK, although a free USPS Priority box and some recycled bubble wrap did not cost him a dime. He even gave me extra plume agate - BUT he completely forgot to put in the 5# lot of picture jasper that was the main reason I was filling up a box at his site. I had to email again (the 4th one now). Because I felt a bit bad for him, since I saw he was going to be out $8 bucks to ship my $4 5lb lot, I offered to send some money for the extra plume and to possibly buy something else form him so we could split the new shipping cost. He replied that he considered us even. I had to email again and threaten to file item not received with PayPal. He finally replied with an apology, admitted he had misread my email, accepted my offer, and explained that his ebay business was overwhelming him and he was making a lot of mistakes. I hope the new box arrives soon. BUT the bottom line is that he was selling good packing and proficient execution of our transaction for $3.90, completely failed to deliver, and there is not a damm thing I can do about it.
I can't really fully develop each of these questions on a discussion board. I will leave that for a marketing researcher doing a masters thesis. I hope they give you new ways to think about the issue you raise. I offer up how I feel and some of the things I have thought about. |
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S&H
Mar 9, 2006 16:32:17 GMT -5
Post by krazydiamond on Mar 9, 2006 16:32:17 GMT -5
interesting points to ponder, Daniel, well written and extremely well thought out.
KD
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S&H
Mar 9, 2006 16:40:34 GMT -5
Post by Cher on Mar 9, 2006 16:40:34 GMT -5
Definitely brings a new perspective to searching for the lowest price.
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earthdog
Cave Dweller 
Don't eat yellow snow
Member since June 2006
Posts: 2,731
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S&H
Mar 9, 2006 17:22:01 GMT -5
Post by earthdog on Mar 9, 2006 17:22:01 GMT -5
Man, that was alot to take in for a truck driver, but I agree with ya.
To many on ebay don't like to give shipping cost, or charge well over the $8.10 for a flat rate box. Like I said before, if, as a seller you want a handling fee just say so, don't think I am a dumbass and don't know what a flat rate box goes for. If I get something good for a good price, I don't mind paying a small handling fee. Just say thats what it's for.
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S&H
Mar 9, 2006 17:55:26 GMT -5
Post by deb193 on Mar 9, 2006 17:55:26 GMT -5
e-dog - It is always nice to find general agreement. I don't mind reasonable fees - but who gets to say what is reasonable.  . I really would like to see more buyer-friendly tools on ebay that should over time tame a lot of the wilder handling practices. Sellers may be pressured to offer the lowest starting price to get eyes on auctions, and this may contribute to inflated handling fees. But if we could search on size of handling fee, past-buyer satisaction with shipping spees, with packing quality, with seller demeanor - well some folks would search on all those things or at least consider them. This would create a force that over time would allow all the hinest sellers to raise their listing price closer to the value of theitem and lower their handling fees. Ebay is just not motivated to lead this process, although they have added S&H as a column in summary displays and as a step in confirming some bids. Later |
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S&H
Mar 9, 2006 17:56:09 GMT -5
Post by pho on Mar 9, 2006 17:56:09 GMT -5
If there is an item that I want real bad, sometimes I don't mind having to fork over a little more money to get it. Some shipping and handling fees are nothing more than a rip off...but if one knows and understands that going in..well..they have no gripe. I have paid outrageous fees for items before..but I realy wanted those items badly and was willing to pay for it. The buyer has no one to blame for paying a stated fee. The buyer always has the option to ask questions before buying...so for me it is a matter of how much are you willing to pay.
Just my 2 cents worth....
Pho
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S&H
Mar 9, 2006 19:46:38 GMT -5
Post by deb193 on Mar 9, 2006 19:46:38 GMT -5
...Some shipping and handling fees are nothing more than a rip off...but if one knows and understands that going in..well..they have no gripe. ... Pho Pho, I know what you mean. It is like the photo-tent I bought. I choose to buy, and still got a great deal - even if I did not like to be doing business with inflated handling terms. Few things are ever completely good or completely bad. I have an outlook like yours. But I am going to pick at your words because I think there is something important here. You are simplifying the matter after I have taken great pains to show it is actually complex. I must equivocate. On the one hand, if you fully knew the terms going in, then that is no basis to complain about completing the transaction. It is not an easy out. - However, the phrase "no room to gripe" is just too broad to be useful in this discussion. The buyer does not in any way lose the freedom to speak out against the practice of high handling, or the trends in the marketplace, or even to cite that particular seller as one they consider to be so high that they only bid when there is no other outlet. They/I could even say that that seller has nice things but the handling is highish. (For that exact remark, I have gotten angry emails from a seller ranting about postal worker's sons needing shoes ... etc.) They can still gripe that the only place to get what they wanted was from folks who operated in a reprehensible manner. Thats plenty of room to gripe, and a lot of folks I've had discussions with thought it just cute to see things in black and white and to denigrate any buyer who wanted to discuss things in-depth like I have. I have also tried to dissect what it means to be clearly stated or to fully know. We life in a world of shades of gray. SO few things are ever so clear-cut. Especially when items dimensions but not weight are given, when 1st class mail and not Priority is being used - well in those cases I may not know just how much handling there was until I see the postage on the package, and see the stolen USPS Priority materials turned inside out or cut-up in my box. |
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S&H
Mar 9, 2006 23:42:18 GMT -5
Post by Toad on Mar 9, 2006 23:42:18 GMT -5
We can over-complicate anything. Sometimes it is just as simple as price of the auction plus stated shipping cost.
Real simple example (non-ebay related). There are 2 gas stations across the street from each other near my house. One is usually cheaper than the other. So I always go to the cheaper station. One day I pull up to the pump, get out of the car, and open the gas tank before I notice that the one which is usually more expensive was actually cheaper.
So I had a few choices - fill-up anyway (it was only 2 cents), drive across the street, or protest the higher gas price at my usual station. I'm cheap, so I went across the street. Simple.
When I shop on ebay, I determine what I'm willing to pay for a certain stone. Say, $5 a pound including shipping. If I could win an auction for 10 pounds of the material at $4 a pound plus $8 for shipping - that comes out to $4.80 per pound. Another 10 pound auction could be won for $2 a pound plus $25 for shipping - comes out to $4.50 per pound.
All I care about is the cost to me. It doesn't matter that in the 2nd auction the shipping cost more than the rocks - the price to me was cheaper. I don't care how the sellers make their money as long as I got the material for the cheapest I could.
Philosophizing about shades of gray, simplifying, complexity, dissecting meaning, sociology, psychology, coercion, equivocating, and etc... seems a great waste of time. You state that we live in a world that is shades of gray and think it trite when someone thinks in black and white. Yet you take a stand, draw a line, or whatever you want to call it - on what you think is a reasonable shipping fee. When you make your point so clearly and firmly, you are no longer operating in gray - you just made a black and white determination.
Your arguement defeats itself.
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S&H
Mar 10, 2006 0:12:27 GMT -5
Post by akansan on Mar 10, 2006 0:12:27 GMT -5
There is a difference between adding a handling fee to an item and squirrely business practices. When a seller changes the shipping cost, adds additional fees, or forgets to ship merchandise, that's just bad business. And unfortunately, there is no way to warn ebayers of this bad business except through the feedback system. Offbeat mentioned that sellers are holding bidders hostage for good feedback. Ebay helps the sellers in this regard by discouraging the use of neutral and negative feedback. I recently tried to leave a neutral - I liked the product, just not the service - and was warned by ebay that I was about to leave negative feedback and that I should be aware of the consequences of my actions. This was for a neutral response, not a negative. Not all service deserves the standard "A++++" rating. Unfortunately, as long as people receive the product and it works reasonably well, that's what ebayers have been trained to write since shortly after its inception.
Now as for handling, let's look at a box of rocks I recently received. Each rock was wrapped individually in a piece of newspaper (smaller pieces of paper, not a whole sheet). Then the rocks of the same type were packaged in baggies, with the rock type labeled on the baggy. Then the baggies were protected further within the box with additional newspaper. Yes, most of the materials were free, but all of this takes time. And this type of care with my rocks I would gladly pay a handling fee on. (Location also plays a part in this argument - I have to go to the Post Office for any business, as there is no home postal service here.) So with this, as long as my final total - and this total would include an obviously stated shipping total - is a good deal, I'll bid on an auction with a higher shipping cost. But as Toad said, it has to be a good deal to me with shipping included.
As for personal grievances/pet peeves/bidding quirks.... One of mine is when the shipping costs are not stated in a manner that is easy to see. If the shipping is hidden in a three-scroll page describing the business rather than the product, I don't bid. My perception of that auction is that the seller has something to hide. But that's just my perception of the seller from the presentation on the page. And everyone's perceptions differ.
Eh. We're all different. We may live in a black and white world, but your black might look a little grey to me, and my white might look a little dingy to you.
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thehawke
freely admits to licking rocks
My Lord and Master
Member since January 2006
Posts: 866
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S&H
Mar 10, 2006 2:16:52 GMT -5
Post by thehawke on Mar 10, 2006 2:16:52 GMT -5
I don't mind a reasonable shipping fee. Time is valuable and I have no problem with paying a little extra to compensate the person. However, when I see an item for $9.99 and the S&H is over $15 (and the item does not weigh enough to warrant such high shipping), I just walk right on by.
I think no one likes to feel they are being scammed. My big problem with this is people charging super-high S&H for items are getting around paying the same seller fees I have to pay because I am honest. For me, it is that simple. I think it is highly unethical to be charging 2X the cost of the item for shipping. If they want to add a buck or so for themselves and whatever it cost for the supplies, that's fine.
BTW D/C is free if they do it online.
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S&H
Mar 10, 2006 6:40:38 GMT -5
Post by Toad on Mar 10, 2006 6:40:38 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong, if they change the rules after you win the auction, that is wrong. But if the seller states $25 shipping up front - then that is the cost. I determine if it is worth bidding on based on that - not some moral judgement on my part whether the seller is charging too much. If I win $200 worth of merchandise for $50 bucks knowing that I have to add $25 worth of shipping/handling - it is still a bargain.
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S&H
Mar 10, 2006 9:03:04 GMT -5
Post by pho on Mar 10, 2006 9:03:04 GMT -5
I miss the days when a seller/businessman was honest and fair. A hand shake was good enough to close a deal....not some 100 page contract/agreement.
We have gone too far nowdays. We complicate what should be such a simple thing.
I still like doing things the easy, honest way.
If you bought from me, I did not add in any so called handling fees. The price I quote is what you pay. No added fees for this or that...and I only charges actual shipping charges. I gave a shipping charge based on one form of shipping. But..if the buyer wanted a different form of shipping...and was willing to pay for that form..so be it...it will be shipped how the buyer wants it.
I do not like to use FedEx..but if a person buys from me and says to use FedEx..I will. No big deal there.
We can always gripe about anything......but I have found most times it does no good. The seller has his money and don't care if you are happy or not. We can (and I have) send the seller an email asking to lower the shipping costs or use a different shipper.
Handling fees are how some dishonest sellers make their money. Sell an item for a buck and add $20 handling fee. I never did and will never do that.
I start my items for the very lowest amount I will accept for that item.
Ebay was a good place to shop at one time but some people have ruined it for everyone. Yes..there are some very honest and fair sellers on Ebay....just as there are some who will cheat you out of what they can get. That's life and no one ever said life was fair.
I do agree with you.....and see you points......I just tent to try to do things in a simple and uncomplicated way.
Pho
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S&H
Mar 10, 2006 10:17:48 GMT -5
Post by Cher on Mar 10, 2006 10:17:48 GMT -5
Man you said it Pho, I miss the good ol' days too. Seems honesty was much more important back then than the almighty buck. People actually cared about how others thought of them, now it's the "If you don't like it, tough sh!t" attitude that drives the world. There very little "customer care" anymore.  |
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S&H
Mar 10, 2006 12:29:47 GMT -5
Post by texasrockhound on Mar 10, 2006 12:29:47 GMT -5
We can over-complicate anything. Sometimes it is just as simple as price of the auction plus stated shipping cost. <clip> <clip>Philosophizing about shades of gray, simplifying, complexity, dissecting meaning, sociology, psychology, coercion, equivocating, and etc... seems a great waste of time. You state that we live in a world that is shades of gray and think it trite when someone thinks in black and white. Yet you take a stand, draw a line, or whatever you want to call it - on what you think is a reasonable shipping fee. When you make your point so clearly and firmly, you are no longer operating in gray - you just made a black and white determination. Your arguement defeats itself. Have to second your opinion Toad...sometimes we can over analyze situations when a only a simple explaination is needed. Wasn't it PT Barnum who said.... 'there's a sucker born every minute' ? I don't think that questionable sales/trade practices is anything new...humans have been ripping each other off in some form or another for the last 145,000 years! The circumstances change but there will always be those who try to 'put one over' on the rest of us. While it's true that we (consumers) should be protected from fraudulant, misleading and illegal business practices .... At some point the ultimate responsibilty for consumer protection lies with the consumer! It's a dog-eat-dog world out there folks....'let the buyer beware' ...  |
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chassroc
Cave Dweller
Rocks are abundant when you have rocktumblinghobby pals
Member since January 2005
Posts: 3,586
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S&H
Mar 10, 2006 13:07:34 GMT -5
Post by chassroc on Mar 10, 2006 13:07:34 GMT -5
I am and always have been in favor of full disclosure. I like to see the delivered price and if it is not apparent I ask "what is the approximate cost of shipping to my zip code" Sometimes you do forget to ask; in those cases it seems reasonable to refuse to pay unreasonable shipping charges. Since people may not agree on what is reasonable this could lead to a disagreement; so be it.
Whenever I watch an infomercial or a shopping channel on TV, I turn to my wife and say, "If shipping is free, I'll buy that". So far I still have a full wallet!
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181lizard
Cave Dweller
Still lurking :)
Member since December 2005
Posts: 2,171
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S&H
Mar 10, 2006 13:24:09 GMT -5
Post by 181lizard on Mar 10, 2006 13:24:09 GMT -5
Holy Cow! HAHAHA boy did we all open a can of worms here!
Deb193...please smack me in the head if I ever try to get into a debate with you about a subject! (Kudo's on your ability to make us stop & think about a particular subject. Hey!, maybe I helped there too! LOL )
But seriously, yeah it's crappy that there is sooo much for us as consumers to have to deal with. (I think you could even say that would apply to us in our everyday life.) Makes ya just want to pull the covers back over yer head & not come out for a year.
I have one more thought to leave with you & I'll get off my soapbox.
I'm 46 years old, employ 25 people, have 2 grandchildren, a 76 year old mother in poor health, a 58 year old workaholic husband with his own health concerns, siblings that very possibly should seek proffessional help and my beloved dog Mojo who believes I'm the cream cheese. I look at things (for myself only) in pretty much black & white. It simplifies my life, cuts out the chaff & leaves me more time to do the things I love. (rocks! rocks! rocks!)
The negative energy I would have to expend on worrying about all the things we've discussed here on this thread are just not worth it to me. If I want something and I can afford the asking price, then that baby is MINE! If not...then some other poor sucker is gonna get it!
Liz
p.s.
could you imagine getting all of us into one room to hold a discussion about any given subject?! My lord...that discussion would never end!
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S&H
Mar 10, 2006 14:05:07 GMT -5
Post by deb193 on Mar 10, 2006 14:05:07 GMT -5
OK -
Time for me to leave this thread. I've had my say. I think I raised some good points, and those willing to think about it will ponder them. Those with closed minds will ignore them, or turn on me. I don't have anything further to contribute, and I'm not interested in argument just for argument's sake. There are many nice folks here, some of which hold opinions I will never agree with. I'm going back to rock talk and focusing on the common interests we have.
I agree that in some sense only the final price matters, and I have cogently argued that in other ways the shape of the transaction has far ranging implications.
In general I am very suspicious of arguments that rest on "its simple" or "lets not ovaranalyze" because historically a lot of wrongs have been justified by appeals to simplicity or common-sense. I will admit that some wrongs occur because things are made too complicated, but I think this discussion is nowhere near overanalysed.
Thanks to all for their contributions, but I'm moving on.
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S&H
Mar 10, 2006 14:48:47 GMT -5
Post by texasrockhound on Mar 10, 2006 14:48:47 GMT -5
Daniel - I am really surprised at your comments regarding those who dis-agree with you as having 'closed minds' and those who agree as being 'level headed'... In fact, I find it quite insulting. Maybe I am just one of those 'ignorant cretins' you refereed to earlier but I think you underestimate the intelligence of the members of this board. I think most here recognize your seemingly endless nonsensical ramblings as just so much mental masturbation with no real substance. If you would care to offer a logically constructed argument (premise - inference - conclusion) expressing your thoughts regarding the subject of S&H I'm sure it would be more well received. I have re-read your posts several times and can find no such logical architecture...only the conclusion that the system is not perfect. (Brilliant!)
Now, when you're presented with dissenting opinions and 'lively debate' regarding the topic which you initiated you have decided to 'cut and run' dismissing us as something other than normal. (closed minded and not 'level headed')....Shame on you. Your reaction is juvenile and totally discredits your previous statements.
These are the facts:
We live in free market society
We have the choice to buy or not to buy
If you don't like the deal... don't buy.
If the vendor is acting in an illegal manner, report the activity.
Seems pretty cut and dry...but maybe I'm just stupid.
Dan (closed minded ignorant cretin)
----------> This way to the Egress!
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S&H
Mar 10, 2006 15:21:24 GMT -5
Post by gemkoi on Mar 10, 2006 15:21:24 GMT -5
Everyone has very valid and important points. And as a seller in the gem trade now for over 10 years. One easily learns about supply and demand. However, as a buyer of gemstones for even longer than a seller. I know one simple fact. Most gems(i will refer them as units) do not originate in the USA. But USA is the biggest market for them. Allot of countries in the last 10 years has stopped exported rough units, and now only export finished units. Because gemstones are really a worldly market.
BUT, the reason i have found out over the years as to why vendors online jack up shipping prices or handling fees is because of costs.
For example, Anyone can get a hold of Brazilian Amethyst, and if you buy it in bulk, i got it as low as $.75 per pound of nice specimens. However in order to even make a dent in selling such overflowed units online is a complete waste unless you offer something different or new. I see many sellers doing what in my position at the time was the only way to move those units online. And that is to drop the paying cost, and jack up the shipping cost.
For anyone who knows about drop shipping, this is how 75% of drop ship vendors can actually make money selling what there is already to much of, and stuff that really has no use.
My last partner would start bidding prices at $.99, and state a $5 shipping. Each unit would weigh in rough 1/4 pound, and we would ship it frist class mail for just a dollar or so.
I dont practice these tactics because i have learned about what makes a stone valuable, outside of high end gemstones that are very trendy. And that is to offer not only top customer service, cheap shipping, (as most of my shipping is $5 to anywhere in the world) And offer unique and unusual products that are hand made in the USA.
Remember, 9 out of 10 online vendors rely on the same stone, the same cut, and the same price as big companies do. And unforctunly, most if not all these stones are cut over seas in sweat shops, were the labor cost only a few cents a day. I have yet to find a cutter over seas that does not rely on this basic method. Most beads are made this way when they are natural gemstones. And as an American Vendor, with American Costs, there is no way one can compete at all with such vendors and actually make a go at it online and for a living.
And over sea vendors who can supply rough, will still mark it up more just because as an American, i am supposed to be able to afford more. Which is rarely the case. So i work more with American mined materials, old collections, and custom work that can not be mass produced really on any level.
I even work with people who have new product ideas in which i create the samples, and they would most likely take the samples to oversea lapidaries in order to make the project cost effective in a business manner.
I never charge shipping & Handling fees, as someone stated, The only real cost to shipping anything in the USA, and other major countries, is the packing material, and or the paper for a label. USPS provides all shipping supplies, except tape, and in my case, my postman will pick up my packages for free at my doorstep. so there is no costs. I buy some bubble wrap, which last me forever, and keep my prices within reason for the work i do.
And again, its is different with finished units, vers rough units. AS i do have high costs in shipping rough, but i dont push it as much as i do finished cabs. But rough for most when purchased online is done sight unseen. Sure there photos of the rough, but you cant see them always with the proper perspective(angle) or really know what’s inside. SO with cabs, there is really nothing a buyer can be surprised with, unless the piece broke in route because of shipping problems.
So to me, its the sellers responsibility to make sure the customer is aware if such grose fees are needed to complete the sale. And as a seller, i know such things are only necessary to cover costs. But if you got high costs as a seller, and you sell trendy stuff anyone can find at any show, or online anywhere. Then you in the wrong market.
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181lizard
Cave Dweller
Still lurking :)
Member since December 2005
Posts: 2,171
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S&H
Mar 10, 2006 18:42:01 GMT -5
Post by 181lizard on Mar 10, 2006 18:42:01 GMT -5
Hey! Texasrockhound...
It's oookayyy! I really don't think Daniel truely ment for it to come out the way it did. (Can you honestly say that you've never let words fly outta yer mouth then wished you could take them back cause someone was gonna take it the wrong way? I know I have!) Sooo, I'm saying this has been a very entertaining discussion and what I find so hystericaly funny is that when I first entered into this thread to begin with...it wasn't to agree that there were unfair things going on in ebay...it was to say that there were alot of people complaining.
Please...I'm not pointing fingers. You don't think my family & friends don't call me out when I get full of __it?
Anyway...I want you two to kiss & make up...hhmmm?
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. I really would like to see more buyer-friendly tools on ebay that should over time tame a lot of the wilder handling practices. Sellers may be pressured to offer the lowest starting price to get eyes on auctions, and this may contribute to inflated handling fees. But if we could search on size of handling fee, past-buyer satisaction with shipping spees, with packing quality, with seller demeanor - well some folks would search on all those things or at least consider them. This would create a force that over time would allow all the hinest sellers to raise their listing price closer to the value of theitem and lower their handling fees.
