|
|
Post by Alice on Mar 13, 2006 10:16:30 GMT -5
This past Saturday, we went to visit the St. Raphael's Ruins. A few yards away, there was an old cemetery, so we went to go read the gravestones. A lot of them were weathered to the point where you can't read anything, but there were a few interesting ones. There's a couple that just stuck out, and I can't really make sense of them. One said in memory of __XX__ who died in 1885 at the age of 21, and his wife __XX__ who died in 1864 at the age of 18. There's 17 years between their deaths, which would make the husband age 3 when the wife died. OK, makes you think there's an error and they should have written "Mother" instead of "wife". But... Other some other grave stones are just as odd. There's another one that said __XX__, wife of __XX__ died in the 1800's , died at the age of 10. Did they really marry off children? I took pictures, if anyone is interested www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=9401644&uid=4438531The slide show tends to cut pictures off at the bottom if they're too long. You may want to view the pictures by clicking on the thumbnails on the left. |
|
|
|
Post by joe on Mar 13, 2006 10:34:24 GMT -5
Great photos Alice. You go to the coolest places. Can you adopt me?  I know I'm older than you but I don't eat much and it looks like fun to go to all those neat places! Thanx for sharing you and your kids adventures! |
|
|
|
Post by akansan on Mar 13, 2006 11:40:53 GMT -5
Well, it wasn't just the Roman Catholics who married off children back then, especially on the frontiers. It was pretty much anyone. They wanted to assure family ties and continuation of the lines...
|
|
|
|
Post by Alice on Mar 13, 2006 12:08:47 GMT -5
I'm still baffled over the fact that they married off babies and toddlers to people who were 15 years older. I can just hear "My husband just learned how to sit up", "I just potty trained husband last week".
Maybe they married kids off to the people they give their first kiss to? You know, like those sweet pictures you sometimes see with 2 toddlers kissing eachother or holding hands? Is that how they paired them up?
If a child gives a peck to another child, then they'd have to get "Married"? If a child happened to give his / her first peck on the cheek to someone older, then those 2 would have to get "married"?
What happens when the baby grows up and falls in love with someone other then his/her "spouse"? I guess I'm just having trouble with "Baby" marriages.
Marrying Teens back then, I can understand because their average life span was about 33 - 48 years old. And what a way to spend the rest of your life! (With your first love)
They needed to marry teens off to make the population bigger. And having a baby out side of wed lock was a big "no no".
Boy, times sure have changed
|
|
|
|
Post by Alice on Mar 13, 2006 12:28:51 GMT -5
LOL Joe You're more then welcome to join us any time Thanks for signing the guest book Joe. Good thing my kids kept their coats on, because the next room was "Autumn", and it was pretty chilly in there. |
|
|
|
Post by Cher on Mar 13, 2006 12:55:57 GMT -5
Those are really interesting Alice. My daughter and I like to go looking at old cemetaries, it's pretty neat reading some of the stones. The town they moved to in Iowa has some of the neatest grave markers I've ever seen. One was made to look like a little log cabin and there were several that were shaped like trees.
|
|
|
|
Post by Alice on Mar 13, 2006 13:34:38 GMT -5
There's a HUGE cemetery (and I do mean HUGE) up on the side of Mount Royal in Montreal. I've seen pictures of some really nice ones.
I think I went there once as a kid (too young to appreciate anything). It would take you a few days to walk through the entire place.
I heard on the news one day (MANY years ago) that a lot of the old graves were robbed of their grave stones and sold to antique stores. Not the parts where their names are written, but Brass and bronze Statues that were either on top or on the side of the stones. Pretty sad.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cher on Mar 13, 2006 16:33:59 GMT -5
You're not kidding that's sad when they can't even let those who have passed rest in peace. I remember one year when a bunch of high school boys, supposedly on a dare, tipped over and busted about 100 headstones in a local cemetary here. Their parents had to cough up quite a bit of $$ to get them all repaired and replaced. Now you get caught in the cemetary after dark and you go to jail for the night and get a hefty fine.
|
|
|
|
Post by docone31 on Mar 13, 2006 19:53:33 GMT -5
Has anyone figuired out why gravestones get toppled? Aside from pranking, and copycat mischief, back then, and today, a footing is set and smoothed out. The gravestone is set and leveled. Pocket coins were used to act as leveling agents. Some of the coins, while worthless, or negligable back then, are worth thousands today. Virtually uncirculated coins from the 1600's, the 1700's, etc....
Most of the topplings are for the coins. If the records are researched, gravestone topplings are done to gravestones at a certain time period.
I used to dig graves, and set the stones. I operated a backhoe, and did the landscaping at a graveyard. I could never feel ok about having a coin from someone's grave. Somethings are just to be honoured, and grave robbing is not honouring anything, no matter how small.
Even today, there are groups of people who arrange marriage at an early age. I graduated high school with a lady who had been "married" quotes are my opinion only, and the "marriage" finalized upon graduation.
It was not a fun marriage. The ceremony was great, however, the bride and groom had not really met each other. He was a pussy, and she was butt ugly. Both were incredibly wealthy but they were not happy. It was a cultural thing. I do not know what happened to them, but I still remember the wedding. He screamed out in this high shrill squeak, and she chased him, all of her and that was a lot.
There is a lot to be said for culture. I just hope there was some mercy for them from their parents. At least there will never be any children from that "happening". I know, if I were the last man on earth, and quite alone, and she was the only woman, I would still be the last lonely man on earth and some other species would be the upright species. Life would be simpler though.
|
|
|
|
Post by Alice on Mar 13, 2006 20:46:18 GMT -5
Oh absolutely there's still arranged marriages. Hindu's still do it (India).
But marrying a 3 year old to an 18 year old? That's insane! (in my opinion anyway). It would be a different though, if the 3 year old was 20 years old and was to marry a 35 year old. The 20 year old at least has some sense, and knows what he/she's getting into.
Hindu's at least wait till the bride and groom are of legal age. But now days, First they choose a "Family" that they would like her to marry into, and they put it on hold. If the bride hasn't found love by a certain age, they will then arrange the marriage with the bachelor of the family they chose when the "bride" was a baby. (I had an Indian woman friend, who told me this... she was one who had an arranged marriage and is perfectly OK with it)
|
|
|
|
Post by docone31 on Mar 13, 2006 22:58:53 GMT -5
My wife and myself have met folks, not very many, nor frequently, who had arranged marriages. The families married them off at a young age, and when they were age of majority, the formalized the marriage. These people stayed married longer than their children did! Every couple agreed, they would do it again. They are very strong couples, and individually, they were strong in their own identities. All of them said they would do it again.
I wonder, if society has accomplished their goals, when these married folks appear more free, solid, and uniquely individualistic compared with the average couple who proclaims most loudly their independance, yet are so easily manipulated by hollow words rather than examples. All one has to do is proclaim most loudly our current president caused the Korean confict, and was the author of the Vietnam war and you have their respect.
I kinda like the folks who are married 54,58,69 years who were arrainged and never met their spouses untill the wedding day. They know the difference between child raising and social control, and live by No Work, No Eat! They are real characters. They think alike, almost look alike, and respect the honour of their marriages.
When they are gone, we will have modernized that out of marriage, and I think marriage will have turned from a covenant into a contract indeed. It is hard to put to words the impact they make on me. They definately do not live by, if it feels good, do it. They seem to live by the long road, and are very content with it.
I do not know about the old days, and I am sure there were abuses as there are today. The folks I have met however......
|
|
thewiz
has rocks in the head
"What good is money if you don't spend it"
Member since January 2004
Posts: 735
|
Post by thewiz on Mar 13, 2006 23:22:38 GMT -5
see how the souls melt the snow around the stones
|
|
|
|
Post by Alice on Mar 14, 2006 0:27:56 GMT -5
Doc, Here in Canada, Divorce was always illegal (as I'm sure it was in the US). It was our former Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau who legalized it (wasn't all that long ago... less then 30 years ago). So it's no surprise to me that most marriages from Pre-legalization are still "together". For couples that have been married for 50+ years, have been pretty much set in their ways during their first 20 years of marriage, and all they've known through their entire married life is to depend on each other, and to work problems out even if it meant doing it the hard way. To them divorce is unheard of (Just from their beliefs and upbringing).
Their children were probably raised with the same beliefs as their parents, but as they grew older those beliefs have been altered by media, school, friends of other cultures, freedom of dating 4 guys at the same time, or drop one boyfriend / girlfriend and start dating another the same day, and there's also freedom of divorce. A lot of couples now days take the easy way out, and jump to divorce right away (just like their typical break ups back in high school), instead of trying to work out any problems.
|
|
|
|
Post by Alice on Mar 14, 2006 0:35:19 GMT -5
see how the souls melt the snow around the stones When I was uploading the pictures onto my computer, I was thinking the same thing Wiz. If it wasn't for the amazing weather we've had all week, and all the rain that's been pouring down... I wouldn't know what to think if I saw grass like that around the head stones, with having 2+ feet of snow everywhere else. |
|
|
|
Post by snowdog on Mar 14, 2006 0:51:28 GMT -5
I would tend to think it was a mistake on the first headstone ---tried to think of changing the 8 to a 3 or maybe a 9 --none seemed to sound better --but it doesn't make sense to marry a 3 year old boy
that said , I do know that near my dad's family --a neighbor's wife died (prob childbirth) and left him with several kids --think it was like six from 2-10, one of the other neighbors couldn't feed their own kids as the times were too hard so the 11 year old went to care for the kids while the man worked and within a couple of years he married her ---at the time he was almost 50 and her about 12-13 --but it was a way for her to survive and I'm sure he treated her good to ---I think back then people just did what they had to --to give each the best chance of living ---kids would go to work at the age of 5-6 to be able to have something to eat and a place to sleep and alot of families got split up just trying to survive
|
|
|
|
Post by Alice on Mar 14, 2006 1:02:18 GMT -5
Are you saying it was kind of treated the same way as a baptism now days?
When you're a baby you're baptized, and on the certificate it has 2 places to tick off. One says (I think) Confirmed, and Unconfirmed.
Unconfirmed meaning you never went to get baptized again as a born again "Christian"
And Confirmed meaning you were part of a parish and got baptized again
(Is that how it works?)
Either way, confirmed or not confirmed, you're still recognized by the church as "one of them"
So way back then these "baby" marriages, were "unconfirmed", and if one happened to die, you still counted as a "spouse"?
|
|
|
|
Post by Alice on Mar 14, 2006 2:14:26 GMT -5
Snowdog, I'm thinking the family of the 18 year old was promised that the girl will marry the other family's first born son. First born son didn't come until 15 years later. when the baby was born, the church made a ceremony and they had an "un-finalized" marriage (what Doc was talking about earlier). Even though their marriage wasn't "Final" the Church still recognized them as "husband and wife". so it was written on the grave stone as such. It's starting to make sense! (To me anyhow  ) |
|
|
|
Post by americanbulldogsnj on Mar 14, 2006 8:44:55 GMT -5
I'm not sure 100% about this Catholic ritual, but I am a Catholic this is what I know about it. The families would pre arrange marriages (sometimes before babies were born) and betroth (sp?) a child to a spouse. This was done for many reasons, money, status, continuation of a family bloodline, land, propterty. Anyway, these betrothals were ceromonial and were usually not to be consumated until such time as the child was old enough. I do not know how old "old enough" was, but I'd assume it was young because back then if you lived to 35 you were considered old. The child was allowed to be a child and went thier seperate ways so to speak until the child came of age. Arranged marriage is common practice in India and Arabic cultures to this day, the same reasons and rules apply. My 2 sense... ;]
|
|
chassroc
Cave Dweller 
Rocks are abundant when you have rocktumblinghobby pals
Member since January 2005
Posts: 3,586
|
Post by chassroc on Mar 14, 2006 13:32:09 GMT -5
Ah...the longevity of arranged marriages...is it greater or lesser than marriages of the heart?...if so, does that make them better?...or prove that love is real or imaginary?
We know that a large percentages of marriages fail..paradoxacally the failure rate is higher in the Godly red states than the heathen blue states...what are the comparative rates for aranged marriages vs shotgun marriages vs incestial relationships vs polygamic relationships vs love-based relationships? Inquiring minds want to know
csroc
|
|
|
|
Post by americanbulldogsnj on Mar 14, 2006 14:54:22 GMT -5
Ah...the longevity of arranged marriages...is it greater or lesser than marriages of the heart?...if so, does that make them better?...or prove that love is real or imaginary? We know that a large percentages of marriages fail..paradoxacally the failure rate is higher in the Godly red states than the heathen blue states...what are the comparative rates for aranged marriages vs shotgun marriages vs incestial relationships vs polygamic relationships vs love-based relationships? Inquiring minds want to know csroc That all depends if they leave the cap off the toothpaste or not... |
|
I know I'm older than you but I don't eat much and it looks like fun to go to all those neat places!
)
