rollingstone
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since July 2009
Posts: 236
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Post by rollingstone on May 30, 2006 19:26:20 GMT -5
Snake lover here... well, you just killed a garter snake that was only trying to escape from the humans who cornered it. They are completely harmless and can be quite beneficial by feeding on rodents like mice. If you just left it alone it would have moved on and that would have made for a much more pleasant ending, me thinks.
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WyckedWyre
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since April 2007
Posts: 1,391
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Post by WyckedWyre on May 30, 2006 19:29:08 GMT -5
Oh, Tweety - This story made me really sad. Poor little harmless snake just out of hibernation, enjoying the green grass tickling his belly and the warm sun on his back, and then WHAM! along comes the psycho humans and then WHAM! WHAM! WHAM! again and before you know it, no more little snake. I'm sure his snake family is missing him tonight. I watched my grandmother do the exact same thing to a garter snake when I was a kid and I'll never forget his limp, lifeless, bloody body dangling from that rake.  S PS: Admitted snake lover - don't even kill the poisonous ones. |
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Post by docone31 on May 30, 2006 20:10:42 GMT -5
Tweety, I understand your fear of snakes. It is almost primal in humans. In Canada, there are only two venomous snakes, the Diamondback Rattler, and Coppersnake.
Not to make you feel more guilty, you probably feel bad enough already, the garter snake also eats Copperhead, and Rattler fry. So does the black snake. A garter snake makes a lousey pet, they get ferocious in captivity. I made the mistake of finding one fresh out of hibernation and getting a cage for it. It got out and was in the house. My ex put on a glove and tried to push the snake to where we could capture it and let it go. It promptly bit my ex on the thumb and hung on. It did not penetrate the glove, and it scared the daylights out of her. With snake on her thumb, she brought it outside took off the glove and away it went, never to return. Probably thought we were aliens or Electricals and went off to warn the others.
By the by. Young Walt Disney shot a bird with his BB gun one day. His self imposed penance was to put the sad look in his characters eyes. He spent his life devoted to animals. Untill his company got forced out by leveraged buyout, He was exclusively an animator of animal stories, and children stories.
I have an hard time killing animals also. Not the Southern Diamondback that chased me around the yard in Punta Gorda however. The southeastern variant challenges humans. Pygmy rattlers are particularily agressive, they will go out of their way to bite. We have found them in our walls down here. They grow to 11" in length and are quite venemous.
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Post by Bikerrandy on May 30, 2006 20:36:07 GMT -5
Most people fear what they don't understand. I started educating myself in herpetology when my dad brought my first snake home (I was 5 years old). I've been bitten by snakes more times than I could remember. None of the bites ever required stitches. It's other people's dogs that scared me. Cats don't bother me too much, I just feed them to the larger snakes. (kidding darlin) ;D The most snakes that I owned at one time was 28. Most of them don't take up too much space, they don't make much noise, and the larger ones only have to be fed once every 3-4 weeks. You want me to mail one to ya? lol
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Post by Cher on May 30, 2006 20:49:34 GMT -5
That's ok Tweet, everyone panics now and then. The main thing you should do now is to explain to your daughter that it really was wrong to kill that snake because it wouldn't have hurt anyone and if they ever see one again, just turn around a walk away. She needs to know that you killed it because you were frightened at the way it frightened her. NOT because it was a bad snake that would have hurt her.
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Post by parfive on May 30, 2006 23:12:22 GMT -5
1. There are no poisonous snakes in your part of Canada (I think), certainly not any black and yellow ones.
2. "but if you make my kid scream & cry like that you deserve to die!!" . . . . . That would seem to be hubby.
3. Didn't you just see that cute little pic w/Biker's cute little daughter w/that cute little snake.
Rich
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rollingstone
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since July 2009
Posts: 236
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Post by rollingstone on May 31, 2006 2:18:32 GMT -5
Several good points have been raised here. Like it or not, the image of Mom wailing away on a snake until it lies dead is going to be in your kids heads for the rest of their lives. NMrocks recalls her grandma beating a snake to death, my wife often mentions watching her mother kill some kind of creature (I don't recall what) with a garden tool from almost 40 years ago, and from the same period I recall being out biking with some childhood pals of mine, and finding a garter snake on the road. We stopped our bikes and tried to help the snake off the road, but some guy came along in a car and ran it over. I can still hear the sound of its body snapping under the tires, and can see it raise its head up to look around as it lay dying. (At the time, I figured he couldn't avoid it, but once I began to drive myself I realized he just killed it for the hell of it, it clearly posed no danger to him in his car.)
Since the mental imagery is going to be with your kids forever, you should try to add some proper perspective to it, as Cher suggests. All I hope is that the perspective doesn't promote a panic reaction to harmless creatures that just seek to be left alone.
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller 
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,497
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Post by Sabre52 on May 31, 2006 15:30:01 GMT -5
Sorry, snake lover here and of course I'm biased because I spend much of my retirement time working wildlife rescue but I think the solution should have been pick up the snake, have the kiddies touch it , admire it's form , it's feel, and it's beauty and thereby learn a lesson about not killing harmless creatures because of unnecessary fears. We fear what we don't know or understand and education is the answer. By showing the kind of reaction you did, you simply reinforced the fear in your children and they'll grow up to be a bunch of fearful snake killers and pass along these fears to their offspring too. Lots of snakes around my ranch including lots if huge rattlers. When I encounter them I either let them alone or if they're in a bad spot, catch them and move them to a safe location. I know them and understand their form and function and their danger but have no fear of them and do not need to kill them. Oh, and no offense intended just a reality check. In my book killing the snake instead of rescuing the snake and educating your children about it, wasn't brave. Killing the snake makes you the fearful wuss...mel
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Post by docone31 on May 31, 2006 17:13:02 GMT -5
Poor Tweety.
I do not know who is aware of it, but, all snakes are capable of injecting venom. However, not all snakes have venom, or are capable of delivering it outside of their normal diet. Garter snakes have teeth, in the back of their mouths, that are hypodermics, however, as my wife experienced, only an infection is the result. Black snakes are closely related to the Cobra, they also can inject venom, but, it is an annoyance to humans rather than lethal.
I do not know about you guys, but, I have had a snake in my grasp turn and grab hold. It has always been a non-lethal bite, but it scared the crap out of me. I catagorically agree, unless there is a need, let nature live. Everything has its place, and importance, and we do act out of fear first sometimes.
If we killed everything that scares us, or seems an annoyance, we would be overrun with their prey. Back when there was a bounty on Rattlesnakes, the snake population went down, and the mice took over in several towns. From the mice comes the fleas, the plague, etc. Just moving into their habitat makes population shifts, then the vermin arrive with a vengance! There was an amateur herpitologist back where I lived who accidently lost mated pairs of Black Mambas. They have no natural enemies here, and they have been finding fry. There are Kimodo Dragons that have been inbreeding in the Everglades. There have been some interesting reports from reptile sightings. They originally came from a golf course that the users found them amusing. They grew up, and got agressive.
Humans have an almost primal fear of snakes. It can be overcome, but, it takes a deep commitment on the part of most folks. There are those who seem to not have this fear, a lot of them are committed to teach those who do. This is a good thing, a needful thing. Here, we cultivate Black Snakes and try to get them to live on our property. They keep the Moccasins, and Rattlers somewhere else. Once I put mirrored film on our back doors, we would watch the snakes leave their burrows, pop up their heads and head off to hunt. It was exciting. We have an endangered Ringtail Snake here. I found a mating ball. It was really neat. I kept them quiet, kept the area isolated, and off they went when they were done.
I bet Tweety never embraces the lonely Garter snake, but they won't go condition white next time.
This is live and learn.
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Post by Bikerrandy on May 31, 2006 19:43:51 GMT -5
LOL, you too? I had an 11 foot reticulated python turn on me about 17 years ago. I still have scars from it, but I still absolutely love snakes. My wife and I looked at some tonight, thinking about getting Harlie a ball python (starting her out small). That's one breed of snake that has never bitten me. The only other snake that I can say that about is the hognosed snake.
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,497
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Post by Sabre52 on May 31, 2006 19:51:24 GMT -5
Howdy Docone: Heck I'm a wildlife biologist and I don't think some of what you've said is correct and I wouldn't want ya misleading folks. Now I know Blacksnake is a common name for the Black Rat Snake , the Black Racer, the Black Coachwhip and sometimes even the Indigo Snake but none of these are more than very distantly related to Cobras ( distant as in they are all snakes), Cobras are in the family Elapidae whereas the other all all Colubridae. Most taxonomists no longer accept the old superfamiles so the next step up is the order which contains all snakes. The only cobra relatives in North America are the Coral Snakes. When you lump them like that and say they are closely related you just scare all the folks that can't tell one snake from another and get harmless snakes killed. Also Colubrids don't have hypodermic type fangs. Many have a rear fanged mechanism that is grooved and capable of delivering mild venom but I'd be pleased to read any reference material you have that says otherwise. Must admit though that I've often been curious about this subject as I've seen racers grasp big Dipsosaurus ( Desert Iguanas) and the big lizards just gave up without any struggle almost like there was a neurotoxin in play. A classmate of mine in college was studying invenomation though and could isolate no particular protein that would be a venom. Curious though as I've also seen this happen with fish and amphib eaters like Gartersnakes in Calif and Watersnakes back east. Do you have a reference re venom isolation in Colubrids? I still work with snakes a lot and would be very curious to read more on this matter.. And Doc where are you from anyway I'm in Ojai and There are no blacksnakes by any common name in So. California, No Water Moccasins at all in California and no such thing as a ringtail snake in any book on US reptiles I have. ( though we do have Ring-necked Snakes....mel
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,497
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Post by Sabre52 on May 31, 2006 19:53:49 GMT -5
Randy: Your daughter will love a ball Python. In my opinion one of the most mellow and beautiful of all snakes and they son't get big enough to try and swallow your leg while you're sleeping *L*.
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Post by krazydiamond on May 31, 2006 19:54:11 GMT -5
i am ambivalent about snakes. i stepped on one with barefeet and scared me as much as scared snake. (imagine woman jumping straight up 5 feet).....i give all little creatures a wide berth if i have a choice. you in my space mofo, you dead. that especially goes for mosquitos at 3am.
Tweet, get a bug and amphibian book for your kids, knowledge is power. fear is hard to overcome. i am unbelievably afraid of bees, and it's all my mother's fault. she was afraid and i got it from her. i see some folks that are just OK with bees and i want to be there. i'm better than i was, but i am still uncontrollably afraid of the little guys.
KD
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Post by Bikerrandy on May 31, 2006 20:54:35 GMT -5
Mel- yep, I've had a couple of them, most mellow of all snakes. I'd get one for Harlie without a second thought. Here's Amanda when she was a little one with one of the ball pythons....  |
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Post by docone31 on May 31, 2006 21:41:40 GMT -5
When I had a shop in Key West, right in front of me was the Snake Man. He had a yellow snake about 12' in length and he made a living shoving the snake on someone's neck, and frightening them into paying for his photo. One photo with the snake was 30$. It was a top rate polaroid at that.
That was a pretty mellow snake. It got handled all day, day in, day out, 7days a week for three years. One day though, it latched onto a young person's face. It had either had enough, was stressed, or triggered by something. No real damage, just little pin holes on her face. I did not see what happend to trigger it, just that the snake was attached to her face. I guess it all worked out. He was there the next day. We lost our shirts with him in front of us.
Sabre, you are probably correct on the black snakes in terms of being related to the Cobra. When I heard about it, I did some cursory checking. Not being a snake lover, nor hater, I kinda buried it in the back files. I do know, the Black Snake has its fangs in the rear of the mouth. Just like the Coral Snake, you have to be actually in the mouth to have the fangs dig in. Garter snakes have a bacteria.
What I used to love watching with our yard friends, was when they left the burrow, they would slowly move to the same spot each morning. They would extend straight up with their heads pointed forward, weathervane the wind, and each one of them would go in a different direction each morning. There were two ridges on the sides of their head to neck region that would expand like little deadrises, like Tuna have. When they would lower themselves to go whatever, they would retract the deadrises, lower and off they went. It was really neat. Untill we put up the mirrored film, they had nothing to do with us.
We had a tree climber who suddenly jumped out of a tree we had him trim. Right after him was an Eastern Diamondback, about six feet long, maybe fourn inches in diameter. Followed him right out of the tree.
Where you are, the Rattlers avoid human contact. Down here in Floriduh, they will repel humans, dogs, cats, and anything else within their territory. My wife from the west was more than suprised when I was fertilizing our lawn, and I got chased by a Rattler. I had to hit him with the fertilizer rig to get him to back down. He was really serious. I was used to Rattlers retreating first, only attacking when cornered, suprised, or protecting eggs. This one came out of the woods next to the house.
We have a Glass Snake here, which really is a legless lizard. They tear up the yard, stink to high anything you can think of, and are never seen unless dead from something. Each morning, there are raised rows in new spots in the yard. They eat Mole Crickets.
When I see the Garter snakes, Black snakes, Indigo snakes, Racers, I know my yard is empty of Rattlers, Moccasins.
You should have seen the Pygmy Rattler migration across my front walkway about three years ago. It looked like worms, I let em go their way. We also have Coral Snakes, very rare this far north, and another snake that kinda looks like a Coral snake. They belong here, were here first, and they leave me alone. Cool to see in the afternoon. They live there, I live here, and somehow we fit.
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S
